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SW:RISE OF SKYWALKER Discussion (All the Spoilers Here)


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21 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I hear this a lot about Abrams. Where does this narrative come from? 

Off the top of my head, the various mysteries that were never resolved in Lost (fucking polar bears, man), Abrams' insistence that Cumberbatch was not Khan when he was, Rey's parents and who Snoke "really is" in TFA, and many more.  I enjoyed Lost up to the point that I didn't, liked the Star Trek movies, and enjoyed TFA, so I'm not specifically anti-Abrams.  It's just that the dude seems to like mysteries like Russo likes swerves.

EDIT: thanks for clarifying the limits of his involvement with Lost, though my polar bear point stands since that was very early in the show!  ?

Edited by Technico Support
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34 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

EDIT: thanks for clarifying the limits of his involvement with Lost, though my polar bear point stands since that was very early in the show!  ?

Fair enough. Although I would counter by pointing out that the bear cages on Hydra Island were introduced to the show in the third season. I believe Mr Eko also had an encounter that season with a polar bear. So I lay the lack of resolution firmly at he feet of Lindelof and Cuse. ? 

Supplemental content (a DVD extra for the final season) tried to clarify some of the Dharma Initiative stuff, including the polar bears. But as I've made clear in the AEW thread, if you need supplemental content to follow along then you're playing a losing game. Broadly, I enjoyed Lost from start to finish. But there are definitely a lot of things they could have spelled out more clearly in the show. 

Now the Khan thing? Still pointless and stupid. The people who cared already figured he was Khan. The people he was actually smoke-screening weren't going to care one way or another. It defies explanation and is very easy to laugh at. 

Speaking of Rey's parents, I guess I'll go ahead and ask what dumb solution did JJ end up going with? Because no matter what, Johnson's answer of "they're nobody important, who cares" is the correct one. 

Edit: Googled it. Umm... Ok. 

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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9 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Blame Jeph Loeb for Lost.

Loeb was seemingly only involved with Lost for half a season, so I'm assuming this is humour based on dislike of his other contributions to comics and entertainment. 

Just now, BurningBeard said:

There’s no blame to be laid at Lost’s door, it’s a great show and anyone who took umbrage with it back in the day needs to go back and rewatch as it’s made for binging 

100% this. I'm watching it right now with someone who's never seen it before, and it's going over very well. If I had to wait weeks or months for new episodes and something like the hatch cliffhanger or Nikki and Paulo came up, I'd probably not be amused. In a binge? Freakin' great. 

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54 minutes ago, BurningBeard said:

There’s no blame to be laid at Lost’s door, it’s a great show and anyone who took umbrage with it back in the day needs to go back and rewatch as it’s made for binging 

I may be wrong, but didn't the writers' strike hit while Lost was on the air?  I feel like that may have affected it, but I may be wrong.

There was one season where it seemed like they didn't know how long it was going to go and they sort of spun their wheels for a while.  Maybe season 3 or 4?

I've always wished that Lost would've come out a few years later than it did.  Now, networks and audiences are more inclined to be in on a show for the long-haul, to be patient and see what happens.  It was a fairly novel concept when the show premiered.  I also think that nowadays you could convince a network to do the whole "Michael Keaton as the main character who dies in the first episode" stunt.

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2 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Anecdotally, TFA and TLJ were both opening night or weekend events for the group I went with. This time around, there's a lot of apathy and shrugs of "Maybe we'll see it after the holidays." Zero excitement. 

The apathy comes precisely from TLJ. That film generated precisely no excitement in what could come next. It lay the way for this complete damp squib of an ending. The originals evoked love; the prequels generally loathing. In 10, 15 years time the legacy of this trilogy will be complete apathy.

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22 minutes ago, Log said:

I may be wrong, but didn't the writers' strike hit while Lost was on the air?  I feel like that may have affected it, but I may be wrong.

There was one season where it seemed like they didn't know how long it was going to go and they sort of spun their wheels for a while.  Maybe season 3 or 4?

The writers' strike cut a few episodes from season four. But so many other scripted shows were disrupted by it (Breaking Bad, 30 Rock, Friday Night Lights) and didn't suffer a drop in quality, so no excuses. 

The spinning the wheels season was number three. When someone at ABC saw the episode about Jack's tattoos and rightful said "what the fuck," Lindelof and Cuse basically told them that this is what the show would be if they had to go on forever. From there, they were given three seasons to work towards wrapping everything off. That led to the twist at the end of the third season and they were off to the races with a show that suddenly had a shot in the arm.

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1 hour ago, Log said:

I may be wrong, but didn't the writers' strike hit while Lost was on the air?  I feel like that may have affected it, but I may be wrong.

There was one season where it seemed like they didn't know how long it was going to go and they sort of spun their wheels for a while.  Maybe season 3 or 4?

I've always wished that Lost would've come out a few years later than it did.  Now, networks and audiences are more inclined to be in on a show for the long-haul, to be patient and see what happens.  It was a fairly novel concept when the show premiered.  I also think that nowadays you could convince a network to do the whole "Michael Keaton as the main character who dies in the first episode" stunt.

To bring things full circle, we can absolutely blame the strike on At World's End. Rossio and Elliot were on set for the first two and were doing daily rewrites. 

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56 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

2007 writer's strike didn't start until after At World's End came out.

That is a weirdly specific thing for me to be wrong about. I wonder why I think that? Was there some other reason that they weren't on set?

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I understand a decent amount people still love the show as a whole even now, but people still defending the last season of LOST might get me to open up that old wound. That whole last season was useless imo (dont even care about the ending that both sides harp too much on).  One day I'll be over it. Haha

...as for Stars Wars, I might be a bit of a TLJ apologist. It obviously didnt do everything right (I hear yall; those casino scenes/plot were not my cup of tea either) but at least it took or at least attempted to go in weird directions and take some chances. It might be because I'm not a true Star Wars head but I wanted the trilogy to get weird and try out of canon things.

Everything I'm reading sounds like Rise of Skywalker went the safe route which what I expected and fine for Disney's bottom line, but I was still hoping against it. However, maybe the overall fanbase who disliked TLJ will dig this one, even if the overall critic sentiment is less than enthusiastic about it. I mean, the overall critic sentiment was positive about TLJ so...

Anyway, my low expectations might help my viewing experience. 

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22 minutes ago, _MJ_ said:

However, maybe the overall fanbase who disliked TLJ will dig this one, even if the overall critic sentiment is less than enthusiastic about it.

Doesn't sound like it. We may have something that can unify people and get shit on by both sides.

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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1 hour ago, Matt D said:

That is a weirdly specific thing for me to be wrong about. I wonder why I think that? Was there some other reason that they weren't on set?

Could've been any number of reasons. Scheduling, deadlines on other projects, commitments to other projects or money to have them there. But that type of information is hard to track down and google since the sequels are 12+ years old at this point.

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12 hours ago, A_K said:

The apathy comes precisely from TLJ. That film generated precisely no excitement in what could come next. It lay the way for this complete damp squib of an ending. The originals evoked love; the prequels generally loathing. In 10, 15 years time the legacy of this trilogy will be complete apathy.

I 100% agree with this. I said in the other topic they should have handed control of the trilogy over to one 'mastermind' (which I always thought was supposed to be Kathleen Kennedy but probably and arguably should have been George Lucas) or committee who should have come up with broad brush strokes of the major beats and then handed it off to individuals to craft them

  

12 hours ago, Log said:

There was one season where it seemed like they didn't know how long it was going to go and they sort of spun their wheels for a while.  Maybe season 3 or 4?

Season 3... which conversely is my favourite season because once they got past that hump it went into overdrive. The ending of S3 still gives me goosebumps

Edited by BurningBeard
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18 hours ago, A_K said:

The apathy comes precisely from TLJ. That film generated precisely no excitement in what could come next. It lay the way for this complete damp squib of an ending. 

I'd be fascinated to know what Johnson would have planned for a third film, and would be much more excited to see that.

How does Kylo lead? Can he? The force user/military tension has been evident sense Vader and Tarkin, but Kylo and Hux are younger, more petulant, and have never done anything but tear down, not build. The past is dead; now what?

Rey has her powers and her answer regarding her (non)identity. Now, she has to square that with the fact that people see her as a burgeoning legend, while being a functioning individual person. Also, probably has to fight Kylo or something. 

Poe has learned that leading isn't just being the loudest person in the front of the charge. But the Resistance is nearly wiped out, and must take risks and sacrifices to gain any ground. Does he know when to roll those dice, and can he live with the consequences?

Finn is no longer just not a stormtrooper, he's proudly a rebel. That is, he's defined now by embracing something, rather than rejecting. But he's also failed in his most recent gambit, and was confronted with ills you can't just explode. Does his enthusiasm survive the death of his idealism?

And the galaxy as a whole is bigger than these two squabbling factions. How does anyone build a just and peaceful society on the back of war? Can it be done? 

I don't pretend that TLJ was a perfect film, but I like it more now than I did at the time--and I liked it a lot, then. These, to me, are more interesting drivers of plot than MacGuffin chases and the biggest evil guy with the biggest fleet and manifest destinies. (This is probably unfairly cynical, considering I haven't seen TROS yet.) And I reject the idea that this desire is antithetical to Star Wars, which has always had plenty of internal conflicts and developments along with its explosions. 

But! I understand that a more fundamental problem is the lack of coherence. I would not have preferred a trilogy entirely in JJ's vision to one in Johnson's, but I might well have preferred it to one that's neither.

Edited by Beech27
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Expansive; operatic; epic. No desire to boil feats down to science nor cast a cynical, adult eye over fantasy-heroes. This one was superb and, of the 3, the truest to the ethos of the originals. That is to say, outlandish, colourful & immensely optimistic in its outlook.

I imagine that despite the critical reviews (which influenced my own extreme misgivings - see previous post) this one will be popular with the core fans who dismissed the second. How unfortunate the second was such an immense botch job.

Edited by A_K
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Just out. Not the most diehard Star Wars fan but I did enjoy TLJ, thought this was rushed, overly hammy at times (especially Oscar Isaac) and definitely have a lot of fan service.

When they slowed things down and key scenes settle it was enjoyable, and Driver was great to watch. 
 

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3 hours ago, peterien said:

Just out. Not the most diehard Star Wars fan but I did enjoy TLJ, thought this was rushed, overly hammy at times (especially Oscar Isaac) and definitely have a lot of fan service.

When they slowed things down and key scenes settle it was enjoyable, and Driver was great to watch. 
 

This isn't too far away from my opinion of the movie.  I think my biggest criticism is that it set up a few things, especially with Finn, that didn't pay off at all.  Overall though, I'd say I enjoyed it.  

I honestly don't know how I feel about this trilogy as a whole.  The Last Jedi is about as polarizing of a tipping point as possible, but I kind of want to see the alternate reality where we see where RIan Johnson is able to tell the beginning, middle, and end of this story.  I can't say it would be better, but I think it would be far ore interesting.  This trilogy was kind of a retelling of the original trilogy with a much less satisfying redemption arc.  It is impossible to be surprised by anything in this trilogy, because everything is just a reworking of the original trilogy.  I enjoyed it for what it was, but I would much rather watch a story full of new ideas and moments that you don't see coming.  

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The more people complain about TLJ, the more I hold it closer to my heart.

Anyway, got back from seeing it (Japan, time zones, etc). It was..a Star Wars movie. But with so much stuff in it that it was like watching an old Shaw Brothers film that's an adaptation of a wuxia novel where we are supposed to know certain things going in but at the same time some of the things that we did know get changed anyway.

It was simplistic fare with no depth to it. The initial shock about Rey's parentage for me led to amusement. It wasn't really anything most people theorized about and it will forever be one of those Star Wars things that will have to be explained in a novel. Speaking of, if you read the Aftermath books, the one carryover from the books does not have a happy ending. And it was done to make us lose hope and then cheapened by having the hope reignited not even a minute later.

I'm not done with Star Wars but I think I don't want to ever see anything J.J. Abrams does from here on in.

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