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JUNE 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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I can see the reason why Baba was against submissions. A fighter that submits lacks strength in a sense. A fighter that gets his head knocked off in losing retains his honor. In a sense Baba was following the Bushido code.

I've also always known Doc's driver to be a Backdrop Driver.

I would absolutely love to see Cornette in FTR's corner in AEW. There is not a chance that AEW would lose their following if they brought him in for a program. As Easy E always says- "controversy creates cash". Whether the full audience for AEW knows all the backstop- or cares - remains to be seen. 

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40 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

I would absolutely love to see Cornette in FTR's corner in AEW. There is not a chance that AEW would lose their following if they brought him in for a program. As Easy E always says- "controversy creates cash". Whether the full audience for AEW knows all the backstop- or cares - remains to be seen. 

Given the news of the last week, I would say there's a pretty big reason that it would backfire there.

To put it a better way- given the controversy that got Jim Cornette fired from NWA, how can AEW put out comments saying "Hulk Hogan has been blackballed from All Elite Wrestling for his racist comments 13 years ago and he will never work for AEW", while at the same time bringing in a guy fired from NWA for racist comments just a few months ago?

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5 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Today I learned that they named an elementary school in Ontario after Tiger Jeet Singh. 

Reminds me of this screengrab from a few years ago:

school-face.jpg

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26 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Given the news of the last week, I would say there's a pretty big reason that it would backfire there.

To put it a better way- given the controversy that got Jim Cornette fired from NWA, how can AEW put out comments saying "Hulk Hogan has been blackballed from All Elite Wrestling for his racist comments 13 years ago and he will never work for AEW", while at the same time bringing in a guy fired from NWA for racist comments just a few months ago?

Amazingly (or maybe not), jim said today that hes been getting tweets and emails from people surprised he was not on the side of the racist cops killing black folks. 

Edited by odessasteps
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38 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Today I learned that they named an elementary school in Ontario after Tiger Jeet Singh. 

This was actually something Cornette and Brian brought up on one of their podcasts recently when someone asked a question about Tiger Ali Singh's run in WWF.

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11 hours ago, Edwin said:

Before Baba passed, he wanted Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue who are also referred to as the Four Pillars, to create a new in ring style

Your timeline is a bit hokey, there's like a seven year period between Baba giving these men the ball to run with and Baba's death. And even before that you've got Hansen being brought in as the instigator toward that more physical go-go-go AJPW style away from the classic NWA style with its emphasis on DQs

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15 hours ago, Edwin said:

I've been watching Japanese pro-wrestling for some 20+ years, but thanks to @D.Z I learned something new and I'm not sure it's common knowledge as most of the time folks mostly just talk about match reviews and results and not about history in detail. He mentioned the term pro-wrestling shitenno a little bit ago and I remember going back and forth with him on the topic, but he never went much into detail.

Shitenno means four heavenly kings. Before Baba passed, he wanted Misawa, Kawada, Kobashi and Taue who are also referred to as the Four Pillars, to create a new in ring style in which they could get away from the previous era of matches being bloody brawls with foreigners relying heavily on the use of weapons and the matches ending in no contest, DQ's and count outs. The Four Pillars began developing the head drop heavy style as they thought that was the best way for them to beat each other to the point of exhaustion and being able to win clean by pinfall.

Of course Akiyama was later added to that group and they were called gokyo which means Top 5 and after the All Japan and Noah split, Misawa, Kobashi, Akiyama and Takayama became the four pillars of Noah.

That bit of history is something kind of missing for a lot of foreign fans who've been following for years as we mostly just got best of comps. in the tape trading community and a lot of folks didn't really bother with full TV blocks or year sets back then.

Also, I had no idea Steve Williams' backdrop was called the satsujin backdrop which translates to murder backdrop as it was a high-angle backdrop which is news to me.

Anyway, just thought I'd share that bit of meaningless nerdy trivia with you folks.

The term Shitenno itself comes from Buddhism and was later used to describe famous groups of retainers and Samurai generals. Later on, it was used for judokas. I think it's a bit silly referring to wrestlers as Shitenno, but apparently the fans and media have done it since the 60s when Inoki, Baba, Oki and Yoshimura were considered Japanese Pro-Wrestling Shitenno. The Japanese magazines do love naming everything. They had a name for the Tsuruta vs. Tenryu feud -- The Tsururyu Confrontation (or Crane Dragon Confrontation) based on the nickname for the Tsuruta/Tenryu tag team (Crane Dragon Combi or simply Crane Dragon.) 

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I've always wondered if Jumbo accidentally spiking Tenryu on a powerbomb--knocking him out--to emphatically end the first Triple Crown defense influenced Baba's thinking regarding the stylistic drift towards head-drops and violent, decisive finishes based off of them. (Video begins at the finish.)

Also, the famous 6/9/95 tag happened 25 years ago today. Whatever the style was called, that was as good as it--or any other, I think--could be.

Edited by Beech27
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12 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Given the news of the last week, I would say there's a pretty big reason that it would backfire there.

To put it a better way- given the controversy that got Jim Cornette fired from NWA, how can AEW put out comments saying "Hulk Hogan has been blackballed from All Elite Wrestling for his racist comments 13 years ago and he will never work for AEW", while at the same time bringing in a guy fired from NWA for racist comments just a few months ago?

Exactly. I can't see any situation where a progressive, "woke" company as AEW markets itself to be brings in Cornette.  Aside from being fired for the racist commentary, didn't he say something on his pod about how AEW should be exploiting Nyla Rose's trans status for a gimmick or angle?  I know there are two Jim Cornettes: the real dude who can be a calm rational, smart wrestling historian who is a joy to listen to, and the worker who is just a gross person who conducts himself like it's still the territory days and wrestling hasn't progressed since 1982.  Cornette can't help himself from being the latter, especially when it counts.

Also, we've seen the Cornette cycle happen over and over with lots of companies and the guy never met a bridge he didn't end up burning.

  1. Get hired
  2. Honeymoon period
  3. Cornette's issues get in the way of acting like a rational human being and shit blows up
  4. Get fired
  5. Talk shit on the former company on any platform he can get

AEW doesn't need that shit.

Edited by Technico Support
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9 hours ago, BurningBeard said:

Your timeline is a bit hokey, there's like a seven year period between Baba giving these men the ball to run with and Baba's death. And even before that you've got Hansen being brought in as the instigator toward that more physical go-go-go AJPW style away from the classic NWA style with its emphasis on DQs

Correct, but I wasn't explaining the entire chronological history of All Japan, just how Baba embraced that more physical and head drop heavy based offense style we would see from the Four Pillars primarily from 1992 and on which was the pro-wrestling shinotten I mentioned in the post.

The 70's to mid 80's was the period with those wild, bloody brawls with the foreigners such as Hansen, the Funks, Abby, the Sheik, Brody and co.

Then in the mid to late 80's you have the Choshu, Tenryu, Tsuruta, JPW era and then in the early 90's you had Tsuruta, and Hansen continuing to work a more physical style but not as reluctant on head drops. That was the style that was an influence to Baba in embracing the style entirely plus adding in the head drop heavy based offense he would later notify the Four Pillars he wanted his main events to revolve around moving forward.

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13 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Given the news of the last week, I would say there's a pretty big reason that it would backfire there.

 

Have you heard Cornettes views on the news of the last week?

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3 hours ago, Beech27 said:

Also, the famous 6/9/95 tag happened 25 years ago today. Whatever the style was called, that was as good as it--or any other, I think--could be.

Today is also the 2nd anniversary of the Okada vs Omega Seven Star match.

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8 hours ago, BurningBeard said:

And even before that you've got Hansen being brought in as the instigator toward that more physical go-go-go AJPW style away from the classic NWA style with its emphasis on DQs

I always thought it was Choshu responsible for picking up the pace when he jumped from New Japan. 

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30 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I always thought it was Choshu responsible for picking up the pace when he jumped from New Japan. 

The thing that helped is Choshu had that whole stable of guys who came with him that also worked the style. Hansen and Brody weren't exactly working slow but the Choshu group coming in basically rewrote a significant portion of every show through the midcards which really kicked things in the ass.

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Yeah all those tags are quite speedy as I recall. Looking it up the Ishin Gundan/JPW crew was a lot bigger than expected. Akira Taue originally even started with them before transferring to the AJ Dojo which was another surprising fact. 

Spoiler

Alumni[edit]

Riki Choshu (returned to NJPW)

Masa Saito (returned to NJPW)

Haruka Eigen (stayed with AJPW)

Animal Hamaguchi (retired, returned to NJPW in 1990)

Kuniaki Kobayashi (returned to NJPW)

Isamu Teranishi (stayed with AJPW)

Shinichi Nakano (stayed with AJPW)

Killer Khan (returned to WWF, retired shortly thereafter)

Yoshiaki Yatsu (stayed with AJPW)

Fumihiro Niikura (hiatus after suffering a heart attack during excursion in North America, joined Pioneer Senshi as a freelancer)

Norio Honaga (returned to NJPW)

Shinji Sasazaki (returned to NJPW)

Masanobu Kurisu (stayed with AJPW)

Hiroshi Hase (was on an excursion in North America during his entire tenure, went to NJPW upon returning to Japan)

Kensuke Sasaki (went to NJPW)

Hidetoshi Yamamoto (retired)

Tatsumi Kitahara (was a trainee, transferred to AJPW Dojo upon dissolving)

Akira Taue (was a trainee, transferred to AJPW Dojo upon dissolving)

Tag Team and Stables

Calgary Hurricanes (Super Strong Machine (returned to NJPW), Hiro Saito (returned to NJPW), and Shunji Takano (stayed with AJPW))

Kensuke Sasaki, Koki Kitahara and Super Strong Machine briefly returned to AJPW as freelancers in the mid-2000s.

 

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Finishing up the FTR interview. Laughable how Cornette thinks these guys are going to come in and change the entire culture of this organization.

The last 20 minutes or so are moments of cringe after cringe. They repeated about 10 times they hadn't signed with AEW and how they wanted to knockout the Young Bucks because they felt disrespected or something along that line.

Given these guys have clearly signed, it will only be a matter of time before Cornette turns on FTR and he rants for 25 minutes on his show after they face Matt Hardy and he changes clothes and character in a freezer during a match with them similar how to turned on Jericho and Matt after the Stadium Stampede.

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2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I always thought it was Choshu responsible for picking up the pace when he jumped from New Japan. 

I’m just going off what was written in Hansen’s book. Paraphrasing off the top of my head, when he came over he told Baba he wasn’t interested in working the classic style that was prevalent in AJPW back then and Baba told him he wanted him precisely because of how he worked as AJPW business was in the dumps and needed to change 

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IWTV got Big Japan on board. To go along with Freedoms, Zona 23, GCW and the rest, it's really getting the Death Match promotions all in one place.

Also they're doing a Black Lives Matter stream on Thursday evening, showcasing the top African American indie talent that's around right now. Proceeds to BLM. Probably be really good.

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3 hours ago, Edwin said:

Finishing up the FTR interview. Laughable how Cornette thinks these guys are going to come in and change the entire culture of this organization.

The last 20 minutes or so are moments of cringe after cringe. They repeated about 10 times they hadn't signed with AEW and how they wanted to knockout the Young Bucks because they felt disrespected or something along that line.

Given these guys have clearly signed, it will only be a matter of time before Cornette turns on FTR and he rants for 25 minutes on his show after they face Matt Hardy and he changes clothes and character in a freezer during a match with them similar how to turned on Jericho and Matt after the Stadium Stampede.

I do believe both Jim and the FTR are working.  And it feels like, whether or not it happens, there’s a possibility he rolls in for dynamite cameo.

4 hours ago, bazzil said:

Have you heard Cornettes views on the news of the last week?

I stopped listening randomly after realizing the child’s mentality he has concerning Omega and things that hurt his feelings.  ‘To each their own’ and exactly that.  I came back for the stadium rant and then this FTR interview.  Jim’s opening for this broadcast will be scrutinized because of his previous off colour joke (tough to compare to the Huckster’s rant), but I thought this intro was the best thing I’ve heard from him in some time.  

Also, the tandem rant on Tony Khan banning the Hogans was pretty hilarious.

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Whoa, IWTV has Sendai Girls too? Hmm, that, GCW, and Big Japan is pretty tempting. And the annual deal is not too bad at $100 USD compared to other subs. I had it whittled down to just NJPW World prior to the pandemic and now it'll probably be NJPW, IWTV, and DDT.

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