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DECEMBER 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.

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6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's assuming you come into that with major stakes. WWE basically forsakes kayfabe in favor of theme PPVs like Survivor Series with more farcical stakes that won't matter 48 to 72 hours after the PPV. If you're doing a major blood feud, yeah, it would be a major no-no but that is extremely rare anyway. But it's a chicken and egg scenario which I was why I kinda agree with your assessment. If this one thing doesn't matter, it's going to be pretty hard to get people to care about the other stuff that you're turning into a priority.

Therein lies the problem. It's essentially saying, "We're in need of a mini reset button. Can we make one?" If everything was fine, you wouldn't be doing it.

Kayfabe Rules in WWE only exists when Vince wants it to. After the Attitude era,  they stopped with the continuity of the feuds and being consistent in past rivalries. That's one of the things Russo was good at. 

If the Brand supremacy think existed in the 80s or 90s, They would've played up the Heels and faces feuds. Most likely it wouldn't happen at all.

Even the SS 95 wild card match had the heel manager out there reminding you who was heels but at the same time each team trying to win.

This whole "Wrestling fans have bad memories"  wasn't a thing until a generation ago and I think that philosophy has hurt WWE and any other Promotion in the modern era.

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The bigger problem with kayfabe not existing is...quite frankly, there has to be a little kayfabe around.

Kayfabe exists in every other TV show on the planet. They call it "the writing". That's the whole point of the show- the kayfabe is basically how you're writing it. You're dictating the rules of the universe and saying "this is how the show runs". And by an astonishing coincidence- if the rules of kayfabe are done, the fans actually PLAY ALONG WITH IT. Even the new indies have that- CHIKARA's been trying to redefine kayfabe for the modern era, and CHIKARA fans play along with those rules.

If I blame too much on the fans, the lack of kayfabe has caused it to happen more than anything- if you don't actually write a show and dictate the rules of it, dictate how the plans go- then how else are the fans going to react besides making the story of the show "this is the story of my favorite wrestler, a plucky young talent who's trying to navigate all the backstage politics of WWE to make their way to the top and win the title in the main event of Wrestlemania."

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1 minute ago, SorceressKnight said:

"this is the story of my favorite wrestler, a plucky young talent who's trying to navigate all the backstage politics of WWE to make their way to the top and win the title in the main event of Wrestlemania."

Aka Every career mode in a wwe video game. 

I think a lot of the issues come from disrupting the diegesis of the setting, whether that's breaking the fourth wall or something else that takes you out of that world. 

 

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15 hours ago, nate said:

Shane fucking McMahon, if this is a serious question.

I was going to say the same. There's a part of me that doesn't think Darby and Necro would match up well. However, I would lose my shit to see Shane grab a chair for the "sit down and punch each other" segment. Shane's punches would probably tighten up real fast after a few stiff potatoes to the face. God, playing this match out in my head is really a fun thought exercise for the night. 

If by some crazy chance Necro had made it to WWE, what type of role would people like to have seen him in? Maybe as a big challenge for Cena? Cena had faced some "unhinged" people before (RKO) but they could bill Necro as the ultimate psycho. A man who truly "Never Gives Up." I think that would be a lot of fun. 

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Just now, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

I was going to say the same. There's a part of me that doesn't think Darby and Necro would match up well. However, I would lose my shit to see Shane grab a chair for the "sit down and punch each other" segment. Shane's punches would probably tighten up real fast after a few stiff potatoes to the face. God, playing this match out in my head is really a fun thought exercise for the night. 

If by some crazy chance Necro had made it to WWE, what type of role would people like to have seen him in? Maybe as a big challenge for Cena? Cena had faced some "unhinged" people before (RKO) but they could bill Necro as the ultimate psycho. A man who truly "Never Gives Up." I think that would be a lot of fun. 

Necro would have been another Wyatt family member at best. 

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1 hour ago, Ziggy said:

Kayfabe Rules in WWE only exists when Vince wants it to. After the Attitude era,  they stopped with the continuity of the feuds and being consistent in past rivalries. That's one of the things Russo was good at. 

If the Brand supremacy think existed in the 80s or 90s, They would've played up the Heels and faces feuds. Most likely it wouldn't happen at all.

Even the SS 95 wild card match had the heel manager out there reminding you who was heels but at the same time each team trying to win.

This whole "Wrestling fans have bad memories"  wasn't a thing until a generation ago and I think that philosophy has hurt WWE and any other Promotion in the modern era.

WWE is basically this:

 

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21 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:

Can someone point me in the direction of a good Juice Robinson match? He always came off as Just A Guy in NXT and none of his post-WWE material has made me think any different.

HIs best NJPW was the Jay White match at the US show with Ross/Barnett commentating.  

Another great one would be his New Japan Cup match vs Tanahashi.

 

To be fair, it's nearly impossible to be bad vs Tana/White, but Juice more than held up his end of them.

 

 

As for Hager, he's the one guy I actively loathe in NJPW.  I'd even rather watch Marko or Jimmy Havoc.

Edited by alstein
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8 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

The bigger problem with kayfabe not existing is...quite frankly, there has to be a little kayfabe around.

Kayfabe exists in every other TV show on the planet. They call it "the writing". That's the whole point of the show- the kayfabe is basically how you're writing it. You're dictating the rules of the universe and saying "this is how the show runs". And by an astonishing coincidence- if the rules of kayfabe are done, the fans actually PLAY ALONG WITH IT. Even the new indies have that- CHIKARA's been trying to redefine kayfabe for the modern era, and CHIKARA fans play along with those rules.

If I blame too much on the fans, the lack of kayfabe has caused it to happen more than anything- if you don't actually write a show and dictate the rules of it, dictate how the plans go- then how else are the fans going to react besides making the story of the show "this is the story of my favorite wrestler, a plucky young talent who's trying to navigate all the backstage politics of WWE to make their way to the top and win the title in the main event of Wrestlemania."

That's a really good take and I agree with all of this.  It's silly to speak of kayfabe in the 21st century in those old terms, i.e., "pretend it's completely real 24/7 and the fans are dumb marks."  If we can define kayfabe as "the internal logic a promotion needs to establish and abide by," I think we'd all be a lot happier. 

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Well, in that case the Impact Throwback Throwdown makes perfect sense. It's already established that in this promotion there's a Lake of Reincarnation, that you can visit the Undead Realm, and that The Undead Bride can be murdered, then self-resurrect as a naive innocent with no memory. The idea that the whole promotion could also fall through a time paradox and land Thirty Six years ago is perfectly acceptable on those terms.

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8 hours ago, alstein said:

HIs best NJPW was the Jay White match at the US show with Ross/Barnett commentating.  

Another great one would be his New Japan Cup match vs Tanahashi.

Title match against Moxley is great too and it was 90% Juice.

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His 2017 G1 run was great, probably his coming out party.  His 2018 run wasn’t quite as good, but he was working a broken hand gimmick the whole time, which yielded some interesting stuff.

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And what he lacked in ring working with the broken hand stuff he made up in promos.

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You know when you meet (male) Wrestlers in real life and shake their hands, the wrestler almost always has these huge bear paws and thick sausage fingers (even when they're shorter, skinnier guys, they still have massive pitman's hands)? Jordan Devlin doesn't. His hands are tiny. Hard to believe he trains boxing.

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1 minute ago, AxB said:

You know when you meet (male) Wrestlers in real life and shake their hands, the wrestler almost always has these huge bear paws and thick sausage fingers (even when they're shorter, skinnier guys, they still have massive pitman's hands)? Jordan Devlin doesn't. His hands are tiny. Hard to believe he trains boxing.

I once shook hands with Keith Lee. His hands are deceptively exactly as fuckin huge as they look on TV.

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He then chopped the shit out of you for not basking long enough.

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I once shook Low-Ki's hand at a training seminar and he squoze the shit out of mine and everybody else's in the group, which I guess in his mind was some kind of old school respect ritual or whatever. He then had us all taking bumps on the wooden floors in the gym. I was banged up for weeks after that. Ahh, Low-Ki. Perhaps the most talented of the ROH originals, what could have been.

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1 hour ago, Rehabilitated Rick said:

I once shook Low-Ki's hand at a training seminar and he squoze the shit out of mine and everybody else's in the group, which I guess in his mind was some kind of old school respect ritual or whatever.

 

I won't speculate about his motives, but that's the opposite of the old-school working handshake.

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16 hours ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

I was going to say the same. There's a part of me that doesn't think Darby and Necro would match up well. However, I would lose my shit to see Shane grab a chair for the "sit down and punch each other" segment. Shane's punches would probably tighten up real fast after a few stiff potatoes to the face. God, playing this match out in my head is really a fun thought exercise for the night. 

If by some crazy chance Necro had made it to WWE, what type of role would people like to have seen him in? Maybe as a big challenge for Cena? Cena had faced some "unhinged" people before (RKO) but they could bill Necro as the ultimate psycho. A man who truly "Never Gives Up." I think that would be a lot of fun. 

He totally ends up being Uncle Dylan, manager of Jesse and Festus.

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Are there any wrestlers who have worked a match (rather than worked backstage) in all 5 of the recent big companies in the US (WWE/WCW/ECW/TNA/AEW) I would think the closest is Jericho but I'm pretty sure he never went near TNA. Did Billy Gunn ever work WCW and ECW (even the McMahon reboot)? Speaking of that reboot, did Dustin Rhodes work there? I think he might be the guy.

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1 minute ago, Swiftian said:

Are there any wrestlers who have worked a match (rather than worked backstage) in all 5 of the recent big companies in the US (WWE/WCW/ECW/TNA/AEW) I would think the closest is Jericho but I'm pretty sure he never went near TNA. Did Billy Gunn ever work WCW and ECW (even the McMahon reboot)? Speaking of that reboot, did Dustin Rhodes work there? I think he might be the guy.

Daniels is the answer.

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As is Dustin.

Dustin worked the WWECW reboot, Daniels worked for OG ECW near the end.

Edited by Raziel
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Technically, since they were involved physically in a match, the Rock n Roll Express should count.

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There are a few ECW talents that have been everywhere except AEW and are still working. Assuming a few eventually sneak into future battle royals for that nostalgia pop, that list can grow quite a bit. 

And if we want to count WWECW, Chavo Guerrero working a match in AEW would also get him in the mix. 

Edit: Almost counted Tommy Dreamer because of the Casino Battle Royal. Momentarily forgot that in spite of being around forever, he was never in WCW.

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy

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