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2020 DOCUMENTARY THREAD


Dolfan in NYC

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So I've now seen all of The Vow and ... it sucked.  Such a huge disappointment after the wild first episode.  Instead of compelling TV and great reporting, we got 9 hours of navel-gazing and interminable filler videos that served no purpose.  There was probably a solid 60-90 minute documentary in this material but the producers seemed intent on using the vast amount of archive footage they have of Raniere and his people.  We're talking about people who recorded absolutely everything all the time - like 3am walks.  So much of the series just meanders with no point or is random conversations and vignettes that have no context.  Good grief.  Such a promising start and it ends up being really, really bad.

ANNNNNNND HBO just ordered season 2.  *facepalm*.

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Feels Good Man was pretty good, if fairly disheartening about the state of the country and the human race as a whole. At least it ends with somewhat of a happy ending. My big takeaway from it is that there are A LOT of mentally ill people that go untreated in this country, and in this world as a whole, and that is something that desperately needs to change. Being explained the focus and behavior of 4chan and its users underlines this. The documentary doesn't pass judgment on them either... except for the ones that pushed it too far. It should also serve as a cautionary tale for artists. If the internet is taking your shit and running with it, it's time to lawyer up.

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On 10/20/2020 at 4:53 PM, Tabe said:

So I've now seen all of The Vow and ... it sucked.  Such a huge disappointment after the wild first episode.  Instead of compelling TV and great reporting, we got 9 hours of navel-gazing and interminable filler videos that served no purpose.  There was probably a solid 60-90 minute documentary in this material but the producers seemed intent on using the vast amount of archive footage they have of Raniere and his people.  We're talking about people who recorded absolutely everything all the time - like 3am walks.  So much of the series just meanders with no point or is random conversations and vignettes that have no context.  Good grief.  Such a promising start and it ends up being really, really bad.

ANNNNNNND HBO just ordered season 2.  *facepalm*.

I'm okay with The Vow as it is, since it gives background on the organization, the history, Raniere, his inner circle, the people that left, etc. A 60-90 minute documentary would probably just speed through all of that and focus on Raniere and Mack and stuff like that. This is mainly about the survivors and their stories and the LONG process it took to finally have them see justice.

But there's absolutely no need for a S2.

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I binged watched the Showtime documentary series about the history of The Comedy Store and for stand up comedy fans it is great.  So many crazy stories from the beginning of the club and then it's dark times like the comedy strike and then the death of Sam Kinison.    The last episode was kind of strange because it seems to be heavy Joe Rogan but it did relive that whole Carlos Mencia incident which was crazy at it's peak.   

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6 hours ago, hammerva said:

I binged watched the Showtime documentary series about the history of The Comedy Store and for stand up comedy fans it is great.  So many crazy stories from the beginning of the club and then it's dark times like the comedy strike and then the death of Sam Kinison.    The last episode was kind of strange because it seems to be heavy Joe Rogan but it did relive that whole Carlos Mencia incident which was crazy at it's peak.   

That show has gone down hill since a great first episode, I never found Joe Rogan funny and I’ve always been perplexed on how anyone finds him funny. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm watching Screwball, the documentary about Tony Bosch, who was A-Rod's steroid dealer.  Tony Bosch's explanation of the difference between a fake doctor and an unlicensed doctor is worth the watch by itself.

Edited by supremebve
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On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 4:53 PM, Tabe said:

So I've now seen all of The Vow and ... it sucked.  Such a huge disappointment after the wild first episode.  Instead of compelling TV and great reporting, we got 9 hours of navel-gazing and interminable filler videos that served no purpose. 

I don't think The Vow sucked, but it wasn't as clinical as I'd have liked it to be.   The Vow focused more on the catharsis of Vincente and Edmondson and what they decided to do once they got out.   Seduced felt more like the by-the-numbers documentary I wanted The Vow to evolve into, but I am glad that The Vow had a more personal touch even though I think it ultimately served as a vehicle to get Vincente and Edmonson's narrative out in the open before the shit hit the fan. 

Either that, or the mission of The Vow is to portray Mark and Sarah as decent and intelligent people overwhelmed by a force they thought was altruistic rather than a couple of imbeciles suckered in by a con man.  Their collective complicity doesn't exactly make Mark and Sarah out to be the kind of people that deserve any sympathy.

It was very interesting to watch Mark continue to struggle with his NXIVM teachings even after he left the organization and the void that remains in Mark's belief system that he has no idea how to fill again is a testament to potency of Keith Raniere's snake oil.  "Getting out" and "escape" can sometimes be mutually exclusive.

I think you almost need to watch both docs side by side to get a better feel of what's really going on.  It is startling to hear Sarah and Mark recount the joy and energy they felt during V-Week and then flip over to the cult psychiatrist on Seduced pointing out the psychological techniques of collect / convince / control being used on the V-Week participants.  Weaponized euphoria is a bitch.

It is also scary to discover that the techniques Rainere used to groom and condition the women in DOS were gleaned from the social experiments he conducted with the male membership of his Society of Protectors group and JNESS served as a feeder population for recruitment into DOS.  All of that content from Seduced is fine and dandy, but actually watching The Vow and seeing how the effects of all of that programming still impact Mark and Sarah's behavior on an intimate level to this very day is what makes Seduced feel more compelling, IMO.

Seduced also has the power of India Oxenberg's testimony.  She has the feel of someone who is putting in the work for her deprograming and coming to grips with her indoctrination.  She does not wax nostalgic about her time in DOS.   It is a nightmare to her. 

Meanwhile on The Vow, Mark and Sarah are both desperate to find something good from their ordeal so they won't feel that they wasted their time with NXIVM.  They look through old photos, watch videos of V-Week, and remember how awesome it felt to be a part of that community... even though it was all a lie.

It is sad, but part of the charm of S1 of The Vow is that the story is told from the perspective of two people who still seem to have their heads shoved up their asses.   I want to like Mark Vicente, but I can't shake the feeling that it would probably feel really good to punch him in the face.

He seems like a brutally honest and genuinely decent person, but he really does come off as the most naïve and socially clueless person on the planet.  I guess that what made him a prime target.... that and NXIVM apparently had need of someone to serve as Rainere's chronicler and propagandist.

I am not even sure what to make of Nicki Clyne.  Is she a victim?  A co-conspirator?  The mind reels.

I think that S2 of The Vow is mostly going to focus on Keith himself.   As much as I would like to hear him explain away everything, I am not sure if it is wise to give this narcissistic asshole a forum so that he can feel important from all of the attention focused on him.  That is exactly what he craves.  The best punishment for him is to let his punk ass rot in jail in total obscurity. 

I have already decided that I'm not going to watch Season 2 because I don't want to entertain Rainere's bullshit.  No offense to the creators and producers of the mini-series.

Edited by J.T.
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Citizen Bio on Showtime is fucking awesome.   If you didn't hate big pharma enough already during this pandemic, you will after watching this shit.  Yes, ultimately you may make vilifying judgements about Aaron Traywic's motives, but you may also begin to question why for profit health care always seems to be needlessly cost prohibitive. 

Biohackers may seem weird but when you watch them work and listen to their ideas, you can't help but feel that cyberpunk loop slowly closing around society.  

We've already got powerful corporations, alternate facts, always on internet that follows you almost everywhere, and cost effective global surveillance, right?  Back alley body modification is right around the corner.

Edited by J.T.
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7 hours ago, J.T. said:

I don't think The Vow sucked, but it wasn't as clinical as I'd have liked it to be.   The Vow focused more on the catharsis of Vincente and Edmondson and what they decided to do once they got out.   Seduced felt more like the by-the-numbers documentary I wanted The Vow to evolve into, but I am glad that The Vow had a more personal touch even though I think it ultimately served as a vehicle to get Vincente and Edmonson's narrative out in the open the shit hit the fan. 

(...)

He seems like a brutally honest and genuinely decent person, but he really does come off as the most naïve and socially clueless person on the planet.  I guess that what made him a prime target.... that and NXIVM apparently had need of someone to serve as Rainere's chronicler and propagandist.

 

My issue with The Vow isn't the direction they took or that it focused on Mark and Sarah's narrative or whatever.  My issue was simply in the construction of it - the pacing was brutal and it dragged big-time.  It was 2 hours dragged into 9 or 10.

As for Mark, like you, I believe he is a genuinely decent guy.  He's very definitely naive.  I think he and Sarah are also conflicted because they found some good things in NXIVM and they are having a hard time reconciling that with all the other stuff.  Yes, some of the good things were based on a lie but some of the teachings and friendships were legit good on at least some level.  And it must be hard to reconcile the conflict between those feelings and the horror of the branding and other stuff.

I still need to check out Seduced.

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2 hours ago, Tabe said:

My issue with The Vow isn't the direction they took or that it focused on Mark and Sarah's narrative or whatever.  My issue was simply in the construction of it - the pacing was brutal and it dragged big-time.  It was 2 hours dragged into 9 or 10.

I think the construction issues and brutal pacing were definitely due to the narrative.  Every episode felt like a deliberate effort to pre-repudiate anyone else's notions of Mark & Sarah's role in the grander scheme of NXIVM before they were ever formed.  Thanks to The Vow, you can't help but avoid assigning any sinister motives to Vincente's activities in NXIVM because the doc has more than hammered home the idea that Mark was just some well meaning and idealistic schlep that got assimilated into a cult of personality.

If you watched Seduced before you watched The Vow, I think you'd definitely have a far worse opinion of Vincente because he definitely looks like he's dialed in and enjoys his role as Rainere's right hand propagandist.  I believe the role of The Vow is to allow Mark Vincente to tell his story first and give him the chance to shape your opinion of him for you before you shape it for yourself via other outlets. 

You could almost say that The Vow is more propaganda than it is a documentary if it weren't for Mark and Sarah's honest and rather unflattering depictions of themselves.  I admire them for putting their vulnerability on full display.

I think you will appreciate Seduced more now that you have suffered through The Vow.  It will provide the footnotes that will shed a lot of light on the things you saw in The Vow.  You will definitely get a better sense of what V-Week and JNESS are all about and it will chill your soul.

Edited by J.T.
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The Reagans on Showtime is a pretty chilling reminder that Ronnie was a heartless corporate shill owned by big business interests and trained to support them like a puppet. They even had him reading cue cards. It was purely and simply an anti-trust investigation into his business interests that made him a conservative when he was formerly a labor union leader. It also points how how integral Nancy was to the entire power structure, that without her he was nothing. She definitely wore the pants. I get the feeling it's gonna get a lot more grim next episode. Thankfully we have Ron Jr. participating too, because he is bound and determined to call his family out on their shit. 

EDIT: Oh, and they were broke too, until General Electric bought them a pre-fab house and their rich friends helped support them. 

Edited by Curt McGirt
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Ron Jr. used to present a kid's TV show over here in the 80s. It seemed really jarring that his Dad was President at the time, and here he was on CBBC.

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I hadn't seen him in years until he started showing up in a commercial for what I believe is called the American Atheist's Foundation or something? I posted it in the Commercial thread on here. At the end of the commercial he calls himself "lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in Hell." ? I get a kick out of it. 

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Here's a couple new ones that look great. I guess there's a big dump of docs going on right now; you should be able to find all of them streaming somewhere. 

Spoiler

69: The Saga of Danny Hernandez

Born To Be

Crazy, Not Insane

Leap of Faith: William Friedkin on The Exorcist

Collective

I'm sure that Rippa already got the Collective trailer above but might as well repost it since it looks like the most important of the lot. 

And watch out because the Born To Be one will get you. Whenever I see that I will be a mess. 

EDIT: Fixed

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