MAR 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Spontaneous]

Yeah, it wasn't funny but they can't all be zingers. 

Brock-Hogan worked just like it should have. Brock crushing Hogan to win versus hitting a F5? I'll take Brock squeezing Hogan.

[supremebve]

51 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

So he missed the joke because there wasn't a funny part.

"Hogan didn't get squashed by Brock quickly enough" is the kind of revisionism that you could definitely expect from some in the IWC - if they ever talked about this match. But of course, the reason no one talks about this match is because Hogan did the right thing and it made Brock look like a million dollars. Can't be giving Hogan any credit for literally anything without Natural coming and spamming threads. IIRC, people thought it was a great way to get Brock over, but even then no one was willing to praise Hogan too loudly.

This is right up there with the, "Michael Jackson was vastly underrated as a vocalist," twitter thread I saw earlier.  Who is underrating Michael Jackson as a vocalist?  Name all zero of them.

Hulk Hogan is fucking Hulk Hogan.  Sure there is plenty of completely and totally valid criticism of Hulk Hogan, but at the end of the day no one is minimizing his importance as a wrestler.  Whent @The Natural says, "I have strong opinions about former WWF/WCW/WWE Champion Terry Bollea which you should PM me about. But I wanted to express them here too because I can't help myself" it's because he's proved to be an irredeemable asshole over and over again.  He's probably the most important wrestler in American history, almost anything you say about him as a wrestler comes second to that fact.  Everything that is said about him as a man is pretty much 100% valid.  Claiming that Hulk Hogan of all people doesn't get enough credit, is absurd.  There is pretty much no one in history who has gotten more real, tangible, over the top credit.

[MORELOCK]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

Hulk Hogan is fucking Hulk Hogan.  Sure there is plenty of completely and totally valid criticism of Hulk Hogan, but at the end of the day no one is minimizing his importance as a wrestler.

If you truly believe this, you haven't talked about wrestling on the internet for the last 25 years and you certainly don't read this particular board.
 

3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

he's proved to be an irredeemable asshole over and over again.  He's probably the most important wrestler in American history, almost anything you say about him as a wrestler comes second to that fact.  Everything that is said about him as a man is pretty much 100% valid.  Claiming that Hulk Hogan of all people doesn't get enough credit, is absurd.  There is pretty much no one in history who has gotten more real, tangible, over the top credit.

Saying Hulk Hogan gets credit from the mainstream, or casual fans? That's fair. But hardcore wrestling fans go out of their way to shit on Hogan for everything, and that was the case long before he used racist language. Meltzer has shit on Hogan consistently for 30+ years.

The attacks on his personal character, outside of the racist stuff? You aren't really in a position to say they're valid. He's a shrewd businessman that took care of his friends and himself. All these things that are said about him - do you think they're coming from people who have sat down with Hulk and had a frank conversation about their feelings? Or are they coming almost entirely from people who have an axe to grind for one reason or another? Stooging out Ventura for trying to unionize is the only real dick move I can recall, and we again have one side of that story. The way he acted about Nick's DUI killing was pretty bad, but I'm not really inclined to harshly judge a father for making mistakes in an attempt to take care of his child in crisis. Most of the other stuff just boils down to "because of him ______ didn't get the World title" or whatever.

How often do you recall people putting that Hogan-Brock match over, or putting Hogan over for doing the honors? Can you think of a single instance?

[Elsalvajeloco]

Shit, I give Hulk Hogan credit even when he is clearly being political which was the main focal point of his online criticism.

Go back and watch his promo just before the Bret-Yoko match at WM IX. He is going on this barely coherent tirade and then out of nowhere he starts talking about how Bret Hart (the incumbent WWF champion, mind you) is a Hulkamaniac himself. This man pulled a John Wall "Bradley Beal is my sidekick" twenty three years before Wall even did it, and undercut one of the guys WWF was going with for the future on his way out. On top of that, Hogan was going to be champ about 30 minutes later after said guy jobbed to someone who was about to lose in 30 seconds to Hogan.

Terry Bollea, you sly motherfucker.

With that said, on that, I at least have to give Hogan credit that he was self aware to know what wrestling was becoming at that point: a game of survival of the fittest and in what would be easily one of the darkest periods of pro wrestling. People got on him for protecting his fading star power, but he outlasted a bunch of people from a bygone era and somehow found a way to become more important over time.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

The attacks on his personal character, outside of the racist stuff? 

Not that I'm saying you're trying to separate him from that or diminish that aspect, but that's always going to be tied in with him. It's probably a little bit less with guys like Flair, Dusty, and others where you don't have a giant smoking gun that came with a Hogan, Cornette, or Watts. However, given the stories surrounding some of these guys past and current, doing something outright despicable is only going to serve to amplify what people already feel they did wrong prior to that. Vindicating strong opinions is not something just with Hogan. JBL is a great example of this. I remember months back there was a few people here doing the "Well if you don't like him now based on him doing X, Y, and Z, then you're stupid and just plain don't like him". Shit, imo, that's a battle you're never going to win. I mean I don't like the guy at all, but I am not going on a crusade to stop people from liking JBL. It's subjective. If people want to shit on Hulk Hogan for whatever reason, it's going to happen regardless. I think we all get the context of why someone might do that. The guy was a critical part of pro wrestling for all the right and wrong reasons. Nothing is going to change that. 

 

[supremebve]

6 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

If you truly believe this, you haven't talked about wrestling on the internet for the last 25 years and you certainly don't read this particular board.
 

Saying Hulk Hogan gets credit from the mainstream, or casual fans? That's fair. But hardcore wrestling fans go out of their way to shit on Hogan for everything, and that was the case long before he used racist language. Meltzer has shit on Hogan consistently for 30+ years.

The attacks on his personal character, outside of the racist stuff? You aren't really in a position to say they're valid. He's a shrewd businessman that took care of his friends and himself. All these things that are said about him - do you think they're coming from people who have sat down with Hulk and had a frank conversation about their feelings? Or are they coming almost entirely from people who have an axe to grind for one reason or another? Stooging out Ventura for trying to unionize is the only real dick move I can recall, and we again have one side of that story. The way he acted about Nick's DUI killing was pretty bad, but I'm not really inclined to harshly judge a father for making mistakes in an attempt to take care of his child in crisis. Most of the other stuff just boils down to "because of him ______ didn't get the World title" or whatever.

How often do you recall people putting that Hogan-Brock match over, or putting Hogan over for doing the honors? Can you think of a single instance?

You're missing my point.  Michael Jackson isn't an underrated vocalist, because he sold so many damn records it's safe to assume that people like to hear him sing.  There are about 55191956156189265051956106516561165489 more interesting things to talk about.  Seriously, if we just sat around saying stuff like, "you know who had a good run, Hulk Hogan," or "You know what move finished a murderer's row of contenders?  Hulk Hogan's legdrop," this board wouldn't have any members.  Those aren't interesting conversations.  Hulk Hogan's place in history is understood, and doesn't need to be stated in every conversation about him.  

Does anyone talk about both The Rock and Steve Austin both putting over Chris Jericho on the same night?  Can you think of a single instance?  It happened around the same time, and was pretty significant at the time.  No one talks about that either.  Doing the right thing rarely makes the news, because that's what you are supposed to do.  You're basically a dad asking, "why don't I get credit for providing for my family?"  It's because that's what you signed up for when you started a family.  Putting your opponent over is the job of a wrestler.  It isn't notable when it happens, it's only notable when it doesn't happen.

[sabremike]

3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

You're missing my point.  Michael Jackson isn't an underrated vocalist, because he sold so many damn records it's safe to assume that people like to hear him sing.  There are about 55191956156189265051956106516561165489 more interesting things to talk about.  Seriously, if we just sat around saying stuff like, "you know who had a good run, Hulk Hogan," or "You know what move finished a murderer's row of contenders?  Hulk Hogan's legdrop," this board wouldn't have any members.  Those aren't interesting conversations.  Hulk Hogan's place in history is understood, and doesn't need to be stated in every conversation about him.  

Does anyone talk about both The Rock and Steve Austin both putting over Chris Jericho on the same night?  Can you think of a single instance?  It happened around the same time, and was pretty significant at the time.  No one talks about that either.  Doing the right thing rarely makes the news, because that's what you are supposed to do.  You're basically a dad asking, "why don't I get credit for providing for my family?"  It's because that's what you signed up for when you started a family.  Putting your opponent over is the job of a wrestler.  It isn't notable when it happens, it's only notable when it doesn't happen.

First thing that popped into my mind after reading that last paragraph:

 

[(BP)]

I mean, Hogan’s still going to die super rich because of Peter Thiel’s grudge against Gawker, he’s back on television, going into the HoF again, etc. He’s largely been forgiven because of a unified coalition of people who always look the other way on racism and those who are clinging to every piece of nostalgia that helps them not think about the world becoming an increasingly dreary place. He’s going to die one day in a giant house deeply tanned, wearing expensive hair extensions, next to a woman half his age. 

I guess what I’m saying is people writing mean things about him or his work online hasn’t affected him at all and he doesn’t give a shit, and if you’re sore about it, then it’s hitting some nerve ending that you need to deal with, because Hogan also doesn’t give a shit about you. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

This is right up there with the, "Michael Jackson was vastly underrated as a vocalist," twitter thread I saw earlier.  Who is underrating Michael Jackson as a vocalist?  Name all zero of them.

Hulk Hogan is fucking Hulk Hogan.  Sure there is plenty of completely and totally valid criticism of Hulk Hogan, but at the end of the day no one is minimizing his importance as a wrestler.  Whent @The Natural says, "I have strong opinions about former WWF/WCW/WWE Champion Terry Bollea which you should PM me about. But I wanted to express them here too because I can't help myself" it's because he's proved to be an irredeemable asshole over and over again.  He's probably the most important wrestler in American history, almost anything you say about him as a wrestler comes second to that fact.  Everything that is said about him as a man is pretty much 100% valid.  Claiming that Hulk Hogan of all people doesn't get enough credit, is absurd.  There is pretty much no one in history who has gotten more real, tangible, over the top credit.

Funny.  I wasn't expecting it to be you who triggered the word filter.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, sabremike said:

First thing that popped into my mind after reading that last paragraph:

 

Based on what has happened with Chris since then (he was hilarious though when stories about his then infidelity and later impending divorce began to surface years back fwiw), I think the whole bit about that's what you're suppose to do is one he would like to have back. That and the "N*****s vs. Black people" bit. Those particularly didn't age very well.

[Dolfan in NYC]

Per Meltzer, Dana Brooke and Rey Mysterio are "sick" and "self-isolating".  

[supremebve]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That and the "N*****s vs. Black people" bit. Those particularly didn't age very well.

I swear this went from something I found funny as a teenager to fucking horrific as an adult worse than post cube N.W.A. records.  At least N.W.A. still had Dr. Dre beats.

[MORELOCK]

 

13 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not that I'm saying you're trying to separate him from that or diminish that aspect, but that's always going to be tied in with him. It's probably a little bit less with guys like Flair, Dusty, and others where you don't have a giant smoking gun that came with a Hogan, Cornette, or Watts. However, given the stories surrounding some of these guys past and current, doing something outright despicable is only going to serve to amplify what people already feel they did wrong prior to that. Vindicating strong opinions is not something just with Hogan. JBL is a great example of this. I remember months back there was a few people here doing the "Well if you don't like him now based on him doing X, Y, and Z, then you're stupid and just plain don't like him". Shit, imo, that's a battle you're never going to win. I mean I don't like the guy at all, but I am not going on a crusade to stop people from liking JBL. It's subjective. If people want to shit on Hulk Hogan for whatever reason, it's going to happen regardless. I think we all get the context of why someone might do that. The guy was a critical part of pro wrestling for all the right and wrong reasons. Nothing is going to change that. 

I don't think the JBL stuff is fair, either - I touched on that in the HoF thread. I think my main issue is that in the cases of Flair and Dusty, I don't think it would matter if there was a smoking gun (and there arguably is, unless you want to come right out and call Teddy Long a liar). There are LOTS of instances of wrestlers doing racist things or being racist, and very few of them seem to be held accountable for it in the way that Hogan is. I think it's ridiculous that what all that seems to be based on is people's wrestling opinions. If you hate racism and want to rail against it, that's wonderful - but why single out Hogan and be oddly forgiving towards other people because we liked their matches better? I know better than to think I can stop people from shitting on Hogan, I just don't see why people can't acknowledge the bias. People shit on Hogan because they hate Hogan, not because they hate racism.

 

5 minutes ago, supremebve said:

You're missing my point.  Michael Jackson isn't an underrated vocalist, because he sold so many damn records it's safe to assume that people like to hear him sing.  There are about 55191956156189265051956106516561165489 more interesting things to talk about.  Seriously, if we just sat around saying stuff like, "you know who had a good run, Hulk Hogan," or "You know what move finished a murderer's row of contenders?  Hulk Hogan's legdrop," this board wouldn't have any members.  Those aren't interesting conversations.  Hulk Hogan's place in history is understood, and doesn't need to be stated in every conversation about him.  

I don't disagree - I just think that viewpoint can easily be extended to bringing up racism every time his name comes up. I don't reply to every Benoit mention with "but murderer," and that seems like it is probably a much more egregious offense.

[supremebve]

5 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

People shit on Hogan because they hate Hogan, not because they hate racism.

 

As a black person in America, I couldn't agree more with almost every time we persecute someone as a racist.  Donald Sterling spent decades as an actively racist slumlord who treated his players like chattel slaves, but until someone heard him being racist on tape nobody gave a fuck.  

[AxB]

23 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

People shit on Hogan because they hate Hogan

And this is a bad thing because...?

[Lawful Metal]

So who has Rey and Dana wrestled in the last two weeks? Shouldn’t they be in the quarantine too? Anyone who shared a locker room with them?

[Elsalvajeloco]

28 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

I don't think the JBL stuff is fair, either - I touched on that in the HoF thread. 

My point isn't whether the criticism is fair as much people are so staunch on one side or the other that's it is virtually pointless to convince people to join your side. You will be arguing it to the end of time.

28 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

There are LOTS of instances of wrestlers doing racist things or being racist, and very few of them seem to be held accountable for it in the way that Hogan is. I think it's ridiculous that what all that seems to be based on is people's wrestling opinions. If you hate racism and want to rail against it, that's wonderful - but why single out Hogan and be oddly forgiving towards other people because we liked their matches better? I know better than to think I can stop people from shitting on Hogan, I just don't see why people can't acknowledge the bias. 

I don't think there is bias as much as pro wrestling itself is a broken system and imperfect carny ass profession. I touched on this a bit when the ACH t-shirt thing first happened. It's basically check your sources vs. who do I find credible. It's always been my opinion that everytime something happens (and we will go with in regards to black people for this purpose), it's let me go grab my black wrestler friend whether it's D Lo or Mark Henry or somebody else to say I'm not a racist or whatever. And it's not because I'm militant or in general believe what a New Jack says, but wrestling in North America for the longest has been a white fraternity (and sorority) that as a black person viewing from the outside (i.e. me), who do you believe? If a wrestler has been up and down the road traveling with someone, you kinda have to believe them but then you have people slowly reveal themselves (although a Cornette has always been on shaky ground for me). So for me, I don't particularly give a damn about who white people hold accountable unless it's for the good of the system. So whether or not people take Hogan to task more than others doesn't really sway me to me to have sympathy for him. It's his bed.

19 minutes ago, supremebve said:

As a black person in America, I couldn't agree more with almost every time we persecute someone as a racist.

And as a black man, this is where I have to disagree. With this and the Hogan thing you just quoted. No one thing is the same. Hulk Hogan isn't on trial to get into heaven. All this is part of his legacy he left. This is like someone saying "you hate me because I'm beautiful". This is all based on opinion.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[ChesterCopperpot]

3 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

So who has Rey and Dana wrestled in the last two weeks? Shouldn’t they be in the quarantine too? Anyone who shared a locker room with them?

Rey - Andrade, Garza in singles matches and a tag with Humberto vs Andrade/Garza - all this month at Raw TV

Dana - tag match with Carmella vs Mandy/Sonya - March 6th

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Andrade also wrestles Charlotte.

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

And as a black man, this is where I have to disagree. With this and the Hogan thing you just quoted. No one thing is the same. Hulk Hogan isn't on trial to get into heaven. All this is part of his legacy he left. This is like someone saying "you hate me because I'm beautiful". This is all based on opinion.

I'm not saying that he isn't racist or shouldn't be persecuted as a racist based on his actions.  I'm saying that we always seem to focus on the Hulk Hogans who get caught saying something racist on tape, but never actually get around to stopping the kind of racism that is harmful to people.  Hulk Hogan is an asshole, and probably racist as hell, but he ain't redlining, he's not in a position where he doesn't hire someone with a black sounding name, or racially profiling and killing innocent people in the streets.  All of those things matter more than saying something racist on a sex tape, but we only seem to punish the people who are doing the latter, and never actually get around to fixing the former.  So yes, that is part of his legacy, and racism is way more complex of a subject that needs to be discussed here.  My point is that sure all racism is bad, but focusing the fight against racism against the Hulk Hogan's of the world isn't actually going to fix the harm that is being done by racism.  

Do you remember when the concussion stuff started coming out about football?  That report came out about CTE and how harmful repeated hits to the head are, and how football players, especially offensive and defensive lineman have the brains of old ass men.  So the NFL starting doing stuff like fining safeties and line backers for big hits, and implementing the concussion protocol.  Here's the issue with that, that report specifically says that the small repeated brain traumas are more debilitating than the occasional big brain traumas.  Except, they've done nothing to actually address the small repeated brain traumas.  I'm not saying to stop fining people for helmet to helmet hits or to stop the concussion protocol, I'm saying that is not the part we should be focused on.  We fight racism like we fight concussions.  The racism that is harder to see, but is actually proven to be harmful is never addressed, while we persecute the people who are racist on camera/audio.  It makes us feel better, but ultimately doesn't fix the problem.  So when he said that people bringing up Hogan's racism is more about hating Hogan than it is about hating racism, I think of all the people who are happy talking about Hulk Hogan's racism but are quiet about all the other racism going on in the world.

[Elsalvajeloco]

43 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I'm not saying that he isn't racist or shouldn't be persecuted as a racist based on his actions.  I'm saying that we always seem to focus on the Hulk Hogans who get caught saying something racist on tape, but never actually get around to stopping the kind of racism that is harmful to people.  Hulk Hogan is an asshole, and probably racist as hell, but he ain't redlining, he's not in a position where he doesn't hire someone with a black sounding name, or racially profiling and killing innocent people in the streets.  All of those things matter more than saying something racist on a sex tape, but we only seem to punish the people who are doing the latter, and never actually get around to fixing the former.  So yes, that is part of his legacy, and racism is way more complex of a subject that needs to be discussed here.  My point is that sure all racism is bad, but focusing the fight against racism against the Hulk Hogan's of the world isn't actually going to fix the harm that is being done by racism.  

You can deal with both and I argue that there are degrees to dealing with that and systematic racism that establish them as both being egregious.

However, here is the thing about the Hogan and Sterling thing. Once you get out of the wrestling and basketball bubbles respectively, you have no control about how one perceives those particular deals. Once a story reaches everyone and is hot off the presses, all bets are off. With Sterling, you had people who follow basketball who look at in context of his past history. With others, you had people looking at it from a more skeptical side of how does this thinking permeate into NBA ownership as a whole. Then you have the Lipstick Alley/Bossip/Shade Room crowd who only looks at it from the salacious part with V. Stiviano and Sterling's wife and who gets what and who is repossessing shit from the mistress. There was no one through line or connective tissue on how to fight racism.

How Hogan is viewed by someone who hasn't watched wrestling since the Hebner twin angle due to his racism...I cannot really read into it. How Hogan's racism could be damaging in pro wrestling knowing how much racism in pro wrestling is kinda looked over? I think I could grasp that.

43 minutes ago, supremebve said:

We fight racism like we fight concussions.  The racism that is harder to see, but is actually proven to be harmful is never addressed, while we persecute the people who are racist on camera/audio.  It makes us feel better, but ultimately doesn't fix the problem.  So when he said that people bringing up Hogan's racism is more about hating Hogan than it is about hating racism, I think of all the people who are happy talking about Hulk Hogan's racism but are quiet about all the other racism going on in the world.

I don't see that at all cause I don't look toward wrestling fans to do social activism. Hogan is either 1a or 1b in terms of superstardom in pro wrestling in modern times. If he fucks up, everything else he does wrong is compounded. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Technico Support]

20 hours ago, Zimbra said:

LMAO, I just googled it and the odds that cage started its life as a dog run have to be near 100%

Holy shit the top of the cage is literally a foot above the top turnbuckle.

1 hour ago, Lawful Metal said:

So who has Rey and Dana wrestled in the last two weeks? Shouldn’t they be in the quarantine too? Anyone who shared a locker room with them?

You'd think that, but their boss is pals with a large orange man who spent weeks telling us the virus is a hoax, then dialed it back a little to claim it's not so bad and that we can all go back to work in a week or two.

[ChesterCopperpot]

That's a former UK health minister asking if it was staged. 

Edited March 24, 2020 by ChesterCopperpot

[Pete]

20 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I love how many stipulations that match has and then they have it and it's just 90% punches. 

But the thing is that the stips all made sense within the context of their feud.

• No DQ - there must be a winner to settle the feud.
• Loser Leaves Town - the promotion wasn't big enough for the two of them.
• Steel Cage - to keep Ted's crew out of the ring. 
• Coal Miner's Glove on a Pole - to counter-act Ted's loaded glove.
• Tuxedos - because part of the feud was them fighting over the "Mid South's Best Dressed" title or somesuch.

[Spontaneous]

So I watched Starrcade 1995 for the first time. The World Cup was mostly bad but I have to ask, where did the trophy go after the show? Please tell me someone has it sitting proudly on a shelf. 

Also mvp goes to Johnny B Badd for getting tossed over the top rope for 1 point for WCW. Would of been brilliant if a heel did that and tried to claim all the glory for the winning team.