JUNE 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Phantom Lord]

I figure it can't be too long before they merge the shows and we get only one respective champion. I'm sure the Fox people are gonna love that. Honestly I'm not surprised. This is the same shit Vince has done over the last 15 or so years. Ratings tank...find a scapegoat and one of his yes men get promoted. Meanwhile EVERYTHING we see has to be signed off by him. If it ends up sucking it shouldn't be on Heyman or whoever. It's on Vince cause he signed off on it.

This doesn't even take into account all the times he's ordered re-writes of the show damn near up until show time. Sometimes even after. So he has no one to blame but himself. But he'll let the company die a fiery death before he'd ever admit that. 

[Jenalysis]

On 6/2/2020 at 6:14 AM, Technico Support said:

He's still around.  I just watched a AAW card from a few months ago (pre-pandemic of course) where he wrestled TJP.  Now that I think about it, that's pretty funny that they put two guys with "attitude problems" who "flamed out" in one match.  I thought Impact was the promotion where all the guys nobody else wanted went to work.

 

MLW took over for Impact.  They had Low-Ki, Teddy Hart, Austin Aries , LA Park, Pillman Jr all last year.

 

[Curt McGirt]

Aries and Hart are gone. Impact took over again with Callahan, Blanchard, and Elgin. 

[paintedbynumbers]

9 hours ago, AxB said:

The Big Swole vs Chakara match from Riptide Wrestling in Brighton (England) was fantastic, wasn't it? And Lee Moriarty has been on twice (so far). Which makes sense, because he's awesome.

Believe it or not Lee Moriarty is 10x better than the guys who trained him. I haven't seen someone rise so fast personally since Shima Xion/ DJ Z/ Joquim Wilde.         The only other guy I can think of that has rocketed so quick would be Darby.

Also,

why is nobody talking about Vince buying Evolve?

[AxB]

Because nobody cares about Evolve?

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, alstein said:

 

MLW took over for Impact.  They had Low-Ki, Teddy Hart, Austin Aries , LA Park, Pillman Jr all last year.

 

 

3 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Aries and Hart are gone. Impact took over again with Callahan, Blanchard, and Elgin. 

You could start a promotion just for "difficult" and "cancelled" wrestlers.

Can someone explain what happened with Sami Callihan?  I don't pay much attention to the latest sleaze and all I know is he accidentally hit Eddie Edwards with a bat and he started a big problem with security at an AAW show (accidentally, he said). 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Vince not happy about RAW numbers? I’m shocked, shocked! Absolutely shocked that ratings are bad for the fakiest 3 hour wrestling without real fans. It also doesn’t help that the financial crisis is about to get worse again with the spike in COVID cases. This shit must have Vince, and creative shook that this will go on way longer than they expected for this setting. 

Edited June 12, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Dolfan in NYC]

I'm guessing they took a massive bath on Mania.  Vince has to be looking ahead and know that if there's no vaccine, there's no way they can have 90,000+ people in Los Angeles next April, and that could very well kill the company.  

Vince not being happy should not be a surprise to anyone.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

With Pritchard taking over I wouldn’t be surprised that they go with less in ring stuff in the future. More of the Hardy DUI shit. but if it’s all for a empty arena wrestling match in the end... It’s like . Wrestling is really rough right now when trying to attract a TV audience with this. It’s an extremely impossible endeavor that I can’t see no easy answer without completely blowing up the way wrestling works. And I’m not talking about “cinematic matches”. I’m saying it might need to get more radical than that. Like dumping commentary, and belts radical. 

[Technico Support]

Prichard, man.  Fucking Prichard.  He won the oldest game in WWE.  "Just do whatever Vince would do and you'll have a job forever."

[mattdangerously]

2 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Can someone explain what happened with Sami Callihan?  I don't pay much attention to the latest sleaze and all I know is he accidentally hit Eddie Edwards with a bat and he started a big problem with security at an AAW show (accidentally, he said). 

Alleged wife beater.

[Casey]

25 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

More of the Hardy DUI shit.

Boy, wait until you see/hear about what they've got planned for Sheamus and Jeff Hardy tonight on Smackdown.

Spoiler

Supposedly Sheamus demands Jeff be drug tested. He pees in a cup, and throws it in Sheamus' face.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Prichard, man.  Fucking Prichard.  He won the oldest game in WWE.  "Just do whatever Vince would do and you'll have a job forever."

Even then, Bruce has been fired twice (1991, 2008). He is about due to get fired again.

[AxB]

12 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Yeah, I'm loving it a ton. There's way too many quality wrestlers that I never knew about. But it's been a blast. Do they normally put these on demand? I need to rewatch to track down those that stood out to me. 

This is 100% worth watching.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

23 minutes ago, Casey said:

Boy, wait until you see/hear about what they've got planned for Sheamus and Jeff Hardy tonight on Smackdown.

  Hide contents

Supposedly Sheamus demands Jeff be drug tested. He pees in a cup, and throws it in Sheamus' face.

 

Wait, I thought Heyman wasn’t booking anymore?

[Peck]

What did Meltz write about the Creative situation in the WO? 

[RIPPA]

5 hours ago, paintedbynumbers said:

why is nobody talking about Vince buying Evolve?

Is there a source beyond the IRISH INSIDER~!

[RIPPA]

1 hour ago, Peck said:

What did Meltz write about the Creative situation in the WO? 

Spoilers because it is long - and the only reason I am posting the whole thing is because otherwise it will get twisted in about 48525201 different ways

Spoiler

The continued decline in WWE ratings have led to a change at press time as Bruce Prichard will take over as full creative head under Vince McMahon starting immediately and Paul Heyman, at least in theory, will return to just being a television performer.

WWE announced on 6/11, “In an effort to streamline our creative writing process for television, we have consolidated both teams from Raw and SmackDown into one group, led by Bruce Prichard. Paul Heyman will concentrate on his role as an in-ring performer.”

Heyman was working with dual contracts, a performer’s contract and an employee management contract, the latter of which was terminated on 6/11.

Raw had been doing its lowest ratings in its history during the pandemic but every wrestling show has had similar drops. What was notable is that the idea that Vince McMahon even said himself at the last conference call was that Raw was introducing so many new stars and it would take time to get them over, but claimed the numbers would bounce back when the new stars got over. When Heyman was hired in June, he apparently pushed the idea that they had to create new stars, and this would take 18 months or longer for them to build the credibility to be stars with the new audience.

It’s said by those close to the situation that once COVID-19 started that McMahon’s mentality changed about everything. Previously, the mentality was all about the future. The XFL was a long-term play. Raw under Heyman was a long-term play. Expanding NXT into Europe and Japan, and opening up other markets under Paul Levesque was a long-term play. Now the mentality is to worry about what you have and think about now, even though the company is going to be more profitable this year and next than probably any time in its existence. McMahon was also frustrated believing that much of the new talent being pushed wasn’t getting over, and with no live crowds, it was pretty much impossible to tell what acts truly are and aren’t starting to get a following. The reality is it won’t be until a month or more after crowds return that you may be able to ascertain that aspect of what is and isn’t working. But ratings weren’t good, but Raw still was the show drawing the highest ratings and best 18-49 numbers by a wide margin when viewed realistically, based on the number of homes that actually have access to the channel.

Coming at press time, the little reaction we’ve gotten were from people who were not shocked and said there had been signs for a few weeks of this coming. But much of the talent was stunned and it’s unique because the Raw talent crew right now very much has his fingerprints.

There was a joke that nearly two decades ago Heyman built Smackdown around the so-called Smackdown Six. And that now he was building Raw around the Smackdown Catering crew, noting that most of the people on the show where people who were on Smackdown and getting no television time, such as Andrade, Zelina Vega, Buddy Murphy, Aleister Black and Apollo Crews, as well as AOP who were being pushed to be a modern Road Warriors/Demolition like top tag team.

There were issues of late, in the sense that Becky Lynch, the biggest draw, hasn’t been able to do a match since WrestleMania due to finding out she was pregnant. Samoa Joe has been out with a concussion. A.J. Styles switched brands. AOP is out due to Rezar suffering a torn biceps. Kevin Owens was out until recently. Brock Lesnar isn’t around. Vince McMahon got cold feet on certain talent. But there are always injuries and Vince always gets cold feet and all of this just goes with the territory. The reality is that everyone who works closely with Vince other than Kevin Dunn will get under his hair and fired. Prichard himself was fired twice. Heyman had two other prior runs with creative power and both fell apart, never really having lengthy tenure.

Raw had been doing record lows in the ratings most weeks. Much of the decline was pandemic related given every other show also had declines, particularly in the 18-49 audience. Raw numbers were actually more impressive than those of Smackdown given that Raw has the third hour dragging it down, but moreso, FOX is in more than 110 million homes and Raw is in closer to 86 million. FOX has also promoted Smackdown much harder ths year than USA has promoted Raw. But Raw is always viewed as the flagship show.

This opens up a lot of questions. Among them is what happens to certain Heyman projects, people like Drew McIntyre, Andrade, Rey Mysterio, Austin Theory, The Street Profits, Viking Raiders, Murphy, Black, Angel Garza, Vega, Crews, Asuka, Charlotte Flair and Nia Jax that he had been building on Raw. Without live crowds, it’s really hard to know what was and wasn’t working except using quarter hours, and occasionally women’s segments did well and the Viking Raiders/Street Profits games segments didn’t, but otherwise it has been a show filled with new talent that wasn’t going to get over without organic live crowds, which also can be said for every promotion.

One person on the front office side said, “I am shocked it took this long. Everyone knew it was coming. Vince did not like Paul.”

Much of the talent on the Raw side was concerned, for obvious reasons. Most had never had a national push. Some had languished on the main roster before Heyman.

There definitely were underlying signs for the past few weeks that indicated something was going to be done. Moves are always made when ratings are down and to an extent Eric Bischoff, Prichard and Heyman were all viewed coming in as potential scapegoats for the larger systematic problem.

Heyman came in just as Lesnar’s manager, but in time, had certain newer talents that he pushed hard for and was also heavily involved in all creative decisions, promos and angles with Lesnar, Bill Goldberg and Ronda Rousey. It is completely unknown if he’ll work with some people and do some stories like in the past, or just disappear and not be around until Lesnar returns and he’ll just be his television mouthpiece.

Goldberg being brought back on Smackdown as a stop gap guy to put Bray Wyatt over was a sign that Heyman’s vision of Goldberg as 1977-80 Bruno Sammartino, the guy who comes in once or twice a year and vanquishes a heel to pop interest, was done. Goldberg actually beat Wyatt and won the title when McMahon changed his mind, and then the idea was that Goldberg would be fed to Roman Reigns in a marquee WrestleMania match, which also ended up not happening.

If Heyman is just used for Lesnar, that means he wouldn’t be around much at all, since Lesnar isn’t around. If he will have his old role, it would mean he would be around every week helping with promos and vignettes.

Still, with the exception of people like Edge, Seth Rollins, Charlotte Flair and Randy Orton, who are locked at the top due to tenure as stars and proven ability to talk, this would open up a question as to virtually every other wrestler on the Raw roster, including McIntyre. The belief is that McIntyre and the Street Profits are liked by McMahon and are probably safe, although they will be more subject to the whims of booking that may or may not protect them as well. As far as everyone else, it’s anyone’s guess.

Heyman had pushed the idea of 18 months or longer, with the idea the company wasn’t making stars and needed to create new stars, particularly that appealed to younger fans. At the same time, McMahon has a notorious lack of patience and the joke is that if you don’t get over with him in three weeks that he loses interest, with the obvious cases of Ricochet, Humberto Carrillo and Cedric Alexander coming to mind.

McIntyre had been booked with the idea of creating a super cool babyface star of the company. It was impossible to know if it would click without crowd reactions, but ratings didn’t show life in recent weeks after McIntyre had overachieved in some segments in the build to WrestleMania and prior to the pandemic.

Not all was rosy. The Street Profits-Viking Raiders tag team feud was taking forever to get to a match and their vignettes, while sometimes entertaining, were not doing well in the rating every week. Seth Rollins Monday Night Messiah gimmick seemed boring, but was building to a program with Rey Mysterio and son Dominick that in theory had a destination.

It also could lead to a roster consolidation, which is usually what happens in WWE when ratings drop, with the idea of putting the top guys on both rosters on both shows increases the star power. It’s a stop gap measure that historically has worked, but also gives less time for talent on the rise.

It’s hard enough to do two hours, let alone three, so the idea Prichard would be in charge of five hours seems very difficult. But whether Prichard is the guy Vince needs in charge is something you can debate, but he’s going to write what he perceives Vince wants and if Vince doesn’t want it, he’s not going to argue it. He’ll book the people based on how Vince has traditionally seen talent. But the workload is a question. And there are many other questions regarding creative coming out of this.

Comparing Raw and Smackdown numbers has a number of problems. Smackdown has the obvious edge of being available in roughly 26 percent more homes. Raw has the edge of being on Monday, where more people are home watching television, and Monday being the historical wrestling night. Of course in the last few months, people stayed home on Friday more than any other time in modern civilization. In addition, because news channels are on cable, those 26 percent of homes who don’t have the news channels but do get local stations and the big four networks would in theory be affected less by the huge gains in news viewership.

Raw also has the disadvantage of the third hour dragging down the average. But in comparison, Raw has been down greatly from last year, and it has aged as well over the past year. That’s noted by far greater declines in the key 18-49 demo than in overall viewers since the over 50 decline by percentage is so much less than every other age group. Smackdown, being compared with a number on USA, has increased from last year, although its audience is older and aging faster than the Raw.

Raw can’t be even close to expectations of what USA Network wanted, made worse by the pandemic decline. FOX can’t be happy either, as they were talking 1.0 in 18-49 and now are consistently get half that. But they don’t have the same huge drop from the same time period from last year to point to.

In 18-49, even with the added homes that FOX is in, and the added promotion, the numbers were equal. This past week, Raw did 684,000 in the key demo to 656,000 for Smackdown, and Raw had the disadvantage of hour three taking down its average.

Expect things to be different on Raw, likely with more hot-shotting and Heyman was playing more for the long game. It’s unclear if it was going to work and the move shows McMahon lost confidence in the direction and the idea of a new vision of who can get over. It will probably mean more of what McMahon believes works based on his experience.

 

[RIPPA]

Also for the Dave doesn’t know anything folks - Sean Ross Sapp appears to have similar reporting. I’ve only seen recaps of that since I’m not a member of the Fightful Pateron

 

[Craig H]

Man, I have no idea how accurate any of that is as much of it is just speculation on Meltzer's part, but the whole thing reminds me a lot of WCW in it's dying days. All we're missing is someone else taking over at USA and/or Fox and deciding that they don't want wrestling.

Even still, at least with USA, nothing is drawing well. Hell, USA is shifting to more reality TV programming (RIP Characters Come Here, or whatever that was).

But all of the switching of bookers and leaving workers' heads spinning is so much like WCW where it was this lazy susan of shitty bookers with Bischoff, Nash, Russo, Russo and Bischoff, Kevin Sullivan, and on and on. Each on had an idea for how to use under-utilized talent, someone else takes over, and then everything is up in the air again.

It's amazing how short-sighted Vince is. It took YEARS for WWF to dig out of the hole it was in, even when they had Austin, DX, Mankind, Undertaker, and the Rock.

[Curt McGirt]

2 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Wait, I thought Heyman wasn’t booking anymore?

Spoiler

Piss is definitely a Vince thing. 

 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Now wait a minute Paul did that same angle first at Cyberslam 99. Vince is more of a chocolate guy anyway.

Edited June 12, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Curt McGirt]

Who did the Cyberslam deal?

[The Natural]

5 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

  Hide contents

Piss is definitely a Vince thing. 

 

NSFW.

 

Edited June 12, 2020 by The Natural

[LoneWolf&Subs]

1 minute ago, Curt McGirt said:

Who did the Cyberslam deal?

Tommy Dreamer, and Storm