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14 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Problem is he can't help himself.  He wants that public company money while treating it like it's the same private company he's run by his own whims since the beginning.  Dude fired two C level execs with no warning or plan like they were Ultimate Warrior and Davey Boy.

Are you trying to say that Barrios and Wilson pissed hot?

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52 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

It just felt like everything was much more razor focused on them when they had a whole promotion, and channel devoted to them. Now they feel devalued just being another belt, and weight division in the UFC.

WEC was basically the American version of Shooto. The problem is a promotion only works that way if you only have 7-10 notable fighters at most per division. And that was back when 170-205 had depth issues so focusing on the smaller fighters would actually make sense. Now, you have so much talent (although flyweight is still kinda hit or miss) across the board that having just one company devoted to that is silly. That's why Shooto itself kinda went the way of the dodo bird in terms of overall popularity. Lightweight itself, over the last five or six years at least, has been the best it has ever been. 

And it's several weight classes, not just one. Like I said, WEC was pretty much a transition era. MMA transitioned into something better. Gaethje vs. Poirier, Yair Rodriguez vs. Chan Sung Jung, Ferguson vs. Pettis, Holloway vs. Ortega, Zabit vs. Bochniak, Ferguson vs  Cerrone, DJ vs. Cejudo II, the Alvarez vs. Poirier fights, Cub Swanson vs. Doo Ho Choi, etc. didn't happen in WEC. All that happened in UFC in the last few years and hold up against any fight from any era.

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I disagree on the size of the ring. The best UFC Fight Nights were happening at The Palm inside the smaller octagons. The cage being closer really pushed the pace of the action, and created more of a scramble between both fighters to avoid bumping into the cage during a slugfest. 

The UFC itself only used that smaller octagon during TUF and a few other times (I believe the last official time was Henderson vs. Boetsch in New Orleans back in like 2015).  All other times it was the regular sized octagon they always used. I think you're hallucinating.

 

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I must be misremembering things, but I remember a lot more of those smaller octagon UFC shows. Also yes there have been great UFC matches in recent years, but I still prefer those small octagon WEC/UFC matches over big octagon UFC matches. They were such a great balance of slugfest, and ground war with the fights. It was the closest TV MMA got to looking like a worked shoot fight because of all scrambling in the cage, and guys surviving chokeholds with 30 seconds left on the clock. Maybe I’m just not watching enough MMA today, but I remember those WEC shows being wilder.

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8 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I must be misremembering things, but I remember a lot more of those smaller octagon UFC shows. Also yes there have been great UFC matches in recent years, but I still prefer those small octagon WEC/UFC matches over big octagon UFC matches. They were such a great balance of slugfest, and ground war with the fights. It was the closest TV MMA got to looking like a worked shoot fight because of all scrambling in the cage, and guys surviving chokeholds with 30 seconds left on the clock. Maybe I’m just not watching enough MMA today, but I remember those WEC shows being wilder.

Well, for one, there were a lot of lower level fighters on those WEC shows despite WEC producing several future UFC mainstays. So yeah, it's going to be wilder if everyone isn't that good. And you have more prospect vs. prospect fights. So at it's best, WEC was both high level regional and high level feeder organization. However, you get that all the time in UFC because they have a bunch of fighters under contract and many of those fighters probably should have spent 1-2 more years in the "minor" leagues. If you watch all the regional shows on Fight Pass, chances are you're going to see crazy shit. Matter of fact, Dominick Reyes (who is fighting Jon Jones tonight for the title fwiw) got a shot in the UFC because he had KO of his from LFA basically go viral. He didn't stop being exciting once he got to the UFC, and that demonstrably doesn't make LFA better than UFC. That is just what happens when legit prospects fight lesser fighters or lesser prospects. Same goes when you have legit prospects vs. legit prospects. It's probably going to be a really exciting fight. 

7 hours ago, AxB said:

The 'Big Octagon sucks' thing was basically an offshoot of the 'Demetrious Johnson is boring' thing, wasn't it?

They brought it (the smaller octagon) back really briefly during the mid 2010s. Then, a few journalists (probably John Morgan or Brett Okamoto) before the show start tracking if they brought the small or big octagon when they got to the venue to cover the weigh-in or the card itself. So that started a tiny debate among fans. But if you remember, 2013-2015 is when they had that big rash of injuries and had cards fall apart damn near every week. I remember this because I fucking got tired of @TheVileOne bringing it up every five seconds. 🤣 Some of those cards weren't that good because you had a bunch of late replacements. That New Orleans card that I mentioned earlier was one of the best cards of that year, but look at the talent on the card. That's just great matchmaking and most of all, luck. Moreover, I'm pretty sure there were a few numbered events in 2015 that finished higher than that card for event of the year.

Anyway, they just got tired of lugging the smaller octagon around so that was end of that. 

7 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Fightnomics has my back. 

That doesn't really back up the entertainment value or give any context. There are plenty of fights with finishes that aren't particularly good. In addition, if you're using the larger octagon 4 out of every 5 events (they never used one on PPV or for a bigger Fight Night card) and only using the smaller octagon once in a blue moon, hell yeah, the average is going to be higher. This goes especially if you ramp up the number of fights on the card. They went from having 8 or 9 fights per card max in the early Zuffa days to 10-11 deep in the boom period to 12-13 just to meet fighter contract obligations. They were also introducing new divisions into the mix several years ago. So if they stopped using the smaller cage in the summer of 2015, does that mean UFC ain't had any good events in 4 1/2 years? As someone who has watched pretty much every UFC card since then, I know that is not true. I mean they had some clear bombs like the early UFC Macau/TUF China cards but that was due to the talent on the card. You could have put those guys in a phone booth, and it would have still sucked. 

I think online fan contingent colored the perception of WEC because it was catered more to us than any other promotion since PRIDE FC (which was really catered to Japanese fans but whatever). Apart of that was the use of the smaller, blue cage. However, it's just like when WCW had a certain setup in the early 90s and had the ramp to the ring during the Herd -> K A Frey -> Watts regimes. It's more nostalgia than anything.

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Dave came off pretty delusional talking about how the bubble on rights fees ain't going to pop, that people have been saying that since the 70s. But these hyper inflated fees going back to the past 5 years or so, they do not seem sustainable at all, especially with a dwindling WWE viewership. 

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7 hours ago, Oyaji said:

Dave came off pretty delusional talking about how the bubble on rights fees ain't going to pop, that people have been saying that since the 70s. But these hyper inflated fees going back to the past 5 years or so, they do not seem sustainable at all, especially with a dwindling WWE viewership. 

I think he might be saying that because I haven't heard anyone take less money. That's probably because if you're signing a several year contract, a company is going to have peaks and valleys so you're (as in the people paying those rights fees) basically taking of assessment of that as well as it's future outlook. Now, it seems like I've been hearing about the declining ratings of NASCAR for about a half decade. Has NASCAR's contract with Fox come up and I just missed it or are we at the tail end of it? 

Where I question how much a WWE can get in 2025 and/or afterwards: is someone going to be continually willing to just take one or the other? NFL and the NBA can be on different channels owned by different conglomerates because they are premier sports leagues. UFC ain't that. WWE ain't that. UFC is just the highest level a niche sport can ever possibly achieve. WWE is profiting off being the only real game in town up until two years ago. UFC was able to benefit off that and get the biggest reward possible. ESPN was giving them a lots of coverage prior to the Fox sale and getting the TV rights to UFC. That sale and getting with ESPN lessened the blow of not getting the really high number that they were seeking. That just puts them in position to get more than 4 billion or w/e they were originally seeking later on. With WWE, at some point, I see someone if not every real suitor wanting BOTH Raw and Smackdown and not willing to move off that. I don't see one TV partner owned by one conglomerate offering a ton of money for Raw and then another TV partner owned by another conglomerate offering a ton of money for Smackdown. Getting the pair makes the most sense for a WWE that's not making new fans, and with no indication in the future that they will. So for WWE, in that scenario, they won't be making as much money potentially in total because it's not being sold separately. That's the bubble I really see bursting.

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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I would think that would also be the likeliest time you'll see at least one of the mega media corporations make a bid for the entire company. Why would Amazon or Disney want to buy it now when their content is presented by rival broadcasters?

Re: Nascar, this is what google tells me when I search up their TV contracts:

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2015–2024: Fox and NBC. On October 15, 2012, NASCAR and the Fox Sports Media Group (FSMG) announced a new $2.4 billion eight-year deal, a 30% increase from their previous deal. On July 23, 2013, NASCAR and the NBC Sports Group announced a new $4.4 billion ten-year deal.

 

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1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

I would think that would also be the likeliest time you'll see at least one of the mega media corporations make a bid for the entire company. Why would Amazon or Disney want to buy it now when their content is presented by rival broadcasters?

Re: Nascar, this is what google tells me when I search up their TV contracts:

 

Jeeze, you think with NASCAR’s declining ratings, and attendance that they would get table scraps at this point. Speaking of NASCAR. We’re only a week away from the big race, and thousands of seats are still available. It’s scary to see so much land, and infrastructure all throughout the country for something so fleeting to the populous mind. I don’t see the fans ever coming back unless something completely drastic happens to the design of the sport. 

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I’m gonna tag @Rev Ray since probably will have more insight but NASCAR’s biggest problem is similar to the WWE - inability to create new stars

Dale Jr retired in 2017. Jimmie Johnson is retiring. They have one loathsome individual in Kyle Busch (former 24/7 Champ) and that’s it

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I am a lifelong auto racing fan and much like WWE, I'm almost completely out on Nascar. It's interesting the similarities between the two in some respects int hat there is a large contingency of online fans who just love to bury and complain about it. They also have terrible declining business metrics in almost every area except TV rights and they spent YEARS not reading the marketplace/society and going with the "if you leave, someone else will just take your seat" business plan.

Their TV strength though, is that they have a hardcore base that can draw anytime. for instance, this fall they had 2.57 million viewers for their race in Phoenix which was an all time low. But, it's on a Sunday afternoon directly against the NFL. For a company like NBC who doesn't have Sunday afternoon football, that's quite the audience and I'm not sure there is anything else that can get those numbers.

The "create a star" thing is real to a point, Dale Jr was the biggest name but his career started with a bang and slowly fizzled. He never won the top series championship and you could probably chart the downward spiral of the series right along with his career. (Which would be a good book, btw, but Nascar reporters are mostly hard shills for the sport).

Their "national expansion" basically happened in the early 2000's, they alienated their longtime base, the casuals all figured out it's kind of boring and left and now they are stuck trying to figure out how to bring people back. That sounds familiar.

Anyway, more than you ever wanted to know about Nascar, sorry for the long post.

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7 minutes ago, joseph2112 said:

Their "national expansion" basically happened in the early 2000's, they alienated their longtime base, the casuals all figured out it's kind of boring and left and now they are stuck trying to figure out how to bring people back. That sounds familiar.

That about sums it up to me. It also helped they had some colorful drivers, and a winning driver who looked like Tom Cruise (Jeff Gordon) that you could market to mainstream America during that time.

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I didn't think it was boring as much as I thought they tried to add as many bells and whistles as possible to keep casuals. Also, I think it was hammering home who the stars were instead of letting it happen organically. I mean I came in towards the tail end of the TBS run due to the WCW connection. As soon as they transitioned to a much bigger stage, I started rooting for the underdogs like Ricky Rudd and Sterling Marlin (Marlin was probably cause of that cool ass looking Coors Light car but I digress). Dale Jarrett was also one of my favs. Didn't like Stewart all that much. Didn't have the built in hate for Gordon so I was kinda indifferent. I didn't really care as much for the newish guys as much even though I loved watching the Busch series races. 

What took me out in the end was it taking forever and a day to finish a race that was suppose to end an hour ago. If it is only two or three laps to go as soon they get back to green and we've had a rain delay and like 70 caution laps over the last hour so they have to go to the booth to kill time and do interviews, I am not so much as invested in the chess match of who pits or not cause I'm ready to shoot myself in the head.

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8 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

That about sums it up to me. It also helped they had some colorful drivers, and a winning driver who looked like Tom Cruise (Jeff Gordon) that you could market to mainstream America during that time.

Tom Cruise? More like Ben Shapiro’s long lost brother. 

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On 2/6/2020 at 12:23 PM, Craig H said:

And I'll for sure cancel if PPVs and Takeovers are moved off the Network. There's no fucking way I'm paying for monthly PPVs. The only thing I MIGHT do is order Wrestlemania or Royal Rumble. 

FYI, Takeovers are already available on Hulu. 
 

Given that, plus the fact that NXT was originally (well, the FCW reboot version) on Hulu, it wouldn’t surprise me to see them sign a deal with Disney giving them coverage on Hulu and ESPN+. Disney+ seems like a long shot given they’re moving FX shows and similarly rated things to Hulu.

On 2/6/2020 at 1:17 PM, RIPPA said:

I think what Sean is implying/asking is would the Network finally be used to show those long rumored indie companies (EVOLVE, Progress, WXW, etc)

Becoming a competitor to IWTV and Fite would be one way to salvage the Network after moving their own shows off.

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On 2/9/2020 at 7:42 PM, RIPPA said:

I’m gonna tag @Rev Ray since probably will have more insight but NASCAR’s biggest problem is similar to the WWE - inability to create new stars

Dale Jr retired in 2017. Jimmie Johnson is retiring. They have one loathsome individual in Kyle Busch (former 24/7 Champ) and that’s it

I think the loss of marquis names hurt, but for me a lot of it was them fucking around too much with the formula. It seemed every year there was something new for the chase, then segments in races.  I think the last year of Yahoo fantasy nascar I don't think I watched a single race.  It was also kind of off putting when they started protecting starting spots, it used to be anyone could show up and race their way in, then it was 36 teams had spots and you had defunct teams selling off thier previous season spots to other teams when a legacy like the wood brothers were left out in the cold.

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23 minutes ago, Wyld Samurai said:

They couldn't just make the PPV's available to purchase through the WWE Network? I dont see why not. 

My understanding is that main issue is lack of growth in Network numbers. They can start charging for PPVs, but it won't attract new customers and might (probably would) lose some subs due customers being angry about them now charging extra for same content.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Forgot I wanted to post this earlier - from the new WON

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While there has been no deal that we’ve been able to confirm, in a story that is logical, there have been talks between ESPN and WWE. These talks would be regarding WWE content on ESPN+. It is likely the deal WWE is trying to broker, which is a similar deal to UFC where they would sell the rights to their PPVs to a new streaming service that would pay more than WWE could make on its own from selling the content direct to consumers through the WWE Network. The ESPN+ model with UFC is what opened their eyes. The difference is that with ESPN+ and UFC, the big shows are still PPV’s, with a price tag of a $4.99 per month ESPN+ subscription and $64.99 per show. Whether ESPN+, or somebody else, feels it makes sense to pay, let’s say $140 million to $160 million (numbers obviously can change) per year for rights to something that would be part of the regular $4.99 tier (or perhaps $9.99 from another service) or they’d think it makes more sense to have you have to buy a sub and then also do PPV prices would be interesting. In hindsight, going into these negotiations, Dana White and my thoughts back years ago that WWE was devaluing its key programming is correct, because the WWE PPV deal would be worth so much more if the consumer base still felt $50 or $60 was the price you watch these shows for, and thus they could be marketed like ESPN+ does with UFC, then just part of the standard fare. The one thing an ESPN+ deal brings is that at least for the biggest shows of the year, like WrestleMania in particular, but probably a few others, when ESPN owns a product, they use their shows to market the product heavily. WWE’s big events and biggest stars would get far more mainstream sports exposure out of such a deal and become bigger stars to the sports fans. Really, AEW should be looking into this, although with it being tight with TNT, I don’t know how pursuing ESPN would be, but then again, WWE is tight with FOX and NBCU, and ESPN is Disney/ABC, so it would be the same thing. Ultimately in the current marketplace, the best thing for AEW would be to find a buyer of its PPVs and increase to 12 a year. The problem is timing. WWE has the name value and track record and this appears to be the time new streaming services are starting and willing to spend, and AEW doesn’t have the name or track record, even if Shad Khan, because of who he is, carries a lot of weight

 

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