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JUNE 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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7 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

It’s an extremely impossible endeavor that I can’t see no easy answer without completely blowing up the way wrestling works. And I’m not talking about “cinematic matches”. I’m saying it might need to get more radical than that. Like dumping commentary, and belts radical. 

Even a "dump commentary and belts" would be more likely to be the final blow than anything- if there's nothing to make anyone special on the roster, then eventually no one will care. Even AEW's question marks of breaking through should make it clear: The only way you'll get a boom period is getting lapsed fans or non-fans to watch, and they don't care about "this guy's really really good at putting on a fake fight!"

If they get more radical than that, it'd be less likely to happen for get rid of commentary or belts in ways that people in the bubble might like for getting radical and blowing up wrestling, and do things that would blow wrestling up in ways non-fans would take notice. I'd be more likely to assume radical like "Get rid of the wrestlers and replace them with celebrities", or something else similar to that.

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9 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

With Pritchard taking over I wouldn’t be surprised that they go with less in ring stuff in the future. More of the Hardy DUI shit. but if it’s all for a empty arena wrestling match in the end... It’s like ??‍♂️. Wrestling is really rough right now when trying to attract a TV audience with this. It’s an extremely impossible endeavor that I can’t see no easy answer without completely blowing up the way wrestling works. And I’m not talking about “cinematic matches”. I’m saying it might need to get more radical than that. Like dumping commentary, and belts radical. 

Well, I certainly can't get behind that.

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I listened to an episode of Kris Zelners Between the Sheet podcast covering a week in May of 2001 and I didn't know how committed Vince McMahon was initially to making WCW a legit separate brand from WWF. It was the Viacom network that had the hurdle that really stopped him from going all the way with the idea which caused Vince to lose interest in the Entity of WCw. I know alot of the initial brand split idea came from the WCW buyout but it would've been so different for alot of those WCW guys on the Titan Payroll if Vince was able to pull his idea off. I'm not so naive to believe that theyd still have alot of political bs to deal with but just that initial investment by Vince and crew would've made for some interesting 9 months or so atleast by keeping WCW separate, atleast enough to keep their own identity. I'm sure we would've gotten more intermingling between WWF and WCW than there should've been based off what we've seen between RAW and Smackdown but it would've kept guys like DDP and Booker stronger and maybe even encourage people like Goldberg or Sting to get on board for money matches with Austin or Rock ect. Even alot of the WCW talent in developmental would've probably gotten better treatment.

Even if Vince was able to pull it off, I still don't believe it would last too long but I think it would've been way better for WWF than that Invasion angle that happened and if was a factor in business going down.

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2 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Even a "dump commentary and belts" would be more likely to be the final blow than anything- if there's nothing to make anyone special on the roster, then eventually no one will care. Even AEW's question marks of breaking through should make it clear: The only way you'll get a boom period is getting lapsed fans or non-fans to watch, and they don't care about "this guy's really really good at putting on a fake fight!"

If they get more radical than that, it'd be less likely to happen for get rid of commentary or belts in ways that people in the bubble might like for getting radical and blowing up wrestling, and do things that would blow wrestling up in ways non-fans would take notice. I'd be more likely to assume radical like "Get rid of the wrestlers and replace them with celebrities", or something else similar to that.

I mean I don't disagree, but at the end of the day wrestlers are a thing unto themselves and it doesn't work without them. Otherwise, things like Battle Dome would have been way more popular than they were. Even these cinematic matches, yes they're just "fight scenes" but it's still two pro-wrestlers within the construct of a pro-wrestling narrative as versus something like, I don't know, a kung-fu movie where yes, you've got the same type of action in every one, but your guy could be a cop, hitman, criminal, etc. I'm surprised no one has licensed like, Mortal Kombat or some kind of comic book property and tried to do something vaguely resembling pro-wrestling with it.

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6 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

I listened to an episode of Kris Zelners Between the Sheet podcast covering a week in May of 2001 and I didn't know how committed Vince McMahon was initially to making WCW a legit separate brand from WWF. It was the Viacom network that had the hurdle that really stopped him from going all the way with the idea which caused Vince to lose interest in the Entity of WCw. I know alot of the initial brand split idea came from the WCW buyout but it would've been so different for alot of those WCW guys on the Titan Payroll if Vince was able to pull his idea off. I'm not so naive to believe that theyd still have alot of political bs to deal with but just that initial investment by Vince and crew would've made for some interesting 9 months or so atleast by keeping WCW separate, atleast enough to keep their own identity. I'm sure we would've gotten more intermingling between WWF and WCW than there should've been based off what we've seen between RAW and Smackdown but it would've kept guys like DDP and Booker stronger and maybe even encourage people like Goldberg or Sting to get on board for money matches with Austin or Rock ect. Even alot of the WCW talent in developmental would've probably gotten better treatment.

Even if Vince was able to pull it off, I still don't believe it would last too long but I think it would've been way better for WWF than that Invasion angle that happened and if was a factor in business going down.

I think about this almost every single day. It's maddening. Buildings were booked!!

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3 hours ago, Doc Townsend said:

Everyone knows drugs are the most stable currency in pro wrestling.

The real loser in the shakeup is Apollo Crews.  Wednesday, he still had his first championship in the WWE.  Friday, he's throwing his phone into the ocean and changing his email address.

Speaking of how Vince books, did he operate in the late 1980's and early 90's like he does now?  I really don't know who booked shows in 1989 or so.  Vince and a group of sycophants?  I didn't start hearing about Creative and the writers until somewhere around the Attitude Era.

The thing is, back in the day you had marathon tv tapings with weeks in the can so you pretty much had to commit to storylines.That was also one of the great things about early NXT. Nowadays things change on a weekly basis based on Vince's whims and fancies.

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We've seen what WWE without commentary looks and sounds like. Edge vs Randy Orton at Mania, and Gargano vs Ciampa on NXT TV. Those were presented as Pro-Wrestling fights, not 'cinematic matches' like the Wyatt and Undertaker Mania deals were.

Oh, and they were both really boring. The WWE commentators are annoying and feel unnecessary, yes. But it's one of those things where the solution isn't to get rid of them, the solution is for them to be less annoying and try to do what they can to enhance the on-screen experience, instead of incessantly detracting from it. They shouldn't be gone, they should be better. Good commentary adds to a match. For all the facetiousness about "Add one star for Reseda, add two stars for the Tokyo Dome", there are things that can make a match good that aren't down to the wrestlers in the ring. Location isn't one of them, but commentary can be*.

* Even if it's mostly not in English. That 90s AJPW guy who screamed at big moves, he was good.

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1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

 I'm surprised no one has licensed like, Mortal Kombat or some kind of comic book property and tried to do something vaguely resembling pro-wrestling with it.

I'm here for the WMAC Masters reboot!

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2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I mean I don't disagree, but at the end of the day wrestlers are a thing unto themselves and it doesn't work without them. Otherwise, things like Battle Dome would have been way more popular than they were. Even these cinematic matches, yes they're just "fight scenes" but it's still two pro-wrestlers within the construct of a pro-wrestling narrative as versus something like, I don't know, a kung-fu movie where yes, you've got the same type of action in every one, but your guy could be a cop, hitman, criminal, etc. I'm surprised no one has licensed like, Mortal Kombat or some kind of comic book property and tried to do something vaguely resembling pro-wrestling with it.

 

I still remember the shitty Battle Dome/WCW crossover.

 

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3 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I mean I don't disagree, but at the end of the day wrestlers are a thing unto themselves and it doesn't work without them. Otherwise, things like Battle Dome would have been way more popular than they were. Even these cinematic matches, yes they're just "fight scenes" but it's still two pro-wrestlers within the construct of a pro-wrestling narrative as versus something like, I don't know, a kung-fu movie where yes, you've got the same type of action in every one, but your guy could be a cop, hitman, criminal, etc. I'm surprised no one has licensed like, Mortal Kombat or some kind of comic book property and tried to do something vaguely resembling pro-wrestling with it.

You've forgotten the Blood Runs Cold angle in WCW with Mortis, Glacier, and Wrath.

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11 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You've forgotten the Blood Runs Cold angle in WCW with Mortis, Glacier, and Wrath.

Glacier was literally Sub-Zero.  And that's why they don't do those angles.  Because they fucking sucked.  And people who pitch Mortal Kombat angles don't realize, they DID.  And they failed miserably.  The problem too is, Glacier beats Wrath and Mortiis...then what?  Mortis feuds with Hacksaw Jim Duggan?  The heels are done.

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37 minutes ago, sydneybrown said:

  The problem too is, Glacier beats Wrath and Mortiis...then what?  Mortis feuds with Hacksaw Jim Duggan?  The heels are done.

In defense, though, that is a bigger problem than just "A Mortal Kombat angle would be terrible."

Yes, Blood Runs Cold was terrible as a Mortal Kombat-inspired storyline in 1996-97 and had all those problems.  What other time did we get a Mortal Kombat-inspired pro wrestling promotion? Lucha Underground. And Lucha Underground was one of the most acclaimed promotions of the last decade. 

The issue is more a "how do you make it work in the kayfabe of the promotion?", not just "A Mortal Kombat angle would suck".  Lucha Underground made it work because the whole kayfabe of the promotion was built around "this is basically Mortal Kombat with wrestlers", and so it was the defining point of the story. WCW couldn't, because again- there's no way to bring the wrestlers out of this angle and merge them with a greater WCW storyline- and short of something like "The NWO are financing Wrath in his attempt to get the prize here", there really is no way to merge Blood Runs Cold into regular WCW programming.

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7 hours ago, Ramo2653 said:

I'm here for the WMAC Masters reboot!

I was trying to think of the name of that! It was slightly before my time, but I've read about it - was there not some sort of tangential WWF involvement?

4 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

You've forgotten the Blood Runs Cold angle in WCW with Mortis, Glacier, and Wrath.

And fucking shame on me for that Ed! What I was thinking was something a lot like that in presentation - picture an American Gladiators/Impact/WCW Pro type studio where it's basically one of those Batman stunt shows at Six Flags but.. hey, look, a wrestling ring

4 hours ago, Casey said:

Charlotte would win it, I bet.

You're right of course, but the other likely move is having Charlotte stay far away from the tourney and cutting the "Nia/Bayley/Sasha Bitchcakes/God, why do I suck?" promo the next night on Raw

Edited by Zakk_Sabbath
Edit: I hadnt refreshed and didn't see the LU discussion but that's a really great talking point. LU with some money behind it, on a channel/platform people actually get, I maintain would have been borderline mainstream popular
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4 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

Glacier was literally Sub-Zero.  And that's why they don't do those angles.  Because they fucking sucked.  And people who pitch Mortal Kombat angles don't realize, they DID.  And they failed miserably.  The problem too is, Glacier beats Wrath and Mortiis...then what?  Mortis feuds with Hacksaw Jim Duggan?  The heels are done.

Just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing with you. It makes no sense for an AEW, WWE, or any traditionally styled promotion etc. to do that. If it's within the confines of it's own universe and there are "rules" within that construct (for example in wrestling the Irish whip, running the ropes in general, or the catapoult - no basis in reality, but they just *are*) then it's a different deal. Obviously if it's just shoehorned into a regular ass episode Dynamite or SmackDown or whatever it's going to be the shits

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6 hours ago, sydneybrown said:

Glacier was literally Sub-Zero.  And that's why they don't do those angles.  Because they fucking sucked.  And people who pitch Mortal Kombat angles don't realize, they DID.  And they failed miserably.  The problem too is, Glacier beats Wrath and Mortiis...then what?  Mortis feuds with Hacksaw Jim Duggan?  The heels are done.

 

That's when you repackage Mortis as newcomer Chris Kanyon, and Wrath ended up ok as half of Kronik.  Maybe let them do NJPW for a year so folks forget about them some.

 

 

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Babyface World Champion Drew Galloway/ McIntyre defending the Title on a PPV, against vicious heel Bobby Lashley. WWE Backlash 2020, or Impact Slammiversary 2016?

EDIT: Looking at the Slammiversary 2016 full card. The only people on it who are still there are Eddie Edwards, Mahabali Shera and Rosemary (Crazzy Steve left and came back; Gail Kim retired but still works backstage). Meanwhile you've got loads of NXT wrestlers, or Covid-released WWE talent, and a few NWA and AEW people. And Jessie Godderz, of 'Why is nobody using the obviously marketable Jessie Godderz?' fame.

Edited by AxB
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