Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

MAY 2020 WRESTLING CHAT.


Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

That basketball game has a great finish. My life is better for having watched it. 

They should have retroactively deducted two points from the NWA team because, you know, that would have been a real Dusty finish and not Dusty scoring the game winning lay-up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Who is more popular with non-wrestling fans, John Cena or Batista? Cena is the household name, but I’m in the wrestling bubble that I could be way off. Batista has been in very successful movies. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Edwin said:

CMLL now visiting the board. Top 10 countdown of feline themed wrestlers.

That totally wasted Rippa and my mornings.  Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/18/2020 at 5:37 PM, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

WWE is certainly produced to more rigidly conform to a single person's vision, but you're really writing off a lot of high-quality work at the highest levels that stemmed from Jericho's personal input just because it happened in that company. I'm happy he feels more creatively fulfilled now, but I'm sure there are a lot of talents in WWE who wish they could be as "badly mishandled" as Chris Jericho was for 18 years. 

Good analysis.  It reminds one that wrestling is 'to each their own'.  My viewing was indeed limited passed 2003 or 4 for sure.  I checked in for a bout here and there seeing bad haircuts/gear and cliched WWE style promos in forgettable scenarios.  He's better than that, but I believe Jericho did the best with what he was given, and had good to great WWE style matches.  His position on the card wasn't the problem.  For a guy as talented as he is he should be more than an afterthought 'he'll have a good match' kinda guy.  More so even he needed freedom to be what he excels at (a chicken shit for example), and to run his mouth without WWE's overbearing touch.  My comment about being 'badly mishandled' is not unlike seeing an actor like Robert Deniro in a one for the money bad comedy as opposed to a 'King of Comedy'.  You said it,  a production rigidly conformed to a single person's vision.  I can't imagine I'd be as much of a modern movie fan if everything was directed by a Brett Ratner or a Tyler Perry, etc.  Yeah, I do think Jericho's talents were mishandled.  Your closing line however is very true.  Which rings true of the sad state of the WWE.     
 

On 5/18/2020 at 10:06 PM, SorceressKnight said:

There's a world of difference between a Jon Moxley or a Matt Hardy,  though, and a Shawn Spears or a Brodie Lee. Shawn Spears was a kind of comedic opening match guy and borderline jobber, and Brodie Lee was a lackey/tag team guy in a team that was nowhere near as legendary as the Hardyz. Spears was weighed, measured, and found wanting as a top star and fell down to his level of competence as "he's a perfectly acceptable lowercard hand", but Brodie Lee is exactly the type of thing everyone mocked TNA for. Even if Brodie Lee is very talented and a good performer, on a logical scale, his push is the first thing AEW has done that actively makes AEW look small-time:

I get this perception debate, but the logic seems based on a dead tradition.  With the curtain pulled back and guys like Moxley, the Revival and others giving greater exposure to the ridiculous inner workings of WWE it's challenging hearing ppl complain about a guy being pushed passed what WWE believed his/her level was.  How does that WWE perception of a talent stick outside of WWE to anybody but children that believe it's real?  Shawn Spears was brought in with a good backstory/history with Cody.  At the time they didn't have TV to build a feud, so a simple backstory of jealousy made complete sense, and ultimately worked very well.  Spears got a good opportunity following said feud to elevate his status futher and failed.  A good opportunity for a comsetically good looking compentent performer - no problem there.  Brodie Lee has come in and looked really good in the ring and shown a nice ability to talk.  He's taking good advantage of the opportunity.  Great!  

TNA was ridiculed for failing on every level.  The former WWE star crossover thing was probably a valid point, but only so far as the TNA booking or creative was complete dogshit.  Everything about that company, that I've seen (granted very limited), save for a bunch of good matches, was problamatic.  I mean, even the fucking name 'TNA' was a stupid mistake.  

The 'WWE cast off' argument feels really weak in 2020.  Tho I will admit for me it's partially because I never watch WWE.  And partially because there's few things I love more than seeing a misused/talented performer find redemption and success outside of McMahonland.  
 

On 5/19/2020 at 7:55 AM, ComingToAmerica said:

I think the logic with Luke Harper being pushed is that he's a guy who deserved a bigger break and AEW is 'the land of opportunity' as it were. You have to remenber that Luke Harper has gone over Marko Stunt and old man Christopher Daniels, will lose to Moxley and will then move back down the card.

That being said, the Dark Order has dragged AEW down and the misfits/diamonds in the rough grouping is very much the play of a superindy and not a legit alternative to WWE.

Why even question the Brodie Lee push when he's one of the best and most interesting elements of the show?  Yeah, he deserved more and is already proving why.  

The original Dark Order tag team is clearly an aquired taste. Some like me love them, some like you hate them.  They were debuted poorly and along the way have had some misguided or weak creative surrounding them.  I'm not so sure they should be blamed for this.  Uno's promos and their matches have been consistently very good and due as much if not more to their performances.  The Dark Order 2.0 minus Grayson/Uno are basically a way to have a bunch of cannon fodder for a cult leader charecter, and it's just fine.  Seems completely on par to Raven's flock which was a good upper to mid-card act of WWF's then legit alternative.     

Edited by HarryArchieGus
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

 Also Tiger is way too high.

For a second i thought there was a guy who's name was "Also Tiger". Like he was the third son of Original Tiger, and his older brothers already took Tiger Jr and El Hijo Del Tiger, and he utterly refused to be Tiger 4 or pick a colour or something.

  • Like 5
  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Cody/Kenny/The Bucks would start booking the promotion as if it was "New Japan USA" instead of doing their own version of "sports entertainment," like many people thought they were going to do when AEW was first announced, than a lot of these complaints about using former WWE jobbers would disappear.

 

As it is, I really wish they would have held off on putting Brodie Lee in the main event.  They should have spent at least six months having him squash guys and rebuilding him before trying to have him challenge for AEW's "world" title.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I get this perception debate, but the logic seems based on a dead tradition.  With the curtain pulled back and guys like Moxley, the Revival and others giving greater exposure to the ridiculous inner workings of WWE it's challenging hearing ppl complain about a guy being pushed passed what WWE believed his/her level was.  How does that WWE perception of a talent stick outside of WWE to anybody but children that believe it's real?  Shawn Spears was brought in with a good backstory/history with Cody.  At the time they didn't have TV to build a feud, so a simple backstory of jealousy made complete sense, and ultimately worked very well.  Spears got a good opportunity following said feud to elevate his status futher and failed.  A good opportunity for a comsetically good looking compentent performer - no problem there.  Brodie Lee has come in and looked really good in the ring and shown a nice ability to talk.  He's taking good advantage of the opportunity.  Great!  

TNA was ridiculed for failing on every level.  The former WWE star crossover thing was probably a valid point, but only so far as the TNA booking or creative was complete dogshit.  Everything about that company, that I've seen (granted very limited), save for a bunch of good matches, was problamatic.  I mean, even the fucking name 'TNA' was a stupid mistake.  

The 'WWE cast off' argument feels really weak in 2020.  Tho I will admit for me it's partially because I never watch WWE.  And partially because there's few things I love more than seeing a misused/talented performer find redemption and success outside of McMahonland.  

First off, the thing to remember is- the amount of smarks is very small. And the amount of smarks who heard Jericho's podcasts with Moxley/Revival/etc., smaller still. The silent majority is a thing- the amount of "children that believe it's real" is much higher than you think. There is something to be said with "if you're immediately throwing a Tye Dillinger or a Luke Harper from WWE into the AEW main event scene, you're not making Spears/Brodie look like a main eventer that WWE dropped the ball on immediately, you're just making AEW's own homegrowns look bad."  If you're one of those "children who believe it's real", then you aren't raising Shawn Spears or Brodie Lee up to the main event level immediately, you're just dropping the AEW roster down to the level Dillinger or Harper were perceived as. If AEW has a failing right now, the biggest failing they have would be a complete unwillingness to accept that and booking the show like "Well, yes, Kenny Omega was considered the best wrestler in the world by many fans for the last few years...but make no mistake, Sonny Kiss could be seen as being just as good as Omega or better if only a big mean promoter just BELIEVED IN HIM! Well, WE believe in him, and so we're going to give Sonny Kiss the chance to prove he's just as good as Omega!" On paper, it seems to have a case- but in practice: No, you're not rising Sonny Kiss up to Kenny Omega's level, you're dropping Omega down to Sonny Kiss's level. 

But let's argue for a second you're right. Literally every fan in the whole wide world is aware that Shawn Spears and Brodie Lee are so talented and they deserved to win the World Title at Wrestlemania by fiat, and it's all the fault of that big mean Vince McMahon being soooo mean to them and holding them back because he's mean. Maybe Brodie Lee was very talented before WWE, was more talented than his push showed in WWE, and when he left WWE was going to probably do very good things because he was talented.

EVEN THEN, it doesn't change that pro wrestling is a zero-sum game. One person wins, one person loses. For one person to succeed, another person must agree to fail. There is a vicious cycle in pushes like this. When a company like AEW takes a downtrodden former WWE lowcarder who could be bigger than Rock and Austin combined, they just needed a chance, honest- and they turn around and give that WWE guy a main event chance, then it sounds beautiful and noble and everything that AEW was built around...

...until you remember that the very act of giving that WWE lowcarder that chance in the AEW main event picture is not just GIVING a main event opportunity to the WWE lowcarder, it's also TAKING AN OPPORTUNITY AWAY from one of AEW's homegrown lowcarders/midcarders to potentially be tried in the main event. This was why TNA was so mocked and failed for their reliance on WWE castoffs: There's nothing wrong with signing a guy from the WWE, but TNA signed so many of them that eventually, all of the really good TNA homegrowns never got their chance at the limelight. The TNA roster became the underutilized midcard/lowercarders, and eventually, by TNA giving all the WWE castoffs the chance to make WWE live to regret the day they let them walk away, all of their good homegrowns left TNA and made TNA  live to regret it. 

Much like there must always be a lich king, there must always be an underutilized downtrodden lowcarder. By giving a lowcard WWE guy a chance to be an AEW main eventer, you're just making an AEW midcarder/lowcarder the downtrodden lowcarder who just needs a chance.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/19/2020 at 4:55 AM, ComingToAmerica said:

will lose to Moxley and will then move back down the card.

 

Justin Roberts: "...and NEW AEW World Heavyweight Champion, BRODIE LEE!!!!!"

Jim Ross: "It took Aubrey Edwards being knocked to the arena floor, and outside interference from the entire Dark Order, but Brodie Lee has won the AEW Championship!!!"

Tony Schiavone:  "You gotta give Moxley some credit, fighting off all of the Creepers before Evil Uno threw a fireball into his face, setting him up for the Boss Man clothesline...."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure which thread to throw this topic in so I'll just post it here. After watching the Owen episode and listening to a few interviews with Martha, do you AEW would be able to pull off an Owen Hart Memorial Cup or something of that ilk? 

I could see them having a ppv event in Calgary in the summer around the time of the Calgary Stampede (just like 1997). I could see Jericho behind the scenes breaking the ice between Martha and the Hart family, so that the Hart's could be there in attendance and not cause any commotion or be a distraction. Have a tournament dedicated to him and Martha and the kids present the winner a trophy. And the majority of the proceeds from the event going to the Owen Hart Foundation.

Since we're never going to get a WWE HOF induction (and rightfully so based on how they fucked up), maybe AEW (or NJPW to a lesser extent) could step in and give him the recognition he deserves as an in ring performer. That's just my two cents. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, olythegreat89 said:

Not sure which thread to throw this topic in so I'll just post it here. After watching the Owen episode and listening to a few interviews with Martha, do you AEW would be able to pull off an Owen Hart Memorial Cup or something of that ilk? 

I could see them having a ppv event in Calgary in the summer around the time of the Calgary Stampede (just like 1997). I could see Jericho behind the scenes breaking the ice between Martha and the Hart family, so that the Hart's could be there in attendance and not cause any commotion or be a distraction. Have a tournament dedicated to him and Martha and the kids present the winner a trophy. And the majority of the proceeds from the event going to the Owen Hart Foundation.

Since we're never going to get a WWE HOF induction (and rightfully so based on how they fucked up), maybe AEW (or NJPW to a lesser extent) could step in and give him the recognition he deserves as an in ring performer. That's just my two cents. 

I love this idea.  But that family seems intent on seprating themselves from pro wrestling completely, and fair enough!  It was really great to hear that they've found ways to move on and achieve so much.  Really impressed with Martha and Oje in particular.  That episode shook me up.  I was a huge Owen fan from his Stampede days forward.  
 

1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

First off, the thing to remember is- the amount of smarks is very small. And the amount of smarks who heard Jericho's podcasts with Moxley/Revival/etc., smaller still. The silent majority is a thing- the amount of "children that believe it's real" is much higher than you think.

Fair enough, but it's hard to ignore the fact that AEW's crowd at this point is pretty 'insider' or 'smarky' or whatever you wanna call it.  

Quote

There is something to be said with "if you're immediately throwing a Tye Dillinger or a Luke Harper from WWE into the AEW main event scene, you're not making Spears/Brodie look like a main eventer that WWE dropped the ball on immediately, you're just making AEW's own homegrowns look bad."  If you're one of those "children who believe it's real", then you aren't raising Shawn Spears or Brodie Lee up to the main event level immediately, you're just dropping the AEW roster down to the level Dillinger or Harper were perceived as.

 It's been discussed in a few forums, and I'm not really the one to say but from what I understand Lee/Harper wasn't exactly a buried nothing in the WWE.  Seems he just wasn't used.  

I didn't really see Cody-Spears as the Main Event of that card.  It was a meaningful upper mid card match.  And it was booked very nicely considering the limited time for TV or in that case online videos.  Dillinger wasn't made to look better than everybody on the AEW roster, so the point is kinda moot.  Has he after 10 months or so even now beaten anybody of value in AEW?  Brodie Lee has defeated some jobbers, Marko Stunt and Chris Daniels, again not exactly the cream of the crop.  His story for getting a title shot is completely believeable and at no expense to any top tier talent.  I'm not a huge fan of him working the champion this early, but more so because I see no intrigue in whether or not Mox will retain.  
 

Quote

If AEW has a failing right now, the biggest failing they have would be a complete unwillingness to accept that and booking the show like "Well, yes, Kenny Omega was considered the best wrestler in the world by many fans for the last few years...but make no mistake, Sonny Kiss could be seen as being just as good as Omega or better if only a big mean promoter just BELIEVED IN HIM! Well, WE believe in him, and so we're going to give Sonny Kiss the chance to prove he's just as good as Omega!" On paper, it seems to have a case- but in practice: No, you're not rising Sonny Kiss up to Kenny Omega's level, you're dropping Omega down to Sonny Kiss's level. 

 I'm not a fan of AEW's version of the squash when it comes to Dark or Omega matches.  I do like Kenny's attitude about his enhancement matches.  The Alan Eagles match even kinda worked for me, but I don't disagree with what you're saying here.  And yeah Sonny Kiss has no business exchanging blows with Omega.  Wait, just re-read that, maybe he does!
 

Quote

But let's argue for a second you're right. Literally every fan in the whole wide world is aware that Shawn Spears and Brodie Lee are so talented and they deserved to win the World Title at Wrestlemania by fiat, and it's all the fault of that big mean Vince McMahon being soooo mean to them and holding them back because he's mean. Maybe Brodie Lee was very talented before WWE, was more talented than his push showed in WWE, and when he left WWE was going to probably do very good things because he was talented.

Big mean Vince McMahon.  You mean the guy that sued the wife of an employee he allowed to die for no reason?  Or the guy who helped keep Jimmy Snuka out of jail after killing his wife?  The guy who asked Nancy Argentino to not press charges after being beaten?  Or do you mean the guy who refuses to push guys who get over on their own?  Ha, I wish the above was inaccurate or a joke, but it's not even the tip of the iceberg.  Go watch Vince on Donahue talking about the sex scandal or showing what a raving lunatic he is opposite Costas.  

All that said, no one here or anywhere is suggesting Spears or Lee for that matter deserved to be World Champion.  Just an opportunity to get over and not get your balls cut off because the guy in charge childishly wakes up and decides nah.
 

Quote

EVEN THEN, it doesn't change that pro wrestling is a zero-sum game. One person wins, one person loses. For one person to succeed, another person must agree to fail.

 But then, it isn't really about a win and a loss.  It's about opportunity or lack there of.  It's about guys having to reform to fit a horseshit model.  It's about seeing guys get buried for no reason other than they got over on their own, or don't make the boss laugh.  Seeing a Chad Gable become Shorty G or whatever.  Or how bout an excellent mid-card technician Terry Taylor becoming a Red Rooster.  Tho, I don't watch enough of the current product to comment too deeply.  That said, you can read what's going on and see highlights and know that it's the same political bullshit that's been going on for 15 plus years.  There's little to no positive progression going on under Mac Man's watch.  

Quote

When a company like AEW takes a downtrodden former WWE lowcarder who could be bigger than Rock and Austin combined, they just needed a chance, honest- and they turn around and give that WWE guy a main event chance, then it sounds beautiful and noble and everything that AEW was built around...

...until you remember that the very act of giving that WWE lowcarder that chance in the AEW main event picture is not just GIVING a main event opportunity to the WWE lowcarder, it's also TAKING AN OPPORTUNITY AWAY from one of AEW's homegrown lowcarders/midcarders to potentially be tried in the main event. This was why TNA was so mocked and failed for their reliance on WWE castoffs: There's nothing wrong with signing a guy from the WWE, but TNA signed so many of them that eventually, all of the really good TNA homegrowns never got their chance at the limelight. The TNA roster became the underutilized midcard/lowercarders, and eventually, by TNA giving all the WWE castoffs the chance to make WWE live to regret the day they let them walk away, all of their good homegrowns left TNA and made TNA  live to regret it. 

Much like there must always be a lich king, there must always be an underutilized downtrodden lowcarder. By giving a lowcard WWE guy a chance to be an AEW main eventer, you're just making an AEW midcarder/lowcarder the downtrodden lowcarder who just needs a chance.

  I don't really disagree, but it never seems its quite so simple as the TNA example.  As I already stated, TNA was a failure on nearly every level.  Their booking of former WWE talent was surely a problem.  Where's the problem with what AEW is doing right now?  Who do you see on their very shallow roster being misused or passed over for an opportunity?  If AEW brings in say Chris Hero or Zack Ryder or one of these guys, I would agree that shooting them to the top of the card would be a mistake, but I'm not so sure the creative team even needs to be told this.  They're handling former talent just fine.  I mean you could say well they shot Moxley to the top, but he's obviously a major draw for them.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Edwin
20 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Care to recommend anything?

Sure.

2020:
1. Imperium vs. Undisputed ERA from Worlds Collide -- Barthel and Aichner show how good they are and WALTER looks like an absolute monster. TUE are fantastic as heels bumping all over the place as usual.
2. Dakota Kai vs. Tegan Nox street fight from TakeOver Portland -- not an epic wild brawl or anything like you would expect from Kudo vs. Ozaki or anything, but given their limitations they are given and the lack of blood, this is as good a female garbage match you'll get in WWE.
3. Daniel Bryan vs. Drew Gulak from Elimination Chamber -- my current pick for MOTYC. I'm sure you are familiar with Bryan, so you know what to expect from him and this will give you an idea of what a beast Gulak is.
4. Daniel Bryan vs. Drew Gulak from SmackDown this past week -- not on the level of their EC match, but still very good and they showcase some new stuff they didn't in their previous match.
5. Matt Riddle vs. Timothy Thatcher from NXT this past week -- not on par with their previous matches from the indys, but a fantastic hard hitting gritty sub 10 minute TV main event.

2019:
1. Matt Riddle vs. Kassius Ohno from TakeOver Phoenix -- I believe this was Riddle's TakeOver debut and it's again Ohno who is fantastic. These folks have had matches before in the indys and have fantastic chemistry together.
2. Aleister Black, Velveteen Dream & Ricochet vs. Johnny Gargano, Tommaso Ciampa & Adam Cole from Halftime Heat -- not an epic multiman tag by any chance, but it's a wild PWG fast paced type match in a WWE ring.
3. Women's WarGames match from TakeOver WarGames III -- pretty fantastic storytelling with a ton of weird twists and turns no one expects and some wild bumps. Again, given the limitations of no blood being allowed and what not, this match is fantastic.
4. WALTER vs. Tyler Bate from TakeOver Cardiff -- my pick for WWE MOTY. WALTER is an absolute beast and Bate does an incredible job working as a much smaller underdog. They also keep control and don't go overboard with the false finishes that seem to be the norm now.
5. Matt Riddle vs. Roderick Strong from TakeOver XXV -- both had fantastic years and this is a snug battle between the two.

I personally don't watch much WWE TV myself aside from that Bryan & Gulak vs. Artist Collective feud and NXT, so my 2019 are solely NXT recommendations.

Edited by Edwin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...