FEB 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[LoneWolf&Subs]

The only way I can see Joe continuing at this point would be for him to radically loose all the weight. 

[AxB]

That Samoa Joe dropkick was a good spot though. Consider AJ Styles, who has done thousands of dropkicks in his career. Can you remember any one specific dropkick he did? Probably not. You just remember he has a good one.

Whereas, if you say Samoa Joe Dropkick, everyone knows exactly which one you mean. Because whilst he only did single figures of dropkicks in his life, one of them was the craziest thing ever.

Just imagine if the Hell in a Cell matches after 1998 never did the 'exit the cage and climb the walls' spot. The Foley bumps off the top would be so much more special if nobody else had done them afterwards.

[supremebve]

28 minutes ago, AxB said:

That Samoa Joe dropkick was a good spot though. Consider AJ Styles, who has done thousands of dropkicks in his career. Can you remember any one specific dropkick he did? Probably not. You just remember he has a good one.

Whereas, if you say Samoa Joe Dropkick, everyone knows exactly which one you mean. Because whilst he only did single figures of dropkicks in his life, one of them was the craziest thing ever.

Just imagine if the Hell in a Cell matches after 1998 never did the 'exit the cage and climb the walls' spot. The Foley bumps off the top would be so much more special if nobody else had done them afterwards.

I remember Mick Foley saying something like this in his first book...which is ironic, because like we discussed earlier Foley is kind of the tipping point for a lot of this stuff.  There is a argument to be made that the reason there hasn't been a wrestling boom in so long is that there is just too much wrestling on television.  It's hard to create electric, must see television when the WWE is broadcasting 7+ hours of television every single week.  Nothing is memorable, because there is too much to process.

[Curt McGirt]

Thanks for bringing that dropkick up because I'd never seen it until now. That's wild.

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, D.Z said:

Jerry Lawler says WWE may be moving away from heavily scripted promos. They're letting some wrestlers be themselves again on the mic. And bringing back bullets points instead of line by lines thanks to Heyman.

Mostly just for top acts for Raw right now.

I'll believe that when the competitors stop asking for championship opportunities and going to the local medical facility when they get a contusion after getting decimated by other Superstars.

[A Guy Named Tracy]

On 2/13/2020 at 1:03 PM, Dewar said:

Yes. I remember Tyson taking all of the blame for the injury, saying he tried to take the bump in a different way to make the move look more devastating. 

Going back to the Tyson Kidd injury, has this statement ever been verified? This board is the only place I’ve ever heard it, and it’s been reported as truth ever since.  It’s kinda like the Jimmy Valiant glass table story, but I’m not going there. 

[ChesterCopperpot]

6 minutes ago, A Guy Named Tracy said:

Going back to the Tyson Kidd injury, has this statement ever been verified? This board is the only place I’ve ever heard it, and it’s been reported as truth ever since.  It’s kinda like the Jimmy Valiant glass table story, but I’m not going there. 

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2018/11/tyson-kidd-on-not-blaming-samoa-joe-for-injury-648301/

Quote

WWE producer Tyson Kidd recently spoke with SLAM! Wrestling for a lengthy interview and discussed the June 1, 2015 dark match with Samoa Joe that ended his in-ring career.

Kidd was injured while taking the Muscle Buster from Joe. Kidd talked about how he wasn't supposed to wrestle Joe that night but last minute changes were made. This would be the first match between the wrestling veterans.

"The night of injury, it was just one of those days where the show was being changed -- up to the last minute -- but the show was being changed and the next thing I know it's me against Joe in a dark match," Kidd said. "I'd never worked Joe before. I'd of course seen him. I'm a student of the game, I've seen everybody. But I'd never physically worked him. When we landed on the Muscle Buster, I saw the whitest light I've ever seen. I thought it was a concussion for a second. I remember thinking, 'Man, I did this whole match, completely on the fly, I pulled it off and then I get rocked at the end.'"

Kidd said he believes he had his hands in the wrong position for the finish, which is what caused the injury.

"I have a picture and I think my hands are in the wrong position compared to other ones I've seen. I wasn't able to run through it with him (before the match)," Kidd explained. "I drop, bang, and at first I saw this light and I was like, 'Ah, man.' And then my whole body went limp. It felt like it weighed a million pounds. I was completely paralyzed. I was paralyzed from the neck down."

 

[A Guy Named Tracy]

9 minutes ago, ChesterCopperpot said:

https://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2018/11/tyson-kidd-on-not-blaming-samoa-joe-for-injury-648301/

 

He may blame himself for being out of position, however that’s completely different than “Hey Joe, I want you to make the muscle buster look extra devastating on me.” 

[DreamBroken]

20 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Whoever goes to WrestleCon this year needs to ask Sid about this and tape it.

 

[odessasteps]

Sid is on the Super Studacat next week to discuss being Humongous, so maybe it comes up since the angle involved Robert. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Colonel Robert Parker was his idea!? ...And you guys say this man isn’t a genius.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Colonel Robert Parker was his idea!? ...And you guys say this man isn’t a genius.

Yeah, he wouldn't come into WCW in 93 without him. According to Schiavone during the Slamboree 93 WHW episode, it was also because Sid kinda had a "roid rage" issue. So I guess Parker was his handler.

From that though, Parker kept drawing a check from being on the booking committee long after he wasn't on the booking committee. That's so WCW.

3 hours ago, DreamBroken said:

 

So weird hearing Sid talk about "the man" and it not being about his own wrestling persona.

I want a TED talk with Sid on institutional racism and how the prison system in the 21st century is symbolic of that.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[odessasteps]

Sid was part of the Studd Stable in Memphis in 88, so I guess his relationship with Fuller did go back a while. 

[ReiseReise]

6 hours ago, supremebve said:

There is nothing more unrealistic in wrestling than someone being in a sleeper for more than about 10 seconds.  If you cut the blood off to the brain for more than about 10 seconds that person is going to pass out...100% of the time.  I watched the Kushida/Adam Cole match from NXT last week and Kushida locks in his kimura and steps over Cole's head, which is the exact right technique.  Here's the problem, from that position he has all the leverage in the world, and Cole has none.  Kushida could have ripped his shoulder out of it's socket and taken it home as a trophy, and Cole couldn't really do anything to stop him.  Of course, Cole drags Kushida's entire body weight to the ropes despite the fact that Kushida could have used a fraction of his strength to destroy his shoulder in a way that could end his career.  If Cole can drag a fully grown man who clearly knows how to apply a kimura to the ropes, why can't someone suplex a man with his penis?  It's just as realistic.

This is probably how our opinions differ, but my argument is not directly contrarary to yours. Both are unrealistic, but never in the same vein. 

One is a move with instantly hurts, knocks out, makes one tap in a fight, milked & drawn out for dramatic purposes. The other is a move that would never work in real life. 

If the overworked Kimura is more unrealistic to you than the Penis Suplex, that's definetly your cup of tea, but you yourself laid out perfectly while it is still perfectly reasonable to differentiate the two. My point is that I don't agree with the sentiment of "Wrestling always had unrealistic stuff in it, there is no difference between invisible handgrenades and an Irish Whip or a Sleeper hold!"

What breaks ones immersion is subjective. But if the Taken movie all of the sudden has a scene with a dude grabbing Liam Neesons crotch, then sommersaulting it would be a different way of portraying unrealism than Liam Neeson fighting out of a choke in 20 instead of 10 seconds. 

[Brian Fowler]

Did Chucky T ever even do a second invisible hand grenade? Because to the best of my recollection, it was a spot he tried once on a PWG show, it didn't get over, and was almost completely forgotten for like 4 years before it suddenly started flying around Twitter and people started tagging Cornette.

[Raziel]

12 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Did Chucky T ever even do a second invisible hand grenade? Because to the best of my recollection, it was a spot he tried once on a PWG show, it didn't get over, and was almost completely forgotten for like 4 years before it suddenly started flying around Twitter and people started tagging Cornette.

I know of 2, one in CHIKARA vs. The Colony, and one on Ciampa during that BOLA.  

Edited February 20, 2020 by Raziel

[Peck]

Wrestling fans are the worst.

 

[odessasteps]

44 minutes ago, Raziel said:

I know of 2, one in CHIKARA vs. The Colony, and one on Ciampa during that BOLA.  

I thought he did it multiple times in chikara,  but that was 10 years ago and my memory is poor. 

[Raziel]

He probably did, just the only one that came up when I did a Google search was the Colony one.

[odessasteps]

6 minutes ago, Raziel said:

He probably did, just the only one that came up when I did a Google search was the Colony one.

Is that when Soldier Ant fell on the grenade to sacrifice himself? 

[Casey]

It always blows my mind when I discover who all of these Ant workers were in Chikara.

[Raziel]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Is that when Soldier Ant fell on the grenade to sacrifice himself? 

Yes,

 

Then he kicked out at 2...

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 hours ago, Peck said:

Wrestling fans are the worst.

 

I bet the fan didn't even realize how wrong he is to be doing this.

For whatever reason a lot of wrestling fans are so awkward yet also entitled. 

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, ReiseReise said:

This is probably how our opinions differ, but my argument is not directly contrarary to yours. Both are unrealistic, but never in the same vein. 

One is a move with instantly hurts, knocks out, makes one tap in a fight, milked & drawn out for dramatic purposes. The other is a move that would never work in real life. 

If the overworked Kimura is more unrealistic to you than the Penis Suplex, that's definetly your cup of tea, but you yourself laid out perfectly while it is still perfectly reasonable to differentiate the two. My point is that I don't agree with the sentiment of "Wrestling always had unrealistic stuff in it, there is no difference between invisible handgrenades and an Irish Whip or a Sleeper hold!"

What breaks ones immersion is subjective. But if the Taken movie all of the sudden has a scene with a dude grabbing Liam Neesons crotch, then sommersaulting it would be a different way of portraying unrealism than Liam Neeson fighting out of a choke in 20 instead of 10 seconds. 

For me the thing that breaks my immersion is when you throw something too realistic into the farcical world of pro wrestling.  The Kushida spot sucks because it shits on its own credibility.  There are plenty of pro wrestling submissions he could use where struggling for minutes on end make more sense.  His finisher is pretty much the last step of a picture perfect, isn't really practical against an opponent who knows what they're doing kimura.  If you are in a grappling match, and you are able to step over your opponent's head and fully posture up in a kimura, the match is over unless you drop dead from an aneurysm or something.  It's a position where you have your entire body weight controlling your opponent, and have the leverage you use all of your strength to really crank the arm...there is nothing the person on the bottom would be able to do to stop you.  I remember I was in a jiu-jitsu class and someone asked after the demonstration, how do you counter that from there?  The black belt who was running the class looked at him and said, "you don't."  There is a lot you can do to stop someone from getting to that point, but once they're there, all there is to do is tap or get your shoulder ripped apart.  If someone is able to drag you to the ropes, it means you don't know what you're doing...which would be weird to just stumble that far into a kimura...or you're just too big of a bitch to do what needs to be done to win the match.  

So, is a penis suplex stupid?  Yes, but you know what else is pretty stupid?  A vertical suplex.  Picking a dude up with your junk and doing a shoot vertical suplex are both pretty much impossible.  Here's the thing, most of what we're watching borders on impossible, so I can buy into the absurdity.  If you're going to be absurd, the amount of absurdity doesn't bother me.  I've already agreed to accept the absurd.  One you start doing shoot stuff in a context that doesn't make sense is when  you lose me.  The worst part about it is that it's pretty easy to work a kimura in a way that doesn't kill the move.  It's pretty much the double wristlock that has been used for decades, Kushida making it too realistic makes it feel much more fake.

[AxB]

There's guys who do strongman feats who pull cars with their cocks. Not to mention the bodypiercing weightlifting thing like in the Jim Rose Circus.