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1 hour ago, L_W_P said:

Zack Ryder gets the "outta nowhere" IC title win at Mania what was the point other than a "WrestleMania Moment" which ultimately looks stupid in hindsight..

We're not a wrestling company pal. We're putting smiles on people's faces. 

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I think one of the biggest mistakes was not going with Roman winning at Wrestlemania 31. The one long term plan they had they abandon at the last second.

Relying on older stars to promote shows in lieu of younger guys. No one is special. 

Hell, not numbering Wrestlemania reportedly because Vince feels it makes it sound old. Meanwhile other sports stake their prestige on the history behind everything. 

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20 minutes ago, Six String Orchestra said:

I think one of the biggest mistakes was not going with Roman winning at Wrestlemania 31. The one long term plan they had they abandon at the last second.

Relying on older stars to promote shows in lieu of younger guys. No one is special. 

Hell, not numbering Wrestlemania reportedly because Vince feels it makes it sound old. Meanwhile other sports stake their prestige on the history behind everything. 

100 times this. This is why I stopped watching the WWE cuz it seems you have to be retired for at least 5 years or the WWE does t push you past a certain point. 

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You'd think, if the idea was for Seth and Roman to be the biggest stars and carrying the company, they would both have Mania wins over at least two of Cena, Orton, Batista, Taker, Triple H or Lesnar. But where is Cena anyway? He did the Rock feud with the whole "I'm not going anywhere" promo, and he's been disappeared for ages. He was attempting to give the rub to younger talent towards the end there, but the two guys he really put over were Punk and Bryan, which didn't do much for the company long term.

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39 minutes ago, Six String Orchestra said:

I think one of the biggest mistakes was not going with Roman winning at Wrestlemania 31. The one long term plan they had they abandon at the last second.

 

That goes back to a point someone made about Zack Ryder winning a title for the sake of making a WrestleMania moment. Watching it as it happened was cool seeing Seth Rollins cash in but Roman was hurt by not beat Brock one on one in one of the best matches ever imo.

Speaking of Roman, he was on Fox earlier giving his SuperBowl predictions and he showed so much personality and natural  charisma that he barely he wasn't allowed to show when he was first being pushed. He gets to show it more now it's just that he gets saddled with stupid angles like the deal with Bryan and Rowan or the Dog food stuff with Corbin that is embarrassing if you did want more of the foxsports audience to crossover.

I think Reigns is the Perfect representative for the company especially when intermingling with the Sports world. It's too bad he's booked like '95 Bret Hart when he was feuding with Yankeem and the Pirate. He was having great matches but he was stuck in silly programs that's hard to take seriously 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Six String Orchestra said:

I think one of the biggest mistakes was not going with Roman winning at Wrestlemania 31. The one long term plan they had they abandon at the last second.

Relying on older stars to promote shows in lieu of younger guys. No one is special. 

Hell, not numbering Wrestlemania reportedly because Vince feels it makes it sound old. Meanwhile other sports stake their prestige on the history behind everything. 

They at least brought it back for 30 because...

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XXX

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2 hours ago, AxB said:

You'd think, if the idea was for Seth and Roman to be the biggest stars and carrying the company, they would both have Mania wins over at least two of Cena, Orton, Batista, Taker, Triple H or Lesnar. But where is Cena anyway? He did the Rock feud with the whole "I'm not going anywhere" promo, and he's been disappeared for ages. He was attempting to give the rub to younger talent towards the end there, but the two guys he really put over were Punk and Bryan, which didn't do much for the company long term.

Honestly, that ties to the problem with making new stars right now: It's hard to make new stars for the company when kayfabe no longer matters. To make a new star, it's not just about main eventers giving you the rub, but also by making the fanbase feel like the wrestler GAINED SOMETHING from this. Whether it's as big as "you won the World Title and solidified yourself as one of the all-time greats", or as simple as "hey, Roman Reigns just hung out with Heavy Machinery- they made a cool new friend!", there has to be SOMETHING that the wrestler gained that makes them seem more important than they were before this happened.

Cena's an example- he's always been willing to give the rub to younger talent and make new stars well- both by letting them rub shoulders with greatness and putting them over as having Cena's seal of approval like Hogan did in the '80s, and outright losing to them.

Unfortunately, if kayfabe doesn't matter, then Cena's attempts to put people over and make them new stars can't work. When kayfabe matters, the prospect of putting over a wrestler by coming so close to beating Cena, or even beating Cena clean makes that wrestler seem more important. If it doesn't? Cena can't put someone over in the US Open Challenge because it becomes "who cares how good this guy looked against Cena, Cena still beat him. Back to the midcard for you"...and worse, if kayfabe no longer exists? Cena actually LOSES to that other wrestler, it becomes "so what? You won. But tomorrow morning, he will still be John Cena, and you will still be you, and that means John Cena REALLY won."

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2 hours ago, AxB said:

You'd think, if the idea was for Seth and Roman to be the biggest stars and carrying the company, they would both have Mania wins over at least two of Cena, Orton, Batista, Taker, Triple H or Lesnar. But where is Cena anyway? He did the Rock feud with the whole "I'm not going anywhere" promo, and he's been disappeared for ages. He was attempting to give the rub to younger talent towards the end there, but the two guys he really put over were Punk and Bryan, which didn't do much for the company long term.

Them thinking Seth could be one of the biggest stars is one of their problems. Especially when they had Dean Ambrose under contract. The selection process for "top guy" is completely flawed. They've got Big E doing comedy for the fifth year in a row when he might be the most charismatic guy in the company. The New Day is great, but every one of those guys could be doing more. Someone mentioned Ziggler. That guy should be a HUGE star, instead of going through the motions whenever a top heel needs a lackey. Zack Ryder was never gonna be Hulk Hogan, but there's no reason he couldn't be prime Tito Santana. Rusev Day is another GREAT example. Sure, they got Daniel Bryan right, but only after their shows were hijacked by fans for six months. 

 

There's no reason to expect different. They're gonna put the Smackdown belt on Roman, and it's gonna get a better reaction than any other time he's won the title, and Vince is gonna interpret that as "goddamn, pal, I told you." And they're gonna start sending him out there doing his "Samoan Cena" act he was doing that the fans weren't buying. The problem now is that they can't reform the Shield to take the heat off of Roman. That whole angle was as egregious an act of "fuck our customers and what they think" as I've ever seen. Strowman is getting huge reactions, but instead of taking advantage of the hottest babyface they'd had in a couple years, they go out of their way to cool off Ambrose and Rollins, and kill off Strowman, derail McIntyre, and, well, Ziggler didn't have anything going, so he was fine, but you're ostensibly killing off four top guys so the fans feel conflicted about booing Reigns. 

 

It's fucking brutal. And I think the over-reliance on Lesnar may finally be what deals a serious, undeniable blow to their profits. Just about everyone I know that watched before the Lesnar return has stopped, due to it being "the same shit."

 

My one complaint about the tv show "The Office" is that it feels like sometimes the writers punish you for caring about the characters. "Oh, you want Andy to have a redeemable character arc? Fuck you, here's a boat." Nobody makes you feel like an idiot for investing in characters emotionally than WWE.

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They'll never get Reigns right because they don't know what made Austin or The Rock work. I doubt we see significant change until Vince passes away. He won't walk away. He guided WWE to its height but now can't maintain it. I suppose there's a certain Shakespearean quality to that but that's entertainment.

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41 minutes ago, Six String Orchestra said:

They'll never get Reigns right because they don't know what made Austin or The Rock work. I doubt we see significant change until Vince passes away. He won't walk away. He guided WWE to its height but now can't maintain it. I suppose there's a certain Shakespearean quality to that but that's entertainment.

I think they know what made those guys work, but it's extremely difficult to replicate in this age with numerous different factors. As much shit as Bischoff gets for being out of the loop, listen to the 83 weeks podcast for anytime they cover WCW from spring 96 to pre Starrcade 97-ish. He knew what the fuck he was doing with the NWO for the first year or so. However, even if Bischoff knew what was what in 2020, the chances of him being to recreate that is between slim and none. You got to think about the strengths of the person/people who has/have the most potential to be that big. It most likely won't be a 1:1 comparison to a Stone Cold or The Rock.

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Somewhere along the line the WWE lost track of the fact that they are a professional wrestling company. Not a merch sales company, not a internet service provider or a make a wish foundation. That's their core business. 

The most glaring example is the mishandling of Roman. Put him over. If he's not getting over as a face, turn him mega heel. ( I know, the "smarks" would just cheer him because he's heel. They had no problem booing DB as a heel, that argument is closed, thanks). 18 months as a heel and he turns as the biggest babyface you have. But nope, he sells the most merch! 

If they did pro wrestling first, they'd be fine.

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4 hours ago, AxB said:

You'd think, if the idea was for Seth and Roman to be the biggest stars and carrying the company, they would both have Mania wins over at least two of Cena, Orton, Batista, Taker, Triple H or Lesnar. But where is Cena anyway? He did the Rock feud with the whole "I'm not going anywhere" promo, and he's been disappeared for ages. He was attempting to give the rub to younger talent towards the end there, but the two guys he really put over were Punk and Bryan, which didn't do much for the company long term.

You forgot about AJ Styles who actually won their extended feud.

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2 hours ago, nofuture said:

Fittingly, Smackdown will be in the Bay Area Friday.

Hopefully we'll get nuclear heat. Still remember Elias and Kevin Owens:

Want to bring up Kevin Owens spinning on the stool as Elias strummed and the look Elias gives after THAT line.

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I and others asked why WWE didn't just strap a rocket to AJ Styles as he was clearly the most popular act other than Roman and his merch was selling like crazy.  The answer Meltzer gave is that management felt AJ Styles wasn't young enough to carry the company.  I think they were wrong because he was clearly still in the best shape of his life. 

But oh well. They managed to turn AJ into just another guy like they do with everyone.  Matt Riddle is just another guy and he hasn't even hit the main roster yet.  

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The bigger problem right now with the "how do you rebuild Roman Reigns" thing is that WWE, like any other wrestling promotion, doesn't truly realize the ultimate issue to save the wrestling product flies in the face of every entertainment business manifesto: Sometimes, you just have to let someone walk away. Whether it's an excursion, whether it's firing them, letting them show up in some other promotion and get fans excited about them, then see what happens later, whether it's "how can the fans miss you if you won't go away? So...uh...GO AWAY!", or even if it's "you're a failed experiment, we need to give the roster an enema. We don't really care. Go to AEW or New Japan- go be their problem, but we're better off without you"- sometimes, to make a bigger star, it's not even about "turn them face!" or "turn them heel!" , but as serious as 'you have to let them walk away."

Drew McIntyre's success right now should be seen as the best example of that. McIntyre was always pretty good, but never quite clicked as a big prospect. He was a failed experiment, he tumbled down the card. No one wanted him as a heel, they barely bought it trying to make him flirt with a face turn in the Kelly Kelly stuff, they didn't totally buy in when he did comedy...and ultimately, the best thing WWE could do was to fire him, let him walk away. He gives the WWE audience the chance to miss him, he gives the smarks the chance to see just how good he was outside the company. He comes back, he's put it all together, and now it seems like it's finally taken.

 

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(1)the whole "young enough" to carry the company line is dumb on their part because there is a difference between chronological age and TV age. Yeah, AJ is in his 40s but there's a good percentage of WWE fans who had never seen him before. He was fresh and new and more could have been done with him. Clearly no one learned anything from the Hogan/Savage/Hall/Nash etc jumps of the mid 90s and see how well the old men boosted the other side's business.

(2)it's also so mind bogglingly stupid that it feels like no one there can see the point @joseph2112 brought up. You want Roman as your top guy, push the shit out of him. Fans boo him, turn him. WHAT THE HELL DO THEY THINK HAPPENED TO THE ROCK? We all booed the hell out of him, we got it out of our systems and realized Rock was awesome and everyone made stupid $$$. Is Roman going to be the next Rock? Hell, probably not, but why not see if he COULD be?

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AJ Styles was the face of the Pre Foxsports era of Smackdown, they should have kept it that way. It make not sense to hold age against these full timers when these part time guys are 50 and get 20 to 30 minutes inring time on the biggest shows.

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4 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I and others asked why WWE didn't just strap a rocket to AJ Styles as he was clearly the most popular act other than Roman and his merch was selling like crazy.  The answer Meltzer gave is that management felt AJ Styles wasn't young enough to carry the company.  I think they were wrong because he was clearly still in the best shape of his life. 

 

Styles carried the Smackdown brand. He didn't become just another guy until the move Raw which coincided with their second attempt to make Rollins the top guy for Raw. They were just dumb picking Rollins over AJ and blowing through AJ/Rollins early as a one-off instead of doing face Seth vs. heel AJ as the lead feud for several months.

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I haven’t been watching the WWE. Has Big E improved enough as a singles competitor to be considered for the role as “The Guy”? Because honestly back when he was working singles matches during his initial run I was neither impressed, and thought of him as very reckless in the ring. It took him weeks before I believe an agent pulled him to the side to tell him to stop doing the Vader standing body block. Everytime he did it, he kept inadvertently Headbutting his opponent due to his short stature.

I honestly wish Big E employed a flamboyant clubbering style like Dusty, Jimmy Valiant, and Thunderbird Patterson did. He’d be the perfect guy to bring something like that back. I mean he’s already got the dancing skills, and promos for it.

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6 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

The bigger problem right now with the "how do you rebuild Roman Reigns" thing is that WWE, like any other wrestling promotion, doesn't truly realize the ultimate issue to save the wrestling product flies in the face of every entertainment business manifesto: Sometimes, you just have to let someone walk away. Whether it's an excursion, whether it's firing them, letting them show up in some other promotion and get fans excited about them, then see what happens later, whether it's "how can the fans miss you if you won't go away? So...uh...GO AWAY!", or even if it's "you're a failed experiment, we need to give the roster an enema. We don't really care. Go to AEW or New Japan- go be their problem, but we're better off without you"- sometimes, to make a bigger star, it's not even about "turn them face!" or "turn them heel!" , but as serious as 'you have to let them walk away."

The guy came back from cancer a year ago. Cancer! And the fans were ready to embrace him on his return. It’s unbelievable how they didn’t even come close to capitalising on the good will he has. Instead, falling shelves, Baron Corbin, dog food and the inevitable Bray Wyatt feud that will piss the remaining good will away.

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I think fans need to hate you before they can love you. Austin as a heel vs Bret and Rocky Maivia becoming The Rock.

The longest feud they have is WWE vs the fans. Hence Canada as bizarro land or wrestlers getting humiliated in their hometown. Manufacturing moments instead of allowing organically someone to "grab the brass ring". The best feud going into Wrestlemania last year was fans getting behind Kofi vs Bryan, underdog vs elitist former underdog turned over the top environmentalist. Nothing matters anyways because once it was time for Brock to come back Kofi was done in 6 seconds.

Corbin was solidly amusing in NXT with quips like "go back to ROH". This Corbin-Reigns saga helped neither. I can't help but imagine a violent dog collar match would have at least helped stir some interest. Instead, dog food on everyone. 

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