Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board

2019-20 NBA: 2nd Half


Dolfan in NYC

Recommended Posts

25 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

That's my exact point though. MJ claims he had to be that way to win, but most of the other all-time great winners weren't like that with their teammates.

This wasn't at all me saying those others were all great guys who were never overly competitive assholes, I'm saying none of them had to break their teammates in order to win.

Jordan might be the greatest basketball player that ever lived, but he also is a sociopathic asshole, and I just do not believe he had to be that way to win.

He could've easily messed up the chemistry of the team. You noticed he didn't pull that shit on Oakley when he was on the team several years earlier. You create a conundrum because one day you might run into a motherfucker who you don't think is tough and he might fire on you. Then what? Cause I don't buy all the bullshit Mike was talking about in regards to getting on his level. If someone hits him with a swift one-two in practice and sleeps him, I don't see Jordan as the guy who would suck it up and embrace you for standing up to him. This is the same dude is creating fictional beefs in his mind. That person is off the team almost immediately. 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

He could've easily messed up the chemistry of the team. You noticed he didn't pull that shit on Oakley when he was on the team several years earlier. You create a conundrum because one day you might run into a motherfucker who you don't think is tough and he might fire on you. Then what? Cause I don't buy all the bullshit Mike was talking about in regards to getting on his level. If someone hits him with a swift one-two in practice and sleeps him, I don't see Jordan as the guy who would suck it up and embrace you for standing up to him. This is the same dude is creating fictional beefs in his mind. That person is off the team almost immediately. 

The story goes he went after Bill Cartwright like that when they first traded Oak for Bill. Cartwright told him "you ever do that to me again, and you'll never play basketball again" and MJ never tested it.

Edited by Brian Fowler
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, RolandTHTG said:

No Gary Payton fans want to object to last ep's total bullshit?

GP sliding over to Jordan was huge in that series. If I'm not mistaken, MJ had his wrist FG%, 3P%, 2P%, TS%, eFG% and PPG of any of his six finals appearances that year. Although the "Jordan killed them the first three games" thing is also a bit of a myth. He only really had one great game in the entire series. There's a really good argument for Rodman deserving that finals MVP, and I don't think you can make nearly as strong a case in any of the other five for anyone but Mike. He tied the finals record for offensive rebounds twice in the series, got guys into foul trouble repeatedly, most notably getting Kemp to eventually foul out in game 6. Hilariously, Jack Haley reportedly had to literally talk Dennis into coming to the game, he was ready to just go home after the two loses.
 

That said, I do at least somewhat buy that MJ was distracted thinking about his dad. I don't think it's fair to Payton to just dismiss it, but it's not a totally implausible argument. Those Sonics players are always going to wonder "what if" about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

GP sliding over to Jordan was huge in that series. If I'm not mistaken, MJ had his wrist FG%, 3P%, 2P%, TS%, eFG% and PPG of any of his six finals appearances that year. Although the "Jordan killed them the first three games" thing is also a bit of a myth. He only really had one great game in the entire series. There's a really good argument for Rodman deserving that finals MVP, and I don't think you can make nearly as strong a case in any of the other five for anyone but Mike. He tied the finals record for offensive rebounds twice in the series, got guys into foul trouble repeatedly, most notably getting Kemp to eventually foul out in game 6. Hilariously, Jack Haley reportedly had to literally talk Dennis into coming to the game, he was ready to just go home after the two loses.
 

That said, I do at least somewhat buy that MJ was distracted thinking about his dad. I don't think it's fair to Payton to just dismiss it, but it's not a totally implausible argument. Those Sonics players are always going to wonder "what if" about it.

Do you want to know how good of a defender Gary Payton was?  The NBA has been around for 74 years, one point guard has won defensive player of the year.  It's almost impossible for any guard to win defensive player of the year, but he's the only point guard to do it.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, supremebve said:

Do you want to know how good of a defender Gary Payton was?  The NBA has been around for 74 years, one point guard has won defensive player of the year.  It's almost impossible for any guard to win defensive player of the year, but he's the only point guard to do it.  

He was amazing.

(Though, I must admit, my lasting memory of him will always be Billups just utterly wrecking him in '04. Getting old is a bitch.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Player's Association has started polling the players as to whether they want to return to play this season.

It appears to be a straight yes/no question which, in my opinion is worthless, since you figure in a vacuum most players want to return to play and without providing and sort of Third "Yes... But" choice it is meaningless

Also - on Adam Silver's call to the players this past Friday he said the most likely scenario if they return is that it will be all in one (max two) locations

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've read they want to get every team up to at least 70 games played if they do come back, before any type of playoffs, due to most of not all local TV contracts having 70 games played language for full payment of the season fees.

Right now, the games played sits between 63 and 67 per team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To me, terms like sociopath seem too strong. I'm not a Jordan fan. I thought his HOF speech was petty, and I feel bad for guys like Rodney McCray, whose career Jordan destroyed. But I do like digging beneath the surface. I think the Jordan/Cartwright issue is interesting, for example. I found this article about it from 1991 -- https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1991-11-18-9104140692-story.html The documentary touched on Jordan having to learn to trust his teammates, and that it took time for him to buy into the triangle offense, but I liked the extra layer of detail that this article adds. You can't tell me that this time of issue hasn't happened on countless NBA teams over the years. I'm not denying that Jordan wasn't petulant or immature when it came to Cartwright, and Cartwright definitely comes across as being wiser and more mature, but is this really an unprecedented case? Here is an article about how some of the Lakers players reacted when Norm Nixon was traded for Byron Scott -- https://lakeshowlife.com/2015/03/12/rebuilding-the-lakers-byron-scott-was-the-teammate-no-one-wanted/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, RIPPA said:

The Player's Association has started polling the players as to whether they want to return to play this season.

It appears to be a straight yes/no question which, in my opinion is worthless, since you figure in a vacuum most players want to return to play and without providing and sort of Third "Yes... But" choice it is meaningless

Also - on Adam Silver's call to the players this past Friday he said the most likely scenario if they return is that it will be all in one (max two) locations

And to throw some water on this, Mark Cuban says in a Washington Post article, "When we can test like they do in the White House, then I'll bring the Mavericks back".  

So...  that's going to be an issue. 

  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

And to throw some water on this, Mark Cuban says in a Washington Post article, "When we can test like they do in the White House, then I'll bring the Mavericks back".  

So...  that's going to be an issue. 

Some days I love Mark Cuban more than others, and a quote like that makes him my ideal sports team owner. ? Which means I can count on seeing the Mavs play again sometime in 2021. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/7/2020 at 9:50 PM, cubbymark said:

 I rewatched Reggie score 8 points in under 15 seconds vs the Knicks on a whim the other day. That's as good a reason as any to hate him.

The antidote to that is re-watching Larry Johnson's four-point play. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Absolutely random thing I've been thinking about;

In their two trips to the finals, the Drexler Blazers won game 2 on the road both times, went back to Portland with the theoretical chance to win the series without ever having to go back to the Midwest.

They went 1-5 in their five home games. Detroit ended the series by taking all three, Chicago buried them taking a two and went back East with two chances to close it out 

That's some terrible home court advantage for what seemed like a real contender.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That '90 Finals was pretty close, though. They only got blown out in Game 3, which was the game where Dumars waited until after the game to hear if his father had died. In Game 4, they had the tying three pointer waved off, and in Game 5, the Microwave heated up. In '92, the Bulls dominated them in two out of their three home games. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, ohtani's jacket said:

That '90 Finals was pretty close, though. They only got blown out in Game 3, which was the game where Dumars waited until after the game to hear if his father had died. In Game 4, they had the tying three pointer waved off, and in Game 5, the Microwave heated up. In '92, the Bulls dominated them in two out of their three home games. 

What Jordan and Pippen did to them in game five was damn near criminal. 70 points, 16 boards, 13 assists combined. Pip had two steals, MJ had a block, they were a combined 22/38 from the floor. And they spent large chunks of the game picking up Portland full court and just dismantling their offense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/11/2020 at 8:13 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

He could've easily messed up the chemistry of the team. You noticed he didn't pull that shit on Oakley when he was on the team several years earlier. You create a conundrum because one day you might run into a motherfucker who you don't think is tough and he might fire on you. Then what? Cause I don't buy all the bullshit Mike was talking about in regards to getting on his level. If someone hits him with a swift one-two in practice and sleeps him, I don't see Jordan as the guy who would suck it up and embrace you for standing up to him. This is the same dude is creating fictional beefs in his mind. That person is off the team almost immediately. 

That would make sense in theory, but you also have to understand it in context to understand why Jordan could get away with it even then.

In context, during the 70s and 80s in basketball, there was a mentality like in hockey to the NBA that's vanished in the current era of the game as it's become more athletic and less violent- where much like in hockey, teams with a superstar felt the need to keep an enforcer on the roster. Much like with the hockey role, the same rule was there: You go after our star, he's going after you.

Jordan wasn't bullying Oakley because he couldn't get away with it, Jordan didn't bully Oakley because Oakley's whole job with the Bulls was being Jordan's enforcer, and Oakley was very, very good in the role (indeed, all signs say that Oakley was so good as the enforcer he still stays as Jordan's enforcer in real life to this day.)  That likely also played a role in why Cartwright got tested and Jordan didn't do anything afterwards- in all likeliness, it was also making it clear "You're aware of your job here- someone touches me, you're going after them, right?"

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

That would make sense in theory, but you also have to understand it in context to understand why Jordan could get away with it even then.

In context, during the 70s and 80s in basketball, there was a mentality like in hockey to the NBA that's vanished in the current era of the game as it's become more athletic and less violent- where much like in hockey, teams with a superstar felt the need to keep an enforcer on the roster. Much like with the hockey role, the same rule was there: You go after our star, he's going after you.

Jordan wasn't bullying Oakley because he couldn't get away with it, Jordan didn't bully Oakley because Oakley's whole job with the Bulls was being Jordan's enforcer, and Oakley was very, very good in the role (indeed, all signs say that Oakley was so good as the enforcer he still stays as Jordan's enforcer in real life to this day.)  That likely also played a role in why Cartwright got tested and Jordan didn't do anything afterwards- in all likeliness, it was also making it clear "You're aware of your job here- someone touches me, you're going after them, right?"

You do understand that two things can be true? Yes, Oakley was the enforcer. Also, he could have whooped Mike's ass. Hence, why he has that job. Plus, for all that having enforcers on the team, that still didn't stop Jordan from getting picked on for his early playoffs runs. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You do understand that two things can be true? Yes, Oakley was the enforcer. Also, he could have whooped Mike's ass. Hence, why he has that job. Plus, for all that having enforcers on the team, that still didn't stop Jordan from getting picked on for his early playoffs runs. 

Well, to be fair, Rick Mahorn damn sure wasn't afraid of Oak (or anyone else on a basketball court ever)

And Laimbeer wasn't afraid of anyone as long as Mahorn was there.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Well, to be fair, Rick Mahorn damn sure wasn't afraid of Oak (or anyone else on a basketball court ever)

And Laimbeer wasn't afraid of anyone as long as Mahorn was there.

Exactly my point. What good is an enforcer if he can't do his job the one time you definitely need him?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...