The Big Game, v.54

[EdA]

8 hours ago, supremebve said:

I don't know, I think plenty of people still bring up Jim Brown.  It could be me, because I'm a Browns fan and grew up with a grandfather who told me early and often that Jim Brown was the best football player of all time.  I think Jim Brown and Jerry Rice are the two players who still get brought up among current players as all-time greats.  Larry Fitzgerald is close to reaching Jerry Rices receptions record, if he plays another 2 or 3 years he can get there.  He'd have to play at least 5 if not 6 to catch him in yards and he'd have to play another decade or more to catch that many touchdowns.  Jerry Rice is still the best wide receiver we've ever seen, and I honestly don't know what would have to happen for anyone to catch him in yards or touchdowns.

Rippa and I were chatting about Brown, actually.  While everyone of a certain age (us, essentially) was told Jim Brown was the baddest of all motherfuckers, watching the NFL Network sure wouldn't hip you to that.  They clearly want Barry Sanders as their RB GOAT.  Which...the footage of him is not in black and white, so...sure?

And actually, Jim Brown might be one of Rippa's handful of older player examples who would dominate just fine if you placed him in today's game.

And as far as Johnny U - when I was a kid, he was always considered the GOAT QB pre-Montana.  Not sure how/why/when he dropped to just some old dude.

Edited January 23, 2020 by EdA

[odessasteps]

I was a Lions fan at the time, but I've come around on thinking Emmitt was better than Barry. Insert GB playoff game anecdote here. 

I presume the myth of Brown would not be so strong had he played out the normal career path of an elite RB. Leaving on top (to go to Hollywood) helps a great deal. Plus, he became a cultural touchstone too. 

 

[FluffSnackwell]

Jim Brown would've undoubtedly been a Hall Of Famer in any era, but I can't ignore how he was almost always the strongest and fastest player on the field. He was also one of the bigger players on the field considering that most teams only had a handful of 250-260 lb. players. Of course he dominated all those slow toothless slobs, most of whom took cigarette breaks between series. While a modern training regimen would have made Brown even more superhuman, if the rest of the players (in his era) also had a modern training regimen, it would've actually been to their overall advantage in narrowing the physical gap between them and Brown. The NFL also didn't fully embrace integration until the 70's, after the NFL/AFL merger, which significantly lowered the overall talent pool compared to the modern era. 

[Death From Above]

Everything I have seen of Brown in highlights makes him look like a guy with Marshawn Lynch level power, but significantly better pullaway speed relative to his era. He was a goddamn monster.

[Niners Fan in CT]

When I was growing up it seemed like Jim Brown was still considered the GOAT football player and Montana/Unitas were 1 and 2 for QBs.   Then Jerry Rice got some serious consideration of GOAT football player. 

Like I said before,  it's just an entirely different game.  You can only really compare how good someone was vs. their peers.   I think Eli Manning will be in the Hall of Fame for his postseason success but if you were to go year by year statistically, he doesn't stand out as much,  when you go by career stats he does.  

[supremebve]

12 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

When I was growing up it seemed like Jim Brown was still considered the GOAT football player and Montana/Unitas were 1 and 2 for QBs.   Then Jerry Rice got some serious consideration of GOAT football player. 

Like I said before,  it's just an entirely different game.  You can only really compare how good someone was vs. their peers.   I think Eli Manning will be in the Hall of Fame for his postseason success but if you were to go year by year statistically, he doesn't stand out as much,  when you go by career stats he does.  

I'm not going to talk shit about Eli Manning on the day of his retirement.  He is the most likely the best Giants quarterback ever (I never watched Y.A. Tittle*) and has two of the most unlikely championships of all-time, but the only passing statistic he ever led the league in was interceptions.  He was very good, and should live in the hearts of Giants fans forever, but that doesn't make you a Hall of Famer.  For what it's worth, everyone seems to love him which is probably a huge part of why he's even considered as a hall of famer.  

*Y.A. Tittle's 1963 season was better than any Eli Manning season...he was 37 years old.  His Giant's career was only 4 years though.  Y.A. Tittle also won MVP and was a 2 time All-Pro as a Giant.  He's probably the best Giants quarterback, unless you think being average for an extended time is better than being great for a short time.  

Edited January 24, 2020 by supremebve
I actually looked up Y.A. Tittle's stats

[Brian Fowler]

Jim Brown refused to pass block. That might be a problem in the modern era

[BobbyWhioux]

best finally get around to putting Plunkett in first if you're gonna put in Eli Manning

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think Eli was better vs. his peers than Plunkett but what's interesting is Jim also has a .500 QB record.  Found that interesting. 

[Brian Fowler]

Manning's best case is those two playoff runs. Not just that he won two rings, but he legitimately played great football in both postseasons. Something like 19 TDs against 2 ints.

[odessasteps]

3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think Eli was better vs. his peers than Plunkett but what's interesting is Jim also has a .500 QB record.  Found that interesting. 

I wonder who the "best QB with poor record" would be? 

Archie Manning? 

[supremebve]

9 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

Manning's best case is those two playoff runs. Not just that he won two rings, but he legitimately played great football in both postseasons. Something like 19 TDs against 2 ints.

Honest question, would you rather have had Donovan McNabb or Tony Romo for most of their careers?  Does anyone think either of those two are Hall of Famers?  

[The Man Known as Dan]

5 hours ago, supremebve said:

Honest question, would you rather have had Donovan McNabb or Tony Romo for most of their careers?  Does anyone think either of those two are Hall of Famers?  

For whatever it’s worth, I think McNabb at his best was better then Eli at his best, but I think Eli seemed to always be at his best when it mattered most, and McNabb wasn’t.

[The Man Known as Dan]

14 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder who the "best QB with poor record" would be? 

Archie Manning? 

Matthew Stafford would seem like a pretty easy pick here, but I’m not sure how bad his actual record was.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Matt Stafford is a healthy 69-79-1 for his career but in all seriousness he does have 4 winning seasons.  It could be worse, he's been through a lot with that team. 

[Tabe]

On 1/24/2020 at 10:06 PM, odessasteps said:

I wonder who the "best QB with poor record" would be? 

Archie Manning? 

Well, Joe Namath was under .500...

[The Man Known as Dan]

1 minute ago, Tabe said:

Well, Joe Namath was under .500...

He also had almost 50 more interceptions then touchdowns. Which, yeah, different eras, but I’d say Stafford would be a better answer.

[odessasteps]

21 minutes ago, Tabe said:

Well, Joe Namath was under .500...

I would not put Namath in the "great QB" class myself, so I would not have mentioned him. 

[AxB]

So is the USA media selling the game as Mahomes vs Garrapolo, or are they going with old school San Fran vs QB magic Kansas?

Because if one were to judge just based on the Divisional Championship games, you'd think the 49ers were a running back, a pass rush and able to hold a lead against a team who took the first half off. Whilst KC were all flash and speed and breaking tackles once they got warmed up.

[Death From Above]

Namath isn't just one of the worst football HOFers but honestly one of the worst in any North American sport.

[odessasteps]

15 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

Namath isn't just one of the worst football HOFers but honestly one of the worst in any North American sport.

Arguably the best example of an athlete being elevated above their level by playing in New York. 

[FluffSnackwell]

On 1/24/2020 at 11:40 PM, Brian Fowler said:

Manning's best case is those two playoff runs. Not just that he won two rings, but he legitimately played great football in both postseasons. Something like 19 TDs against 2 ints.

15/2 was the actual ratio, which is still insane. Especially compared to Peyton's 5/8 ratio. The first run had several games where Eli was only asked to be a bus driver (14/21, 166 yards, 2 TD in the Divisional Round against the Cowboys, the go-ahead TD run was set up by a punt return). The Cowboys also got the ball back at the end of the game, only after Coughlin decided to play it safe, take the ball out of Eli's hands and call three straight runs to try and end the game with a first down. I was sure the Giants were going to pass the ball and probably get a first down. Draining the clock turned out to be the right decision though. Eli's second Super Bowl run was where he really played like a legend; even though the average fan will be more likely to cite the helmet catch in Super Bowl XLII and not the sick throw to Manningham in Super Bowl XLVI. 

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, FluffSnackwell said:

15/2 was the actual ratio, which is still insane. Especially compared to Peyton's 5/8 ratio. The first run had several games where Eli was only asked to be a bus driver (14/21, 166 yards, 2 TD in the Divisional Round against the Cowboys, the go-ahead TD run was set up by a punt return). The Cowboys also got the ball back at the end of the game, only after Coughlin decided to play it safe, take the ball out of Eli's hands and call three straight runs to try and end the game with a first down. I was sure the Giants were going to pass the ball and probably get a first down. Draining the clock turned out to be the right decision though. Eli's second Super Bowl run was where he really played like a legend; even though the average fan will be more likely to cite the helmet catch in Super Bowl XLII and not the sick throw to Manningham in Super Bowl XLVI. 

The fact that he won the MVP of their fist Super Bowl is kind of crazy.  That defense, that was middle of the road that year, held the best offense we've ever seen to 14 points.  That's why they won.  Eli made a huge play, and wasn't bad, but he wasn't the most valuable person on the field.  Justin Tuck had the best counting stats, but they should have figured out how to give the MVP to the entire defensive line.  

The second MVP is a reward for being lights out the entire playoffs.  It is probably the one stretch of time when he was legitimately great.  The Super Bowl itself was one of those games when everyone contributed so I have no issue with them rewarding the player who lead them there.  

 

[Mister TV]

19 hours ago, Death From Above said:

Namath isn't just one of the worst football HOFers but honestly one of the worst in any North American sport.

There's a lot of politics involved in the Football HOF voting, once they get down to a certain number of candidates the voters who are sportswriters representing each team meet and make their case for or against certain players. There was no way in hell the sportswriters repping the AFL teams were going to keep Namath out and the Super Bowl win along with the number he put up pre knee injuries were enough to sway NFL writers. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

Late stage capitalism sucks.