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MAY 2020 WRESTLING CHAT.


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1 hour ago, Casey said:

Serious question - what's the metric for success here? NXT has been a complete flop since they moved to network television.

I’m not denying that they’ve done poorly against AEW as far as ratings go, but NXT is still viewed by quite a few people (I can’t give an exact number since WWE doesn’t publish them) weekly on the WWE Network as it’s always in the top 5-8 most watched programs on there. It’s also produced excellent Take-Over network specials that I think most will agree are better than the WWE Network Specials (or PPVs whichever you want to call them).

The last thing I’ll say for the success of NXT, and I realize a good part of it was Dusty Rhodes doing before he passed away, but look at the main event guys on the main roster, and how many came from NXT. Out of the following who can you say would have been a main eventer if it wasn’t for NXT?:

Roman Reigns

Bray Wyatt

Big E 

Otis (who I don’t consider a main eventer, but still)

Baron Corbin

Seth Rollins

Drew McIntyre

Bayley

Sasha Banks

Charlotte Flair 

Asuka

Becky Lynch 

 

The only ones I’d say for sure would have made it to the top of the card if NXT didn’t exist are Roman and Charlotte, and that’s more for who they’re related to than any talent they’d shown when first hired. Everyone else on that list greatly benefited from NXT, and having Triple H and his crew work with them. 

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Some of those names I'll give you but NXT did exactly zero for Drew McEntyre. 

30 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

I’m not denying that they’ve done poorly against AEW as far as ratings go, but NXT is still viewed by quite a few people (I can’t give an exact number since WWE doesn’t publish them) weekly on the WWE Network as it’s always in the top 5-8 most watched programs on there. It’s also produced excellent Take-Over network specials that I think most will agree are better than the WWE Network Specials (or PPVs whichever you want to call them).

The last thing I’ll say for the success of NXT, and I realize a good part of it was Dusty Rhodes doing before he passed away, but look at the main event guys on the main roster, and how many came from NXT. Out of the following who can you say would have been a main eventer if it wasn’t for NXT?:

Roman Reigns

Bray Wyatt

Big E 

Otis (who I don’t consider a main eventer, but still)

Baron Corbin

Seth Rollins

Drew McIntyre

Bayley

Sasha Banks

Charlotte Flair 

Asuka

Becky Lynch 

 

The only ones I’d say for sure would have made it to the top of the card if NXT didn’t exist are Roman and Charlotte, and that’s more for who they’re related to than any talent they’d shown when first hired. Everyone else on that list greatly benefited from NXT, and having Triple H and his crew work with them. 

 

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20 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

It’s also produced excellent Take-Over network specials that I think most will agree are better than the WWE Network Specials (or PPVs whichever you want to call them).

A business that buys WWE that doesn't care about wrestling, and is only concerned about profit, wouldn't give two shits about the quality of a Takeover event or a main roster WWE Network special.

One could argue that the only thing NXT has really done is improve the image of women's wrestling inside of WWE.

Roman Reigns being on the list isn't exactly fair either, since he debuted at the end of October, and a few weeks later would be on the main roster as part of The Shield. He's more of a testament to the success of FCW, if anything.

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2 hours ago, MavsFan77 said:

Fox isn’t getting rid of the guy that was the main spokesperson for the company when they signed the deal for Smackdown. Plus look at the success he’s had/is having with NXT. Even if either company cleaned house Triple H isn’t going anywhere. 

The only ones I’d say for sure would be let go are Vince, and his moron puppet Dunn. They could easily replace Dunn with Jeremy Borash. Now the thing I’d worry more about is if the company gets sold, and Triple H ends up with the main roster job, and HBK takes over NXT. I don’t think I can take 30-45 minute main events every week that have a million finishers in each.

Getting his teeth kicked in by Dusty's kids while producing zero difference makers on brands that matter? Tell me more....

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

On that note, I l tracked a podcast Bull did recently (I believe it's the Joshi podcast). Apparently, the match that ultimately ended her career was a tag match with Hokuto against Cutie and Mayumi Ozaki on Nitro. Towards the end of the match, Hokuto goes to the top while Nakano does the joshi obligatory hold them by the back of the head while your partner does a highspot. Except this one was going to be a miss. Cutie and Ozaki move out of the way, and Hokuto does a somersault plancha RIGHT ON Bull's right knee and apparently dislocated the knee. Bull is on the ground screaming in pain, and SOMEHOW managed to get herself on the apron for the finish, which was like a minute later. Okay, I'm being very loose with that because she gets on the apron just like Austin "rolled up" Owen at Summerslam 97. To be frank, she is laying flat on her back on the apron in excruciating pain.

Did WCW not a system in place for legit injuries? I say that because the only person who checks on Bull after the match is Hokuto because she knows something is really wrong. That and she saw when she got up from the plancha that Bull was in agony. Between that, it taking forever to get to Buff when he broke his neck, and what happened with Sid, they didn't stop matches for shit. If you were fucked up, they let it play out.

(Sorry for quoting the whole post but my phone is not letting me delete!)

Don’t forget one of the most egregious when a 50-year-old Paul Orndorff collapsed and seemed incapable of moving and instructed the young guys to work around him and the match continued with him just laying though someone did finally end up stopping it.  I remember seeing that match on TV and thinking he was legit dying while they tried to wrestle around him.  

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1 minute ago, caley said:

(Sorry for quoting the whole post but my phone is not letting me delete!)

Don’t forget one of the most egregious when a 50-year-old Paul Orndorff collapsed and seemed incapable of moving and instructed the young guys to work around him and the match continued with him just laying though someone did finally end up stopping it.  I remember seeing that match on TV and thinking he was legit dying while they tried to wrestle around him.  

Yeah, I was going to edit my post and put that one in there. However, I didn't remember the specifics on whether or not they got to him quickly. 

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It was like 3-4 minutes after his stinger, and for some reason they went through with O'Haire eliminating him even though the match never finished and was ruled a no contest anyway.

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It happens starting at the 6:34 mark. I know there is very much a possibility of a language barrier, but how does the referee not notice something on the double clothesline? She cannot even put weight on her leg. Amateur hour.

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50 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Some of those names I'll give you but NXT did exactly zero for Drew McEntyre. 

I don't know about that. When McIntyre was rehired, his WWE main roster run had been basically boiled to a viewpoint "McIntyre's good as a midcarder, but his uppercard run in 2010 was a failed experiment". Even if his indy run changed minds, McIntyre was good...but never GREAT on the indies. 

At least NXT made it clear that "yeah, McIntyre could absolutely be an main event player on WWE television, and might be able to merit another chance as an uppercarder on the main roster." It's very little, but it's the difference between succeeding or ending up a Jinder Mahal as champion.

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8 minutes ago, Casey said:

I take solace that, in their final one-on-one match together, Nakano avenged that injury and defeated Hokuto.

Of course I can't find that match online, though.

Speaking of injuries... I finally saw the second rope tombstone piledriver that broke Akira's neck when she was still Hisako Uno the other day. Who in their right mind would agree to take that...IN 1987? I am not even going to discuss the absurdity of her continuing the match. 

 

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Based on their FB page, it looks like CMLL is going to have Sombra on a show discussing the Universal Championship. And they may also have Liger on (although it could just be discussing him with Okamura).

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16 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Speaking of injuries... I finally saw the second rope tombstone piledriver that broke Akira's neck when she was still Hisako Uno the other day. Who in their right mind would agree to take that...IN 1987? I am not even going to discuss the absurdity of her continuing the match. 

I watched that about a month ago and it was fucking GROSS. Holy shit. And then she's out there taking not just flat back bumps but took another piledriver and other neck bumps and doing offense of her own. 

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33 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I watched that about a month ago and it was fucking GROSS. Holy shit. And then she's out there taking not just flat back bumps but took another piledriver and other neck bumps and doing offense of her own. 

Can someone explain to me how a second rope tombstone isn't the finish in a match in 1987?

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2 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I watched that about a month ago and it was fucking GROSS. Holy shit. And then she's out there taking not just flat back bumps but took another piledriver and other neck bumps and doing offense of her own. 

Someone really needs to do a documentary on the craziness of Joshi puroresu and lack of oversight through the years that contributed to its downfall.

In Akira Hokuto's banner year of 93, she has a match in August with Harley Saito. She has that taped up knee partly for storyline purposes, and everything is going fine until she blows out her knee for real. Then, she just keeps going doing somersault planchas and shit. Keep in mind, poor Debbie Malenko got her career ended just six months earlier. I never saw that match, but it sounds they let that one continue as well.

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Just now, Infinit said:

Can someone explain to me how a second rope tombstone isn't the finish in a match in 1987?

It was 2 out of 3 falls, and it ended the first fall I believe.

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... I think.

Tombstones in Japan have notoriously pretty much always been set-up moves for whatever reason. Death in Mexico, set-up for a flying headbutt in Japan. It took me a long while to not hate Okada using it as a set-up for the Rainmaker. "You just dropped a dude on his head and you're picking him up immediately... That doesn't make sense," was my line of thinking. While true, the idea is that he's incapacitated them and they can't struggle against the Rainmaker. Which of course most do anyway. 

Okada is great though. No sarcasm. He's one of the best. Just a weird thing in Japan.

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In the legendary 8/22/85 match between Lioness Asuka and Jaguar Yokota, they traded devastating looking piledrivers. I think Jaguar hits her with a J Driller but she doesn't sit out with it. It was like the pedigree Hunter hit Marty Garner with. Then Lioness hits her with this:

7.gif

IIRC This finish is like a cradle, a double arm suplex, or some other innocuous shit by Jaguar. ?

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When I first started with puroresu, it was incredibly jarring to see how differently tombstones were treated in Japan. I was maybe 14, and had only ever watched WWF/WCW.

One of the first tapes I bought was an Ultimo Dragon compilation, featuring a match with (I think...) Otani. The one where they trade, and completely no-sell, several tombstones in succession. 

Dumbfounded teenager: "I...but...Undertaker... they're....huh?!"

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Speaking of injuries... I finally saw the second rope tombstone piledriver that broke Akira's neck when she was still Hisako Uno the other day. Who in their right mind would agree to take that...IN 1987? I am not even going to discuss the absurdity of her continuing the match. 

Hokuto while a wonderful wrestler was also kind of insane.

25 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Keep in mind, poor Debbie Malenko got her career ended just six months earlier.

Did Malenko's career end due to injury or did she just not decide to settle down and retire? I ask because she apparently worked one of Yoshida's retirement matches a few years back and I heard she looked good in it back then.

26 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Can someone explain to me how a second rope tombstone isn't the finish in a match in 1987?

Japan is weird. Honestly its probably more interesting to figure out how many times a Tombstone has actually ended a match there.

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30 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

... I think.

Tombstones in Japan have notoriously pretty much always been set-up moves for whatever reason. Death in Mexico, set-up for a flying headbutt in Japan. It took me a long while to not hate Okada using it as a set-up for the Rainmaker. "You just dropped a dude on his head and you're picking him up immediately... That doesn't make sense," was my line of thinking. While true, the idea is that he's incapacitated them and they can't struggle against the Rainmaker. Which of course most do anyway. 

Okada is great though. No sarcasm. He's one of the best. Just a weird thing in Japan.

Hey the piledriver in the late 80’s, and early 90’s was just a transition move in America at one point. For some reason I was in agreement with the way it was booked as a kid. I used to think the piledriver was a lame old fogey wrestling move compared to it’s brother in set-up the newer, and hipper powerbomb.

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On 5/21/2020 at 8:18 PM, BrianS81177 said:

Need some help getting my memory jogged. Seeing as I'm still not back to work yet I have been working on edits for Fire Pro Wrestling World. When I do this, I usually like to do a pack of 3-7 in a theme. Like the last batch I put out was 2nd/3rd generation guys not currently signed anywhere (Tim Zbyszko, Leland Race, etc). I like to do real specific categotries like that because it makes me really broaden my search instead of landing on the easy answer and releasing the 578th different Jon Moxley or Kurt Angle or whatever. What I'm currently doing is "obscure masked gimmicks of famous workers". So far I have done Who (Jim Neidhart), Super Invader (Hercules) and Black Blood (Billy Jack Haynes). Can anyone think of any others? They would have to be recent enough to be on Youtube, and I would prefer none that only lasted a match or two (like Al Snow as Shinobi for example). Also none where it was obvious who the guy under the mask was (like Hogan as Mr. America) and it was part of an angle. I'm talking about established workers who, for some reason were put under a mask and tried to be passed off as a new character instead of just using them under their already well known name. Anyone got any suggestions?

Have you done The Machines or is that too close to "Hogan as Captain America"? Also Lucha Underground had a ton of guys under gimmicks that where unique to the promotion such as Richocet as Prince Puma and El hijo De Fantasma as King Cuerno

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5 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Hey the piledriver in the late 80’s, and early 90’s was just a transition move in America at one point. For some reason I was in agreement with the way it was booked as a kid. I used to think the piledriver was a lame old fogey wrestling move compared to it’s brother in set-up the newer, and hipper powerbomb.

  That's true. But tombstones were an exception, as Teflon Turtle mentioned.

Another thing to keep in mind with joshi puroresu is that they were there for a good time not a long time with mandatory retirement at 26, so they probably were way more reckless with how they treated their bodies and their opponents than anybody else. I mean, they were still wildin' out like that afterwards but maybe the style had been established and nobody was like, "yo, let's work chinlocks and get those back over. I've got some Randy Orton footage we should peep."

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Speaking of injuries... I finally saw the second rope tombstone piledriver that broke Akira's neck when she was still Hisako Uno the other day. Who in their right mind would agree to take that...IN 1987? I am not even going to discuss the absurdity of her continuing the match. 

There's a top-rope piledriver in the Fire Pro games that looks insanely brutal.  Even in animated form, it makes me wince.  I think maybe it was added to the series for Pegasus Kid/Wild Pegasus/Benoit, but I really don''t remember.  You'd have be insane to agree to take it, so I'm assuming most of his opponents said "yep, no problem".

I think it's top-rope.  Might be from the second rope/turnbuckle.  Been a while since I played Fire Pro.

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