Who is more important for pro wrestling history?

[francescofuoco1998]

Good morning.

This poll is about historical importance, obiouvsly not about who is a better worker.

The comparisons are:

1) Randy Savage vs The Undertaker 

2) Edge vs Randy Orton

3) Jeff Hardy vs Big Show

4) Chris Jericho vs Sting 

5) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Toshiaki Kawada 

6) Daniel Bryan vs AJ Styles

  

Thank you very much

[BloodyChamp]

Sting, but I can’t explain as trying to pick between Savage and UT already made my head explode. 

[SorceressKnight]

1) Randy Savage vs The Undertaker : Randy Savage. The number two guy during the '80s peak of WWE, and managed to cross over a little bit outside of wrestling. Undertaker was always the "if he's in your top three guys, you're in good shape, but if he's your best guy you have problems" for a top star, and he also had never really crossed over.

2) Edge vs Randy Orton: Orton. He had more longevity than Edge did, and he represents a new era where "being a good meme" can make a top star more than "being a top star in booking or in the ring." 

3) Jeff Hardy vs Big Show:  Big Show. Jeff Hardy had a short-term run as a top star, and Big Show's highs were higher than Jeff Hardy's (pun not intended.)

4) Chris Jericho vs Sting: Jericho. Sting was historically important by being the guy who Vince couldn't have. Jericho was historically important for being the guy who walked away from Vince. 

5) Shinsuke Nakamura vs Toshiaki Kawada: Kawada was great, but Nakamura becoming the first BIG-TICKET PURO STAR to choose WWE made him historically more important for both sides of the Pacific.

6) Daniel Bryan vs AJ Styles: Bryan. His highs were higher than Styles ever reached.

  

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I’m surprised Jeff Hardy, and it’s a draw are so close. The Hardy’s(especially Jeff) inspired a lot of today’s pro wrestling since their rise to prominence. I love The Big Show/Giant, but he’s just a continuation of the same Andre big man archetype. He’ll be remembered, but none of the match gimmicks, and spots will be influenced by him like they are still today by the Hardy Boyz. I would even dare say that as it stands, Jeff Hardy is more important to the way pro wrestling is structured today than everybody in this poll.

Edited March 9, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[SorceressKnight]

With the Hardy vs. Big Show question, it is weird for it:

Big Show was the same Andre big man archetype, but also had very high heights at his peak, in (the Mayweather match) and out (his movie roles) of the ring.

The biggest thing the Hardys really inspired was basically saying "it's possible to make it to the big time from backyard wrestling", but the rise of backyard wrestling seems to have fizzled out as independent wrestling has risen up to stardom. It's not like the early 2000s when backyard wrestling was a huge deal- now, it seems like kids probably still do backyard wrestling, but you don't see anyone credible make it even onto the credible independent promotions from the backyards without going into actual training. As backyard wrestling's crumbled, the Hardys' historical importance also falls a bit.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I’m talking about the way they use tables, ladders, and chairs nowadays. The ladder match is now a contrived set of spots with a “top that” mindset. Even regular no DQ matches aren’t just brawls anymore, most are pure stunt shows inspired by what Hardy, and his brother did. For better, or worse the Hardy’s left a bigger mark in the industry than a lot of other guys have had, including Big Show. You can argue Sabu was more responsible, but he wasn’t the mainstream star Jeff & Matt were. You can put up Kayfabe accomplishments, but I go with what has influenced the in ring, and production aspects of wrestling when I decide a single wrestlers importance.

Edited March 10, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[John E. Dynamite]

Daniel Bryan main-evented a Wrestlemania as the most over babyface of a decade. AJ didn't.

Kawada's influence on selling, moveset and post-ECW puroresu obsession (as expressed through those that confused Oudou with Strong Style and wore kickpads) puts him over Shinsuke's choice to jump, which didn't really change anything outside of where does Shinsuke Nakamura wrestle?.

Jericho beats out Sting because of AEW. Also, longevity, Bowie-level gimmick chameleoning, moderate rock star success, putting so many people over, etc.

Jeff Hardy convinced a TON of semi-rural American preteens that they could be famous for falling off of high places. Love it or hate it, it mattered. Dependable as he is, Big Show did not inspire anyone to be taller.

Edge, Randy Orton... company guys who could be counted on to carry storylines. Were better as heels. Easy to move around from the upper midcard to absolute main event. Edge matters more for tag wrestling and Randy matters for memes. It's a tie.

Randy Savage was the #2 guy behind peak Hogan and crossed over more than anyone on this list.

Can't believe I bet the chalk every time. I'm not remotely edgy these days.

Edited March 10, 2020 by John E. Dynamite

[Jiji]

Agree with everything you said except Sting was waaaay more ever than Jericho ever will be and brother didn't even need to wrestle during that time frame. I know he wasn't as big of a DRAW~ in WCW's formative years as I thought he was but he was the cornerstone of the alternative to WWF for years (well mostly shared duties with Ric). I am an eternal Sting mark and while I think Jericho's career wins out in terms of longevity and constant evolving, Sting was probably more important for that Crow run and keeping things together in WCW during some dark days. 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Who is more important for pro wrestling history? You guessed it...

 

[AxB]

Random room temperature take: In terms of what Pro Wrestling is in 2020, Ultimo Dragon is more relevant and influential than Hulk Hogan.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

5 hours ago, AxB said:

Random room temperature take: In terms of what Pro Wrestling is in 2020, Ultimo Dragon is more relevant and influential than Hulk Hogan.

Hmmmmmmmm... Thing is wrestling companies still look at him as the prototype star of a wrestling company, and that you build merch around. He wasn’t just  a wrestler, he was a tent pole franchise. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by LoneWolf&Subs

[AxB]

Hulk Hogan sold a lot of tickets, and a lot of merchandise (he also sold some of his opponent's moves, sometimes). But how many wrestlers can you name you got into the business because they wanted to be like Hulk Hogan? I can only think of Edge, and Drake Maverick. Neither of whom has really begat anyone. Whereas Ultimo Dragon was the mentor or inspiration for basically everyone who ever wrestled for Toryumon/ T2P or Michinoku Pro, which in turn was the inspiration for the early 2000s West Coast indie style... which is now the dominant style in American indie wrestling, and has deeply infected the major US promotions.

Erase Hulk Hogan from history, and we remember the 80s era for Randy Savage's neverending Piper fued. Erase Ultimo Dragon from history, no Michinoku Pro, not Toryumon, no PWG, ROH is less of a big deal than CZW, no AEW, NXT is all lumpy heavyweights who played football...

Actually, no. I'm minimising the influence of Rey Mysterio Jr. The Size barrier would still have been broken regardless. Forget I mentioned it.

[BloodyChamp]

It could be argued that Sting getting fucked altered wrestling history...twice. And not just this guy got the belt instead of him kind of altered. The entire sport blew to pieces twice because of 2 freak accidents he was in. By that merit Sting is the choice over Jericho. 
 

He’s also the pick over Jericho by the typical comparison but Jericho  is a hair away from beating Sting here, and a few hairs away from knocking many many more guys off the mountain.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

2 hours ago, AxB said:

Hulk Hogan sold a lot of tickets, and a lot of merchandise (he also sold some of his opponent's moves, sometimes). But how many wrestlers can you name you got into the business because they wanted to be like Hulk Hogan?

Bro, I mean come on it can’t just be Edge, and Drake. Like I’m not a fan of his, but he inspired a lot of guys growing up during that period. A lot of them won’t admit it, but it’s undeniable that they wouldn’t have.

[Jiji]

Yeah, I'm not buying that Ultimo > Hogan argument for a second. It's a nice thought exercise but Hogan is the most recognizable wrestling star outside of maybe The Rock.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

19 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Bro, I mean come on it can’t just be Edge, and Drake. Like I’m not a fan of his, but he inspired a lot of guys growing up during that period. A lot of them won’t admit it, but it’s undeniable that they wouldn’t have.

Judging by their tans, MJF and Alexander Hammerstone could have possibly been Hogan fans.

[MORELOCK]

If you're talking about in-ring work strictly, the argument can be made and not be that far-fetched.

But if you're making the argument outside of that, it's pretty clear you're doing it from a perspective that doesn't recognize, value, or respect Hogan's contribution to the business.

Honestly? @AxB's vision of an Ultimo Dragon free world sounds really refreshing right now. I'd watch the shit out of current NXT if it was a bunch of hosses. I don't even usually skim the current shows as they are anymore.

[AxB]

7 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Judging by their tans, MJF and Alexander Hammerstone could have possibly been Hogan fans.

MJF only tans for AEW. And the other week, he blatantly missed spots like his armpits and the backs of his legs which were pale like he was working MLW.

As far as workers (outside of Edge and Spud) not saying Hogan inspired them to wrestle, firstly bear in mins that the current set of wrestlers in their 20s grew up in the Cena era so Hogan is just a relic to them. You have to go to guys who are currently late 30s to mid 40s. And whilst a lot of them might have been Hogan fans as kids, it could easily be a 'Hogan made me a Wrestling fan, but it was Bret/Sting/Steamboat who made me want to be a wrestler' type situation.

In her autobio, Ronda Rousey talks about how she was a massive Hulkamaniac as a pre-schooler, and never mentions Piper once (not even in discussing how she was given his nickname, and really wanted to get his permission before using it). But watch her matches and tell me you see anything of Hogan in her style. Because I don't.

@MORELOCK Look to the indies for your Hoss needs. Specifically Matthew Justice, Chris Dickinson, Manders and Josh Briggs.

[BloodyChamp]

Also whether The Big Show deserved what I’m about to say or not is irrelevant to the OP’s question. Anyway he altered wrestling history minus some of the drama that usually comes with it similar to Sting. He was just playing basketball 1 day then he was in the Halloween Havoc main event. 
 

Then I would go as far as to say WCW might not have survived without him carrying the jobstrap for the next 3 years. Seriously did he not lose to Goldberg every week on Nitro for a year? Sure seems like it but it can’t be because I remember just as many throwaway matches against Sting and Luger. 
 

But shoot obviously 1 of those doesn’t happen without the other so if The Big Show never happens, does WCW even reach it’s peak? Hogan was already getting stale and The Giant saved all that for a while even if it did still take a shit. Had Hulkamania not survived until 1996 I don’t know that WCW would have ever been more than a rasslin show that the guy who owned the station owned.

[SorceressKnight]

11 hours ago, AxB said:

As far as workers (outside of Edge and Spud) not saying Hogan inspired them to wrestle, firstly bear in mins that the current set of wrestlers in their 20s grew up in the Cena era so Hogan is just a relic to them. You have to go to guys who are currently late 30s to mid 40s. And whilst a lot of them might have been Hogan fans as kids, it could easily be a 'Hogan made me a Wrestling fan, but it was Bret/Sting/Steamboat who made me want to be a wrestler' type situation.

But if you're going to claim "well, the current set of wrestlers in their 20s grew up in the Cena era" to claim Ultimo is more important than Hogan, then you have to use the same logic to dismiss Ultimo as being more important than Hogan as well because if those wrestlers grew up with Cena as their Hogan, it was the ROH/X-Division wrestlers who were their Bret/Sting/Steamboat. Ultimo, on the other hand, was eminently forgettable in his WWE run in 2003-04 (which, incidentally, was around the time when Hogan was having his fairly solid in-ring run in 2002-03.)