EL HIJO DEL SECRET SANTO: Match Club

[Godfrey]

Ishikawa/Murakami

I've never been as all in on the worked shoot style as some people but this match is prime BattlArts. Murakami is such a dick, going after Ishikawa right away and peppering him with slaps and kicks and jumping on him if he goes down. Ishikawa has the cooler head and finds his opportunities to go after Murakami's legs to keep him off his feet. I like that Murakami tips his hand early, he can strike but not hard enough and his ground game is weak where as Ishikawa can take the shots and throw back as good as he gets but controls when they go to the mat, and eventually that plays into the finish. The fight into the audience was amazing and I loved them squaring off a few rows deep, surrounded by fans. The finish is a little out of nowhere which is my main criticism of this style of match even though it makes perfect sense in context. Great sprint.

[Curt McGirt]

Quack vs. ZSJ: I loved that match. It felt like there could have been three more of them afterwards, because this one felt like the exhibition one. Only toward the end did it get stiff and felt like it was getting down to the real shit. For my second Quack match I have to say he is impressive, for my twelve or more ZSJ match he is great end continues to get better. The whole thing was just flat out fun for the kids and myself. Maybe I'm actually younger than I feel? 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

6 hours ago, Super Ape said:

Haven't heard from you yet, but I am interested in contributing to this project.

Go read Matt D's first post in this thread, Ape. This project is not the same as the previous one.

Edited June 16, 2020 by gordi

[Curt McGirt]

Orange Cassidy/Homicide: Well I had no idea what this was gonna be like. Orange's character has been a bit of a mystery to me overall, which seems stupid to say, but it's so weird that it has baffled me; its purpose revealed itself with this match though. Homicide stomping down the intentionally insulting fool was great, and I loved his possible escapes only to be foiled again. Both guys are great. I need to see way more Homicide and Orange I'm sure I will see plenty of. 

[Lamp, broken circa 1988]

Yuki Ishikawa vs. Kazunari Murakami

I’m going to back off and let other people be the majority of this discussion because I could yell about this match for hours- everything I think is beautiful about professional wrestling appears in this match. Drama, history, violence, logic, monsters, underdogs, danger, power, shittalking, all of it. That it does each of these things excellently is a bonus. That it doesn’t waste a single second of its 9 minutes is art.

Also, sorry about the weird quality dailymotion. My first pick disappeared on me and I had to rip that in a hurry so the aspect ratio is all weird.

Dan Kroffat vs. Rob Van Dam

It’s still weird that we let “Rob Van Dam” be a thing. I wonder if one day there will be a new wrestler named Braden Statham or something. The armwringer kicks from Rob were fucking funny. Made it look like some kind of proto Low Ki/Amazing Red match. Also loved the super uncooperative rollup segment, because it looked like two athletes trying to pin/not get pinned. Super Green RVD fascinates me, because it’s hard to tell if what he’s doing is out of excitement or if the awkward timing is the nerves of the moment. Either way his athleticism carries it the rest of the way and it makes it feel more real in a way you couldn’t make a career out of. Kroffat’s Cavernaria is one of the most fucked up submissions I’ve ever seen. Rob’s float over on the vertical suplex is amazing and a thing I’d like to see someone pick up because wow. The home stretch is largely great, aside from the martial arts strikes in the corner and the Powerbomb/Gutwrench thing?? Rob DIES off the lariat and gets to go out kicking out of shit looking like a bright prospect who’s strong enough to not stay down but not enough to come back. I dont know what the fuck that finishing move was but I buy that landing on your face like that would put you out, so fair enough. Good match!

[Beech27]

Ishikawa vs Murakami

I have a real fondness for the post-90's-boom era of Japanese wrestling, this promotion, and these wrestlers. So, this match is a favorite for me as well. It is something new and something old, immediate and evocative. 

Murakami is a reckless dickhead. 4 ounce gloves. Kickpads. Hair gel. And the goddamn eyebrows, that sneer enough for the rest of his face--though the rest does participate with cartoonish enthusiasm. 

Ishikawa is here to defend pro wrestling, and his home promotion. Black trunks. Taped fists. And a stern countenance. 

Inoki isn't here, but his presence is. 

Murakami starts how Murakami always starts: swinging. He connects plenty, and with some velocity, but not with enough technique or focus to finish Ishikawa. If you're fighting the "Terrorist of Heisei", you can't give in to terror, and must instead rely on your skills, and the patient application of them. Real confidence over bravado. 

Ishikawa surviving this way is the story of basically every exchange. He gets caught, but he can get things to the mat and slowly pull Murakami out into deeper waters. Murakami doesn't learn. And so, he gets beat. One perfect punch and one perfect hold. 

I think @Lamp, broken circa 1988is right about the history here. Both the history each wrestler brings, and the history they represent. Pro wrestling as a fighting sport, fighting other fighting sports. But you don't need any of that, really. If you're steeped in American mythology and pop culture alone, you recognize the young itchy trigger-finger standing in the middle of a red dirt road, facing the old steady shooter, who moves once, and decisively. And on a moment-to-moment level, it's thrilling violence. Love it. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Beech27

[Matt D]

18 hours ago, Super Ape said:

Haven't heard from you yet, but I am interested in contributing to this project.

You and @Smelly McUgly are on deck to pick matches for next week. 

Edited June 16, 2020 by Matt D

[Matt D]

Ishikawa vs Murakami

The joy of (good) shoot style is that every shot matters. Every attempt at offense opens you up for a potential vulnerability and the match can end at any point. The downside is that while every moment matters, it's hard to tell longer-form fabricated stories. Everything has to be in the moment. It's much harder to set something up for later in a match. Instead, they have to rely upon the personalities and techniques. It's natural, implicit storytelling, but the stories that they can tell have to be smaller and more intimate because of that. If the personalities don't click, if there's not a balance of skills, there's almost nothing they can do. Here, of course, the personalities absolutely click, with Ishikawa's quiet intensity and Murakami's loud face. It's hard to point to any one thing here, as it's a constant flow of seeking opportunities, paying for the attempt and every shot being earned (often at a cost). Does the brawling on the floor and the tumble into the chairs matter more than the triumph of Ishikawa actually locking in the Indian Deathlock that came before it, or Murakami answering by kicking him out of the ring? Or the sheer daring (yet foot first caution) of his leap off the apron that immediately followed. And is any of that worth more, necessarily, than the moment of hesitation and caution Ishikawa manifested as he started to head back into the ring or Murakami showing that the caution was warranted? You see what I mean? I don't think there's any great genius in design here. What there is instead is total commitment to the reality of the moment. When the force of personality and the mutual abandon and intensity rise to the moment, you get something like this. Just like every attempt at offense in the match, it's a huge risk, though. Here it's one that's wholly worth it.

[Matt D]

RVD vs Kroffat

It's really impressive how they win the crowd over here. By the time they do the first real stand off after a bunch of missed kicks, the crowd is totally engaged. That's telling because they were sitting on their hands completely when RVD did his first stretch drop down into the back springboard into a cross body, which in my mind was pretty spectacular and hit perfectly. So much of that, to me, is Kroffat. I like him so much because he (much like Onita in his own, very different way) brought Memphis into Japan. Kroffat is basically the only guy in the decade that endowed AJPW with overt elements of being a heel. Case in point: RVD skillfully lands on his feet after a hip toss and moves right into the next spot. Kroffat lands on his feet after the somersault monkey flip in the corner and he gets his arms up and struts. To RVD's credit, he saw what Kroffat was doing and immediately resonated with it. THAT as much as the high speed and missed kicks, is what got the crowd engaged. Likewise, this sequence: Kroffat escapes a Romero Special by rolling through the ropes. He stalls on the floor in the middle of AJPW 1995 Title match. When he finally makes it back to the apron, he spits at RVD and jumps off to stall again. This sets up a flurry by Van Dam, bounding over the top, jumping off the apron with a kick, hitting a suplex onto the mat outside the ring, and then ending it with a moonsault. In 1995, I'm pretty sure Dave and anyone else would have just gone on about how spectacular Van Dam's stuff was and how that made the moment, but it's 85% Kroffat's stalling, spitting, walking away cockily, bumping into the rail and then basing for Van Dam that made this. It almost didn't matter what Van Dam did so long as Kroffat got his comeuppance. That he did spectacular stuff (And that Kroffat was able to follow it with his own brand of spectacular) takes it over the top, but without the fundamental (and frankly, given the setting, selfless and risky, especially for a champ) heeling to draw in the crowd, none of the rest would have mattered. He did a great job of balancing competence and vulnerability. My favorite moment of that was when he cut off RVD's attempt at a bound to the top (probably for the split legged moonsault) by kicking him, from the ground, in the ankle, only to open himself up for a few mean kicks. Yes, he looked brilliant for the first, but RVD still got over on him despite that. Both guys look great in the process. Van Dam, on the other hand, was exactly what you'd expect him to be. An amazing prop, even more innovating and risk taking and fearless than he would be a few years later. He was certainly quick to get his next thing in. For a lot of the match that was fine, but it was more of a problem in the stretch. The biggest sin was eating a whip into the rail and rushing right back up to the top to hit something. That was the only moment where it really bothered me. Anyway, this was exciting noise with at least one brilliant character to underpin it. Though he'd interact with the crowd much better five years later, I can fully believe that this is RVD's career match . I don't necessarily believe that it's the best non-pillars AJPW 90s match though, not in a world with guys like Fuchi and Hansen and Kikuchi and Williams and yeah, Furnas/Kroffat.

[SirSmUgly]

On 6/16/2020 at 7:47 AM, Matt D said:

You and @Smelly McUgly are on deck to pick matches for next week. 

You can give my pick to someone else; I'm right in the middle of crunch at work. Maybe I can join if y'all are still doing this in a couple of weeks instead. 

[Beech27]

RVD vs Kroffat

Best non-pillars 90's AJPW match* sounds like a fascinating deep dive. Jumbo and Tenryu were a few months early to make this a much easier conversation than it otherwise would be--but then, this isn't presently the conversation at all. 

I haven't watched an RVD match in a long time, or this match before. Kroffat, I've seen plenty of, and recently. 

Both are tremendous athletes, and that become immediately obvious. RVD reminds me of the old Dead or Alive commercial in which various young men monotonously intone that the prodigiously proportioned women in the game "kick high." Well, he does do that. And Kroffat provides the structure to really make his high kicking--and jumping, and splitsing--as useful as possible. It would be easy for him, instead, to go spot-for-spot, and build the whole match like the mini-standoff they begin with. He wisely does not do that, however, showing just enough flash to make RVD's athleticism look even better--because he cannot match it--and enough heeling to make it feel like earned triumphs.  

And RVD's stuff does look good--we have to give him that much. He already sells by shouting OOF and then moving on a moment later, and generally doesn't seem interested in anything except the next thing. But the next thing is good, and exciting, and the crowd is invested. 

All Japan's juniors didn't always adhere to the typical King's Road formula as strictly as the heavies, but this mostly does. RVD is clearly going to lose before he does, and it takes a big scary finisher to put him away. A generous conclusion to a generous performance by Kroffat, and RVD does everything you'd ask a relatively green 25-year-old athlete to take advantage of that generosity. The only disappointment one feels is not with this match itself, but with the fact that RVD wouldn't really get better than this. 

*Funny coincidence, then, that this crowd got to see possibly the best pillars match as the main event on this very show, as it's 6/9/95.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Beech27

[Godfrey]

Dan Kroffat/Rob Van Dam

Rob Van Dam can be a hilarious wrestler at times. Sometimes his matches look more like a floor routine than a fight and he's never been shy about underselling everything and anything short of a shotgun. Some would say he's never had a good match, others say he was one of the best ever. One thing is true, nobody wrestles like Rob Van Dam. Even the way he runs the ropes is unique, dropping into splits instead of a basic drop down, and it's these flourishes that led to his popularity and his many excesses. Early in his career it makes him look like a wrestling prodigy, a young kid so good and athletic he's making things up as he goes even if a lot of it doesn't make sense. I like Rob in All Japan, he's focused, he works a headlock, his highspots tend to flow better and fit within the context of the match. That's all amplified by Kroffat (who I keep calling Lafon in my head) controlling the match. Kroffat shows a lot more personality in this than his WWF run, although I don't think he and Furnas tried a heel turn until far too late in their run there. He's all over RVD here with eye gouges, hair pulling, and a nasty gourdbuster on the floor. There's a couple fat sentons that would do Dick Togo proud. Kroffat doesn't always sell that well either but he gives Rob a chance to show all of his stuff, even that funny version of a Jackhammer, and takes a few kicks to the head like a real champ. They tease the Tiger Driver enough that when Kroffat gets it it makes for a great near fall and the finish is a proper death move to put down the upstart. Fantastic juniors match and I wish Kroffat got to do more stateside.

[Curt McGirt]

This brings up a question. Sabu and RVD, I can see being in All Japan because they were trained by the Sheik and he had suction with Baba. But how did Tommy Dreamer show up there? Did Heyman do a talent exchange? 

[odessasteps]

I just heard that discussed on BTS, but can’t remember the answer. The funny thing some other ECW guys in Japan at the same time for a different company.

[Godfrey]

Heyman worked with a few Japanese companies over the years like FMW and Michinoku Pro. I wonder if he made those connections himself or if he had his own Sonny Onoo to be an in between.

[Curt McGirt]

It could have been Victor Quinones. Headhunters worked ECW a couple times.

EDIT: Or shit, good old Terry

Edited June 20, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Super Ape]

On 6/17/2020 at 2:49 PM, Smelly McUgly said:

You can give my pick to someone else; I'm right in the middle of crunch at work. Maybe I can join if y'all are still doing this in a couple of weeks instead. 

Same. The past few days have really shaken my interest in wrestling to the point where I'm starting to wonder if I want to pay into it anymore.

[Matt D]

I don't know guys. Maybe we should take a week off? What do people want to do?

If I was going to suggest something, maybe it'd be something like Octagoncito vs Mini Abismo Negro

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Matt D

[Curt McGirt]

The pick I sent you was comedy oriented so maybe it could lighten the load a bit. I'm definitely down for some lucha minis action too.

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

The pick I sent you was comedy oriented so maybe it could lighten the load a bit. I'm definitely down for some lucha minis action too.

I think your mailbox is full and I never got what you tried to send me. Clear it out a bit and try again. I was going to maybe suggest Sayama vs Fujiwara too but I'd rather it not be all my show so I'd rather have something you pick as a second and we'll regroup for next week.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Matt D

[AxB]

On 6/17/2020 at 1:24 PM, Matt D said:

Ishikawa vs Murakami

The joy of (good) shoot style is that every shot matters. Every attempt at offense opens you up for a potential vulnerability and the match can end at any point. The downside is that while every moment matters, it's hard to tell longer-form fabricated stories. Everything has to be in the moment. It's much harder to set something up for later in a match. Instead, they have to rely upon the personalities and techniques. It's natural, implicit storytelling, but the stories that they can tell have to be smaller and more intimate because of that.. I don't think there's any great genius in design here. What there is instead is total commitment to the reality of the moment. 

 This is one of the major issues with Shootstyle matches - the more 'realistic' they are, the less able they are to incorporate in-match story and build. The idea of targeting a limb to set something up for later in the match doesn't work, incremental selling isn't really a thing. People are hurt or they aren't. And if they are hurt, the match is over.

But at the same time, this match also showed the main difference between shootstyle wrestling and MMA. Which is that it's never boring. You don't need to watch many MMA shows before you see a defensive stalemate, or a fight in which one fighter is clearly well aware that waiting out the decision is the safest possible result. Plenty of hugely anticipated MMA fights are either boring and lack intensity, or what are anticipated to be titanic clashes of legendary warriors turn into 13 second squash KOs. Whilst in a shootstyle Wrestling match, a good shootstyle worker can give you a sharp, intense match that feels like an epic encounter every time they're supposed to. And that's what this match was. The intensity never let up, both wrestler's characters were clearly defined (even before the match started) and maintained throughout, and it seemed credible and believable throughout.

 What counts as bad technique in MMA (for example, taking your opponent's back and going for the choke without first securing the hooks) counts as good work in shootstyle, because it can be a false finish spot. Leaving openings is good, because having a guy break out without openings detracts from the credibility.

[Matt D]

Ok guys, 

No one is obliged this week or any other but if people want to watch some things that are fairly well distanced from everything that's happening, we have two this week. I'd rather that we pull together just in case people need something not attached to the current scene. We're in this together, be it during a pandemic or a legion of perverts, monsters, and creeps.

Curt gave us:

And as above, here's a placeholder pick from me:

We'll regroup mid-week and see if people want to pick for next week. 

[Matt D]

Damian vs Naniwa

There are a lot of different ways to measure the success of a wrestling match. Star ratings are one of the least interesting ones, if you ask me. I like to think about what they set out to do and whether or not they accomplished it. I'm not entirely sure what they set out to do here, actually. It was a comedy match with enough fireworks to fit the setting, but still clean the palette of the crowd in the midst of bigger spotfests. It had elements of lucha comedy but the primary narrative was Damian calling out different wrestlers and hitting their spots. The crowd seemed more bewildered than anything else, maybe because Damian didn't let things sink in before he rushed to his cosplay. Damian's a fascinating wrestler, probably one I don't think about enough or at least broadly enough. My immediate image of his is older and in bloody brawls, but he had the Ultraman/Galaxy stuff too, and plenty of years as almost too cool a heel as part of Mexico's Most Wanted. You watch those performances where he just sucks the tecnico's air out of the room and you watch something like this and it's obvious just how much he gets it. With that in mind, you wonder if this was all a pandering gimmick to get over with the Japanese crowd or if he really loved the scene and wanted to pay tribute. I don't have much to say about Naniwa here except for that he was very giving, which isn't that hard to do when you're going over, but he certainly let this be the Damian show. 

[Beech27]

Gran Naniwa vs Damian 666

I feel like I remember hearing talk that Damian goofed off in this match, annoyed at having to lose to a 17-year-old, and not getting to face Liger in the next round. But I can't find anything to say that's true, or was ever even a popular rumor. So, that's probably not what this was. 

But it was strange. Damian wrestles like he expects the crowd not to know him, but he'd been in FMW for years at this point, and the whole posing/chanting thing at the start shows he's not a stranger. Still, he makes it very clear that he knows of several Japanese wrestlers. As spot-stealing comedy goes, he's incredibly unsubtle. The humor in aping Misawa or Muto is in wiping your nose and pulling up your trunks after an elbow, or skittering off the ropes and up the buckle in characteristically arrhythmic fashion. He just yells names and does their moves. 

But somehow, it's charming, and maybe funnier for being not that funny? Like he's making fun of comedy wrestling while doing it. Maybe. It's hard to say, but I smiled a lot. Their genre trope comedy worked better for me, doing slow motion strike blocks, leaps for no reason, etc.

[Pete]

41 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

Gran Naniwa vs Damian 666

I feel like I remember hearing talk that Damian goofed off in this match, annoyed at having to lose to a 17-year-old, and not getting to face Liger in the next round. But I can't find anything to say that's true, or was ever even a popular rumor. So, that's probably not what this was. 

But it was strange. Damian wrestles like he expects the crowd not to know him, but he'd been in FMW for years at this point, and the whole posing/chanting thing at the start shows he's not a stranger. Still, he makes it very clear that he knows of several Japanese wrestlers. As spot-stealing comedy goes, he's incredibly unsubtle. The humor in aping Misawa or Muto is in wiping your nose and pulling up your trunks after an elbow, or skittering off the ropes and up the buckle in characteristically arrhythmic fashion. He just yells names and does their moves. 

But somehow, it's charming, and maybe funnier for being not that funny? Like he's making fun of comedy wrestling while doing it. Maybe. It's hard to say, but I smiled a lot. Their genre trope comedy worked better for me, doing slow motion strike blocks, leaps for no reason, etc.

Jun Kasai did the exact same bit against Sami Callahan at the wXw show I saw in Union City when they ran a mini tour.

"HARLEY RACE!" *throws headbutts, hurts head*

TBF, he'd already worked Necro Butcher in a really violent death match that afternoon (this was a double-shot with CZW), and he was hilarious doing the gimmick.