2020 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[TheVileOne]

4 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yes, he is cause he is one of the only draws that have. You know what the NFL is without stars? The XFL. You know what the NBA is without stars? The G League.

Duh, this is why he can get dummies like you to deflect to stuff like this:

NONE OF THIS has to do with money. You know who is also a fuck up? Conor McGregor. You know who constantly is getting bailed out by the UFC? Conor McGregor. You know who is making a ton of money after pulling several attempts to fleece the UFC for more money? Conor McGregor. He has ONGOING shit constantly. I never heard Dana say, "Well if Conor didn't fuck up, we would pay him more money." It's cause it's fucking stupid and has nothing to do with paying a fighter and never did. And if being held to certain standards was the expectation, Dana White wouldn't have a job.

Take all that money and offer it to Henry Cejudo instead. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, TheVileOne said:

Take all that money and offer it to Henry Cejudo instead. 

Or how about this...crazy idea that I'm just shooting out here...pay the person who is or the people who are going to draw the most business. 

[TheVileOne]

3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Or how about this...crazy idea that I'm just shooting out here...pay the person who is or the people who are going to draw the most business. 

UFC 249 co-headlined by Cejudo vs. Cruz did 700,000 PPV buys during a pandemic with no live fans in attendance. Cejudo is an A+ player who is good for business.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, TheVileOne said:

UFC 249 co-headlined by Cejudo vs. Cruz did 700,000 PPV buys during a pandemic with no live fans in attendanc

Henry Cejudo had basically zero to do with that number. They didn't even market that fight for that show. People who wanted to see Khabib/Ferguson said fuck it and settled for Ferguson vs. Gaethje.

Shit, Henry Cejudo was on a major wrestling show like how many weeks after fighting? Two or three? Like seven people recognized him.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Also, this shows you how much (certain) gold medals mean today unless you're a gymnast, Usain Bolt, or Michael Phelps. You can go somewhere and people will think, "Who is that little weird looking man with the funny hair?"

That's a sad indictment on that achievement and also, sadly, what the UFC has done for Henry Cejudo in terms of increasing his brand awareness. He fought less than a month ago, and won decisively.

[MavsFan77]

Okay this should settle all the Jon Jones is the MMA equivalent of Floyd Mayweather talk. Let’s look at both of their numbers as headliners from September 2011-now:

Jon Jones

UFC 135 vs Rampage (Hughes/Koscheck co-Main) 16,344 attended, 2.1 million Gate 520,000 buys

UFC 140 vs Machida (Mir vs Noguiera Co-Main) 18,303 attended, 3.9 million gate, 480,000 buys 

UFC 145 vs Evans (Macdonald vs Mills Co-Main) 15,545 attended, 2.2 million gate, 700,000 buys

UFC 152 vs Belfort (Johnson vs Benavidez Co-Main) 16,800 attended, 1.9 million gate, 450,000 buys

UFC 159 vs Sonnen (Bisping vs Belcher Co-Main) 15,227 attended, 2.7 million gate, 530,000 buys

UFC 165 vs Gustafson (Barao vs Wineland Co-Main) 15,504 attended, 1.9 million gate, 310,000 buys

UFC 172 vs Teixeira (Rumble vs Davis Co-Main) 13,485 attended, 2.3 million gate, 350,000 buys

UFC 182 vs Cormier (Cerrone vs Jury Co-Main) 11,575 attended, 3.7 million gate, 800,000 buys

UFC 197 vs OSP (Johnson vs Cejudo Co-Main) 11,352 attended, 2.3 million gate, 322,000 buys

UFC 214 vs Cormier 2 (Woodley vs Maia Co-Main) 16,610 attended, 2.48 million gate, 860,000 buys

UFC 232 vs Gustafson 2 (Nunes vs Cyborg Co-Main) 15,862 attended, 2.06 million gate, 700,000 buys

UFC 235 vs Smith (Usman vs Woodley Co-Main) 14,790 attended, 4.03 million gate

UFC 239 vs Santos (Nunes vs Holm Co-Main) 18,358 attended, 6.06 million gate

UFC 247 vs Reyes (Shevchenko vs Chookagian Co-Main) 17,401 attended, 3.54 million gate 

 

Floyd Mayweather:

Vs Victor Ortiz September 2011 13,364 attended, 9 million gate 1.25 million buys 

Vs Miguel Cotto May 2012 14,612 attended, 12 million gate, 1.5 million buys

Vs Robert Guerrero May 2013 14,258 attended, 9.9 million gate, 1 million buys??? (Official numbers unavailable)

Vs Canelo Alvarez September 2013 16,146 attended, 20 million gate, 2.2 million buys

Vs Marcos Maidana May 2014 15,718 attended, 15.02 million gate, 900,000 buys

Vs Marcos Maidana 2 September 2014 14,859 attended, 14.89 million gate, 925,000 buys

Vs Andre Berto September 2015 12,947 attended, 10.06 million gate, 400,000 buys 

 

Notice for Floyd I left out the Manny and Conor fights that way nobody can say I’m being biased or trying to skew it in his favor. Personally I don’t care for Floyd, but I do find him more entertaining than I ever have Jon. Heck I live in the area Jon grew up in, and out of the people I personally know Floyd’s fights generate more interest than any JJ fight that wasn’t against DC. But yeah let’s keep insisting Jon is something special. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

Okay this should settle all the Jon Jones is the MMA equivalent of Floyd Mayweather talk

Nobody said he was the equivalent of Floyd Mayweather. Literally, nobody.

7 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

But yeah let’s keep insisting Jon is something special. 

You're just babbling now if you weren't already.

[MavsFan77]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Nobody said he was the equivalent of Floyd Mayweather. Literally, nobody.

You're just babbling now if you weren't already.

Think whatever you want. You’re the one that came on defending Jon, claiming he’s a much larger draw than he really is, and then to top it off claiming he’s worthy of the amount of money he asked for, because his ppv sales are the “equivalent” of what used to be a million buys. 

Well guess what UFC just like every other business that uses the PPV or streaming model is paid in actual sales not an equivalence to prior years. But nice try. So if he’s only generating 500,000 buys at $65 a buy, and a few years back (let’s say vs DC the second time) he drew 800,000 buys at $65 a buy he’s creating less revenue for the company than he previously did. That’s how a real business works. 

Or are you one of those people that tries to claim that if Gone With The Wind came out today it would be the highest grossing movie of all time instead of Avengers Endgame? Since after all if you use inflation it would’ve made more money. 

But yeah try to discredit anyone that doesn’t go along with your pro Jon Jones rhetoric.

Edited June 1, 2020 by MavsFan77

[MavsFan77]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Or how about this...crazy idea that I'm just shooting out here...pay the person who is or the people who are going to draw the most business. 

And once again where’s the proof your guy is a draw at all? Using your own logic Justin Gaethje should be getting paid the amount of money Jon Jones demanded when he fights next. Since he drew 750,000 buys fighting Tony, and clearly he’s a draw now. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, MavsFan77 said:

Think whatever you want. You’re the one that came on defending Jon, claiming he’s a much larger draw than he really is, and then to top it off claiming he’s worthy of the amount of money he asked for, because his ppv sales are the “equivalent” of what used to be a million buys. 

Nobody said that, dumbass.

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 That’s how a real business works. 

No, a real company works by paying their employees fair wages. Then again, you can get away with that if you have been anti-union since your inception and having independent contractors.

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But yeah try to discredit anyone that doesn’t go along with your pro Jon Jones rhetoric.

You have to start with credit to be DISCREDITED. You have none. Nobody even knows who the hell you are. And nobody even agreed you because what you're saying is nonsensical. And despite people not liking Jon, the fact this happening is the equivalent (hey, there goes that word again) of you getting ratioed.

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And once again where’s the proof your guy is a draw at all? 

Everything that I've said. If you're brain wasn't fried, you would notice that.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[MavsFan77]

8 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Nobody said that, dumbass.

No, a real company works by paying their employees fair wages. Then again, you can get away with that if you have been anti-union since your inception and having independent contractors.

You have to start with credit to be DISCREDITED. You have none. Nobody even knows who the hell you are. And nobody even agreed you because what you're saying is nonsensical. And despite people not liking Jon, the fact this happening is the equivalent (hey, there goes that word again) of you getting ratioed.

Everything that I've said. If you're brain wasn't fried, you would notice that.

Okay you were claiming he does 750,000 buy equivalent which still isn’t true. So yeah go ahead, and call names. That just shows how ignorant you are.

Seriously? Paying a guy that’s not a major draw $5 million (the amount both he and Dana are claiming he’s paid) per fight isn’t a fair wage? Okay. I’ll agree that the majority of the fighters are way underpaid especially when Tyron Woodley was the highest paid fighter on Saturday night for doing basically nothing, and not winning a fight. But to try to act like Jon isn’t fairly compensated is laughable.

Gee it seems like TheVileOne is liking most of my posts, but yeah let’s stick to your childish narrative. And how do I not have any credit? Because some keyboard warrior has decided he’s the MMA authority here? Get over yourself. 

I’ve read your nonsense then I responded with actual buy rate numbers for your guy. So once again you’re trying to insult me for no reason, and showing how foolish you are. None of those figures show him to be a draw. So sit your ass down, and stop insulting me, and calling names. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by MavsFan77
Typo

[jaedmc]

Yeah that's enough.

[Elsalvajeloco]

22 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

Okay you were claiming he does 750,000 buy equivalent which still isn’t true.

I've said nothing of the sort. You're having an argument about nothing.

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Seriously? Paying a guy that’s not a major draw $5 million (the amount both he and Dana are claiming he’s paid) per fight isn’t a fair wage? 

Yes. Just because Wendy's can pay you minimum wage doesn't mean you can get mad cause someone is asking for more money.

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Gee it seems like TheVileOne is liking most of my posts

Hmm, that really lets me know you just started posting here. 

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So sit your ass down, and stop insulting me, and calling names. 

As soon as you stop posting stupid, inane stuff, I will. But since you can't do that anymore thanks to the admins and out of respect to jae, I've already put your ignoramus, peabrain ass on ignore. Have a wonderful day, Willie Pep.

 

[username]

The thought that Jon Jones/Ngannou wouldn't draw a very high buyrate, perhaps not quite a million but dramatically higher than either would normally produce is simply silly. The two of them deciding "well if this fight is going to make a lot more money, we should probably get paid more" isn't silly at all and is just common sense.

 

Like I think Jon Jones is a hugely talented fuck up who I think very little of as a person but he's not doing a single thing wrong here and I think some are blinded by their personal dislike of the man to the realities of this current particular situation.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[jaedmc]

Curtis Blaydes is in a funky position. There's the Stipe/Cormier logjam at top, and the one guy ahead of him is the guy who stopped him twice. He's just gotta keep fending people off until they open the door, but at this rate it could be another year.

Whittaker/Till is my jam.

[Elsalvajeloco]

If Stipe beats DC again and Ngannou somehow beats Miocic, are we heading towards a Ngannou-Blaydes trilogy? I thought it was a matchup between the two best potential prospects in the HW division at the time, but I did not see a possible trilogy happening.

They really need some other prospects at HW. They do have young(ish) heavyweights especially compared to the past: Blaydes (29), Volkov (31), Sakai (29), Sergei Pavlovich (28), Ciryl Gane (29). Greg Hardy, despite playing multiple years in the NFL, is still only 31 and doesn't turn 32 until July. Tuivasa is only 27, but I don't see him having much of a future in the UFC. Out of all those guys, the only guy I see as a real threat in the future to any of the legit heavyweights left is Gane. The conundrum is he's trained by the same person that gave us Ngannou in Fernand Lopez. Lopez and Ngannou kinda have this off and on relationship especially with Ngannou being in the states now and Lopez trying to grow MMA in France. Maybe it's possible he is willing to put his latest pupil against his old pupil. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Craig H]

Man, bias aside, I'd much rather see Stipe vs Blaydes than Ngannou vs Blaydes. Still, Stipe vs Blaydes just kinda illustrates your point that UFC needs other prospects at HW. The problem is that at HW, it feels like outside of Ngannou, it takes twice as long as any other division to build up a prospect. It took years for Stipe to get that fight against Werdum and along the way he still had struggles against dudes like JDS and Struve.

Unless you're someone who looks like Mike Tyson in Punch-Out!! (basically Ngannou) then you're going to be on a long and winding path like Stipe is on in a division that looks shallower than any other.

Also, as much as I like Stipe, I like DC just as much and I'm not entirely convinced that Stipe can beat DC again unless DC is just too old and slow.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Man, bias aside, I'd much rather see Stipe vs Blaydes than Ngannou vs Blaydes. Still, Stipe vs Blaydes just kinda illustrates your point that UFC needs other prospects at HW. The problem is that at HW, it feels like outside of Ngannou, it takes twice as long as any other division to build up a prospect. It took years for Stipe to get that fight against Werdum and along the way he still had struggles against dudes like JDS and Struve.

Unless you're someone who looks like Mike Tyson in Punch-Out!! (basically Ngannou) then you're going to be on a long and winding path like Stipe is on in a division that looks shallower than any other.

Also, as much as I like Stipe, I like DC just as much and I'm not entirely convinced that Stipe can beat DC again unless DC is just too old and slow.

And I don't want to count out Stipe cause he managed to avenge that loss and also held up considerably well compared to other fighters who have been in the UFC this long. However, he's averaging like a fight a year. Plus, all this feels like the end of era especially with Werdum losing and then JDS losing before that. Ok, you can keep Arlovski facing low level fringe UFC heavyweights as @supremebve proposed so then that solves that problem. Overeem can still win fights here and there. Rothwell and Oleneik are still trudging along, but they're not real contenders. Even if COVID-19 had never happened, none of those guys feel like that this is just going to be their year.  All of those guys are relics now.

And speaking of bygone eras, since boxing isn't returning in some form until another week or two, I've been watching a whole bunch of old fights. One from the other day was Tony "TNT" Tubbs vs. Tim Witherspoon for the WBA version of the heavyweight title in January 1986 with Tubbs as the incumbent champion after unseating Greg Page the prior April. Tubbs, who generally came in no higher than 220ish, came in well out of shape at 244 for his first title defense against Witherspoon. Witherspoon had already held the WBC title after winning the vacant title against Page two years prior. However, he lost in his first defense against Pinklon Thomas. Prior to that he had flirted with almost beating Larry Holmes for the same title in 1983. I say all this to say that the fight itself, which was not the worst fight I've seen but still ugly as hell, was a microcosm of the heavyweight division for the last several years after Ali retired when he avenged the loss to Leon Spinks (and then promptly came back for more money). Holmes was a pretty damn good long reigning champion, but there was a whole host of guys who really didn't stand out from each other in the late 70s/early 80s. You had those guys listed above as well as Renaldo Snipes, Quick Tillis, the other Tony TNT in Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith, Gerrie Coetzee, Mike Weaver, Big John Tate, Carl Williams, Duane Bobick, Trevor Berbick, Jerry Williams, David Bey, etc. You had the Great White Hope in Gerry Cooney. James "Buster" Douglas is around as sort of an also ran. Tyrell Biggs became a pro in 84 after winning Olympic gold that same year. Plenty of those guys were good, solid fighters, but you never thought any of those guys were going to put together a sustained run. As such, some of those guys traded those titles several times in a very short span. Add in the creation of the IBF in 1983, and it quickly gaining credibility as an alphabet organization. So you got "three" world champions (at the time of Tubbs/Witherspoon for the WBA, Michael Spinks as IBF champ/linear champ and Pinklon Thomas as WBC champ two months before losing it to Berbick) with no serious weight behind any of them. They were planning to do a tournament to crown an undisputed champion, but what would throw a monkey wrench into those plans was the fucking godsend and phenomenon called Mike Tyson in the same year of 1986. And after watching the fifteen round mess of Witherspoon upsetting Tubbs for the WBA title, Tyson couldn't have came any sooner. You're just watching one guy in Witherspoon show he is slightly better than the other guy in Tony Tubbs, who came in ridiculously out of shape. I'm saying this as someone who liked Witherspoon as a fighter FWIW. As a viewer watching a fight for the supposed heavyweight title, you expect more than that. I think the great Barry Tompkins, who was the PBP guy for HBO prior to Lampley, summed it up succinctly at the end of the broadcast. Tompkins declared, "Witherspoon showed up with something left in the tank. Tubbs?....Well, he just had the tank." 

That's the perfect encapsulation for what they didn't know at the time was a transition era.  That's how I feel about Stipe vs. DC III. Even if the fight is exciting just like the first two, it's going to be hard for anyone to believe that is indicative for the future of the UFC heavyweight division. 

[Jiji]

6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Rothwell and Oleneik are still trudging along, but they're not real contenders.

Why must you be so cruel?  I CAN DREAM, CAN'T I?!

[Elsalvajeloco]

If Alexey Oleneik becomes a champion in his what? Fifth decade as a fighter? I think that might be a good excuse to shutter the division. You're not topping that shit.

[Jiji]

He'll become the Bill Goldberg of heavyweight MMA. Come in, wildly swing to get inside, arm triangle before he gasses at the 4 minute mark of round 1.

While some of the traditionally shallower divisions have some fresh new faces challenging for the title, heavyweight is pretty much just Ngannou, Blaydes, and Volkov as serious threats outside of the old guys. All three of those guys have holes in their game that have made them beatable at one point in the not too distant past. Gane and Hardy still look at least a couple of years away even with how thin the division is. But if you can make it in the NFL, boxing, or other sports that pays huge athletic people handsomely and early (less so boxing here), why would you get into MMA? Unless you absolutely love the sport as a kid, I just don't see the point in becoming a mixed martial artist when there are less physically damaging and far more lucrative ventures out there. 

If this were a just world, Derrick Lewis would string like 5 KOs together and be champion defending against Oleinik, off the back of 5 straight flash ARM TRIANGLES, in the main event of UFC's biggest show. Instead, both guys gas out and lose to dorks.

[jaedmc]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If Stipe beats DC again and Ngannou somehow beats Miocic, are we heading towards a Ngannou-Blaydes trilogy? I thought it was a matchup between the two best potential prospects in the HW division at the time, but I did not see a possible trilogy happening.

 

I mean if all of that happens then yeah you have to do a third fight.

Do people think Ngannou is actually an improved fighter since his Miocic loss? I guess it doesn't matter. His kind of power makes his matches a coinflip. But if guys can figure out how to evade the punch rush what evidence do people have that he can adjust? Does he even have to adjust?

If everything you said plays out, I'd hope for a third Blaydes fight, just because I believe he's improving his game and it could turn out different - but I'll admit that's partly some Chicago bias on my part.

 

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, jaedmc said:

I mean if all of that happens then yeah you have to do a third fight.

Do people think Ngannou is actually an improved fighter since his Miocic loss? I guess it doesn't matter. His kind of power makes his matches a coinflip. But if guys can figure out how to evade the punch rush what evidence do people have that he can adjust? Does he even have to adjust?

If everything you said plays out, I'd hope for a third Blaydes fight, just because I believe he's improving his game and it could turn out different - but I'll admit that's partly some Chicago bias on my part.

 

I doubt he's approved enough for it to matter against Miocic or Cormier.  Heavyweight MMA is terrible, and isn't getting better.  The Walt Harris fight the other week showed that a younger fighter from a newer generation of fighters doesn't have the skill base to compete with a fighter who has been fighting since the 1990s.  Harris is a top 10 heavyweight, and has no idea how to grapple.  The reason guys like Overeem and Arlovski have a place in the UFC is that they have a good enough base of skills to compete against a division full of dudes who have limited skill sets.  Just think how long we've been joking about both of those guys glass jaws.  They're still around because they're fighting a bunch of dudes who have no idea how to set up their strikes, or defend takedowns, or whatever else they need to do to consistently finish two dudes with the worst chins in the entire sport.  

 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

He'll become the Bill Goldberg of heavyweight MMA. Come in, wildly swing to get inside, arm triangle before he gasses at the 4 minute mark of round 1.

While some of the traditionally shallower divisions have some fresh new faces challenging for the title, heavyweight is pretty much just Ngannou, Blaydes, and Volkov as serious threats outside of the old guys. All three of those guys have holes in their game that have made them beatable at one point in the not too distant past. Gane and Hardy still look at least a couple of years away even with how thin the division is. But if you can make it in the NFL, boxing, or other sports that pays huge athletic people handsomely and early (less so boxing here), why would you get into MMA? Unless you absolutely love the sport as a kid, I just don't see the point in becoming a mixed martial artist when there are less physically damaging and far more lucrative ventures out there. 

I mean in the past they (meaning the UFC) could siphon heavyweights from the Eastern European scene and a bunch of NFL washouts. They could get guys off the regional scene who seemed promising. There is just less and less of those guys out there. I thought Chi Lewis-Parry was going to be a savior because he had the skills and the charisma. Turns out he was more bark than bite. Then, he was closed to signing with the UFC at the tail end of last year and it never happened. He's already 36. Plus, he has a history of not getting along with organizations (see Glory Kickboxing) he's fighting for. He is very outspoken. That's not a good recipe for fighting for the UFC.

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If this were a just world, Derrick Lewis would string like 5 KOs together and be champion defending against Oleinik, off the back of 5 straight flash ARM TRIANGLES, in the main event of UFC's biggest show. Instead, both guys gas out and lose to dorks.

That fight could only end with Derrick escaping an no-gi Ezekiel choke or two and then knocking Alexey out with like 2 seconds left in the fifth in an otherwise bowling shoe ugly matchup.

57 minutes ago, jaedmc said:

I mean if all of that happens then yeah you have to do a third fight.

Do people think Ngannou is actually an improved fighter since his Miocic loss? I guess it doesn't matter. His kind of power makes his matches a coinflip. But if guys can figure out how to evade the punch rush what evidence do people have that he can adjust? Does he even have to adjust?

Ngannou is basically an elevated version of what boxing had fifteen years ago with Samuel Peter, and it's not just because both are from sub-Saharan Africa. He was the closest thing to a young Tyson that boxing had for awhile. He almost won a title eliminator against Wladimir after having him badly hurt (BTW that was main event and the co-main was one of my favorite brutal boxing wars of all time, Miguel Cotto vs. late sub Ricardo Torres) and then eventually wins a piece of the heavyweight title only to lose it to the returning Vitali Klitschko in his first defense. Sam wasn't so much a so called mental midget, but when asked to do something out of the ordinary, he could never put it together. If you meet Ngannou in the middle like two rams butting heads, yeah, he's likely to win that. However, even if you test him through trying to grind away, he still has that great eraser. I doubt he fights the Derrick Lewis fight the same way. Cain Velasquez was way too physically depreciated to really offer Ngannou any resistance, although, I still give Ngannou credit for that win. I originally thought Cormier was a real bad matchup for him, but then, he went and got himself knocked out by Stipe. It's very difficult for a guy like DC, especially having already made up his mind about retiring, to recover from something like that. For Stipe, he basically has to go in there and repeat his same performance from UFC 220 with no margin for error. That itself is extremely difficult. So unlike with Sam Peter, there is a doorway where Ngannou can be around being able to fight like he usually does and not break a sweat because no one can truly test him like that again. He has recreated that aura around himself.

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If everything you said plays out, I'd hope for a third Blaydes fight, just because I believe he's improving his game and it could turn out different - but I'll admit that's partly some Chicago bias on my part.

My issues with Curtis Blaydes' chances is in the first fight, he took too much punishment. He took it well for a guy going against that type of firepower, but you don't want a young fighter in that situation early in his career. To his credit, he bounced back. In the second fight, he got hit once and it was over. He's a good puncher, but his bread and butter is still wrestling. That's his only avenue unless Ngannou just regresses as a fighter, which I think is more important than Ngannou making appreciable improvements. Two different looking fights...same outcome.

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco