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Super ShowDown III - 2/27/2020


Dolfan in NYC

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My whole point is that in ring work just doesnt fucking matter. There’s 75 guys on their roster right now who can turn in good to great matches on the reg and no one gives a flying fuck. Ratings are shit. Performers want to leave. Their cultural footprint is negligible at best. Every boon period in the last forty years has been brought about by compelling, larger than life characters cutting strong promos. Hogan. Savage. Austin. Rock. Foley. Undertaker. Not an ace worker in the bunch. Only guys who were allowed to connect with their audience. But please, tell me more about Brays ring work.

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So Roman is far more capable in executing the archetypal Goldberg match......how exactly? Yeah he can do Superman punch counters to the spear, but he can't make them look good because that's actually on Goldberg and it's not happening.

He might try the deadlift powerbomb spot, but I doubt it because why bother risking it?

 

Edited by ComingToAmerica
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It's so weird to see people say Bray sucks and he can't work and whatever. You do realize that it's Vince and Bruce directing Bray to no sell everything or pull out a giant mallet or no sell even more and so on, right? Bray is perfectly adequate as a worker. It's not his fault he has a red faced piece of shit and an out of touch billionaire saying Bray should work matches like it's a horror movie.

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6 minutes ago, just drew said:

My whole point is that in ring work just doesnt fucking matter. There’s 75 guys on their roster right now who can turn in good to great matches on the reg and no one gives a flying fuck. Ratings are shit. Performers want to leave. Their cultural footprint is negligible at best. Every boon period in the last forty years has been brought about by compelling, larger than life characters cutting strong promos. Hogan. Savage. Austin. Rock. Foley. Undertaker. Not an ace worker in the bunch. Only guys who were allowed to connect with their audience. But please, tell me more about Brays ring work.

I don't completely disagree with you, but... Austin, Savage, and Taker weren't Ace workers?!?! Fuck, Rock was really good and Foley was an absolute genius at ring psychology. Hogan was more than capable of having really good matches when he needed to.

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1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said:

I don't completely disagree with you, but... Austin, Savage, and Taker weren't Ace workers?!?! Fuck, Rock was really good and Foley was an absolute genius at ring psychology. Hogan was more than capable of having really good matches when he needed to.

Point conceded. Would it be fair to suggest that the work wasn’t what got them over?

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Goldberg's entrance gave me a migraine. Incredible. It's hours later and I actually had to take migraine medicine. Jesus.

Goldberg not even being able to do a jackhammer is fucking sad. I totally glossed over that. 

Also, again, it's been long overdo for Roman to be champion again, but beating Goldberg for it just turns this shit into yet ANOTHER coronation for the guy and that story is fucking lame and overdone. I'd rather see him as the one superhero who could knock Bray's mask off, take away his power, and defeat him to become champion. They already were booking these Fiend matches to be like movie stunt show bullshit so you may as well go all the way to an actual conclusion at WrestleMania.

EDIT: Roman beating old ass wrestlers who are 10+ years past their prime isn't interesting. At all. People can bitch a ton about how it's unrealistic to have Punk or Bryan vs Brock, but Roman beating a shrunken Goldberg who can't even do a Jackhammer is passable? Fucking what?

Edited by Craig H
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I'm legit curious what people here would have done because I don't think there was a great choice either way. Goldberg/Roman is w/o question the bigger and more interesting match if they go that route, but it also only makes sense with a title on the line. Fiend/Cena (also a much bigger match) doesn't need the title at all, and the Fiend character isn't evolved enough to translate to what people really want out of a title match yet anyways. The mistake of course was Bray winning the belt in the first place, but we were well past that point. There basically was no a good choice for anyone actually beating Bray. His character while interesting isn't one where beating him would give a legit rub with how current audience views such characters. Anyone who actually beat him was likely going to just get booed and not in a good way. At least with Goldberg, Bray is losing to a major star and someone who isn't a full time investment that can be actively hurt by the win. You could keep going with Bray as champ, but that will just keep anyone else under him from really doing much since they either can't aim for the biggest prize or likely look like chumps losing to him. As far as merch sales goes, those will likely continue to sell as long as Bray isn't made to look like shit.

2 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It's so weird to see people say Bray sucks and he can't work and whatever. You do realize that it's Vince and Bruce directing Bray to no sell everything or pull out a giant mallet or no sell even more and so on, right? Bray is perfectly adequate as a worker. It's not his fault he has a red faced piece of shit and an out of touch billionaire saying Bray should work matches like it's a horror movie.

Bray was widely disliked as worker by many even before the Fiend stuff. Many of his matches from before, bs or otherwise, were just not that standout, especially in terms of Bray's performances in them. Honestly what they are doing with the Fiend is pretty basic movie monster stuff they had Taker and Kane do early into their gimmicks. Its overdone to a degree, but they are trying to sell the Fiend's matches more as spectacles. if Bray just wrestled like he did before the gimmick would have died already.

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1 minute ago, ComingToAmerica said:

I agree about the Ace worker thing, but the basic point that people can see good to great matches on the reg is pertinent. It's a different era and The Fiend is a spectacle.

That is definitely true. Fuck, we probably legitimately get 3 matches a week that people would've lost their minds over in 1995.

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2 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Also, again, it's been long overdo for Roman to be champion again, but beating Goldberg for it just turns this shit into yet ANOTHER coronation for the guy and that story is fucking lame and overdone. I'd rather see him as the one superhero who could knock Bray's mask off, take away his power, and defeat him to become champion. They already were booking these Fiend matches to be like movie stunt show bullshit so you may as well go all the way to an actual conclusion at WrestleMania.

Except we already have seen Bray wrestled w/o the match and he is still a weird crazy with a bit of monster in him. Honestly, they have yet to give him an actual weakness.

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1 minute ago, Eivion said:

but it also only makes sense with a title on the line. Fiend/Cena (also a much bigger match) doesn't need the title at all, and the Fiend character isn't evolved enough to translate to what people really want out of a title match yet anyways.

I honestly don't see why Reigns/Goldberg only makes sense if it's for the title, and how Fiend doesn't translate to title matches but Goldberg does. I'm honestly not seeing it.

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9 minutes ago, just drew said:

Point conceded. Would it be fair to suggest that the work wasn’t what got them over?

It was a combination of everything really. Now if you wanna say Ultimate Warrior from 1988 to 1992 and his very brief run in 1996, that's a different thing.

 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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6 minutes ago, ComingToAmerica said:

I honestly don't see why Reigns/Goldberg only makes sense if it's for the title, and how Fiend doesn't translate to title matches but Goldberg does. I'm honestly not seeing it.

Its a case of different type of spectacles. People have certain expectations from each one. Neither translate to great matches per say, but Godlberg's style works just a little better towards title matches, especially with his history. As to why Goldberg/Reigns only makes sense for the title. The two have absolutely no beef with each other of whatsoever. You basically have make one look like an asshole to be going out of the way to start shit with other at this point. If they were willing to play a legit heel/face dynamic it would be fine, but with them likely  wanting both guys to stay face a title on the line makes things easier.

Edited by Eivion
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Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

It was a combination of everything really. Now if you wanna say Ultimate Warrior from 1988 to 1992 and his very brief run in 1996, that's a different thing.

 

I don’t remember anyone ever saying “holy shit, that Hogan leg drop was awesome! I don’t care about his character, but the way he drops that leg...textbook!” The matches didn’t make anyone care, outside of maybe steamboat/savage. Warrior’s a good shout, though...

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3 minutes ago, Eivion said:

 

Bray was widely disliked as worker by many even before the Fiend stuff. Many of his matches from before, bs or otherwise, were just not that standout, especially in terms of Bray's performances in them. Honestly what they are doing with the Fiend is pretty basic movie monster stuff they had Taker and Kane do early into their gimmicks. Its overdone to a degree, but they are trying to sell the Fiend's matches more as spectacles. if Bray just wrestled like he did before the gimmick would have died already.

I can't stand this shit. This "such and such was liked or disliked by many" shit. THAT'S ON HERE. As much as I like DVDVR, we don't fucking matter. Bray is pretty much universally praised for his work and creativity by many in wrestling, regardless of the promotion. If he was so disliked by many, why were people going nuts to see him turn face and take on HHH during the authority angle, why were people invested in his tag run with Matt Hardy, why was he one of the top heels with the Wyatt Family, and so on? 

We've over analyzed what made Bray work a million times, but it all came down to when he has the Family with him, everything clicked, when he didn't have the Family, then he's just a cult leader without a cult. To say he was widely disliked as a worker by many is ridiculous.

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I admire the stamina of the people who can still get even a little worked up about old part-timers hogging belts or Roman being position to win a big match. This is what this company is now and will be for the foreseeable future.

Re: Bray's ring work, I generally like it. But I tend to be biased in favour of bigger guys anyway. I doubt naming random half-remembered matches from years ago will win many hearts and minds. C'est la vie. 

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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50 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

No he won't. The match is going to blow chunks. 

 

Bray/Reigns would blow chunks too. At least this way we’re likely to get a fun powerhouse sprint out of it.

30 minutes ago, just drew said:

No, because this shit is subjective. You’re over here wanting to grade a match move by move. Gtfo with that GLF neckbeard bullshit. I’d rather watch Bray be in character and do shit that makes sense than Ciampa and Gargano do every movez in the book for an hour and have it mean absolutely nothing. Say “Bray is t my cup of tea, not “Bray Wyatt sux.” Id at least respect that.

Except that Bray Wyatt objectively sux.

14 minutes ago, Craig H said:

It's so weird to see people say Bray sucks and he can't work and whatever. You do realize that it's Vince and Bruce directing Bray to no sell everything or pull out a giant mallet or no sell even more and so on, right? Bray is perfectly adequate as a worker. It's not his fault he has a red faced piece of shit and an out of touch billionaire saying Bray should work matches like it's a horror movie.

I generally agree that anyone is capable of putting on a good match, playing to their strengths, etc... I’ve been a big proponent of Jinder’s title reign after all. Windham Rotunda may be perfectly adequate worker, but the Fiend total package, however you want to describe it or assign blame (and I feel like there have been ample reports of Bray having an active role in developing the character) is not clicking in the ring, so this feels like a necessary course correction. If he beats Cena at Mania, if that’s where he’s going, he’ll be perfectly fine. If it were up to me, they’d also lean more into the “Firefly Fun House” Bray, which seems much more over. 

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1 minute ago, Overly Critical Man said:

When the thread has to use a weird talking point like "Randy Savage was not an ace worker" in order to defend shittiness of The Fiend, we have strayed way too far from god's light.

Yeah, I misspoke. I know the point I was trying to make, but I didn’t say it right. Savage was incredible. I’m just not sure that’s why people cared so much...

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15 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

That is definitely true. Fuck, we probably legitimately get 3 matches a week that people would've lost their minds over in 1995.

And indeed there's quite a lot of stuff that the DVDVR originals were into back in the day that few of us would care to sit through. I sincerely doubt even Christopher Daniels would want to.

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