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The Natural

DECEMBER 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.

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23 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

These motherfuckers just failed to deliver the advertised main event on a fucking house show LMAO


I could be wrong but I think the Network portion is only hour one of the show, and the live crowd gets more. But yeah.

I didn’t realize it until seeing it next to the word Starrcade but that whole bit was indeed Crockett as fuck. Like Tully is fucking around with Magnum’s girl, the restraining order shtick, territory babyface Dusty/Owens stands up for what’s right, then Magnum walks tall at the end. Fans tickets are now available at the box office for the Magnum/Tully grudge match next month.

Not making any comparisons regarding talent level nor execution of said angle.

Edited by For Great Justice

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34 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Hager ain't it. He doesn't have any star quality. His size and a decent ability for wrestling comedy are the two things he has, and voila! He's being used as the muscle and the second to Jericho's comedy routines in AEW. 

That probably makes him an indictment of how WWE doesn't know how to use guys to their abilities, but not one of how badly they missed on a star prospect like Cody, or hell, Juice Robinson as someone else mentioned. 

But that's also my point for badly missing on the talent.

The best way to put it would be that Cody is this decade's version of Steve Austin. Their gimmicks are nothing alike, but with both Cody and Austin the same refrain was there: They were good, and their original company KNEW they were good...but at the same time, if their original promotion knew what they had and gave them the push, they never would have made it to the heights they did. If WCW pushed Steve Austin to the top in 1994, then you'd get the decent-but-forgettable Stunning Steve and not the iconic Stone Cold- because Stone Cold could only become Stone Cold if he was shitcanned by WCW.

Likewise with Cody, he was good in WWE, very good...but he never would have become CODY unless he went off on his own and left the WWE. Even if WWE gave Cody a World Title push, he would have just been...well, Cody Rhodes. 

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1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

The weird thing is- you can make an argument that Cody Rhodes isn't even the biggest indictment of the modern WWE system on the AEW roster.

At least Cody was always notably good at working in that late 2000s-early 2010s WWE style, with that run where he was one of the few generic WWE trained guys who always seemed to find a spot on the Wrestlemania card when getting a Mania match meant you MATTERED that year. Even if he seemed bland and was the same as everyone else, there was a good chance that Cody was going to break out one of these days and become something special. 

Jake Hager, on the other hand? If you could pick a list of what you wanted the next top star in WWE to have in 2007, Hager would have ticked every single box on the list. The fact that he turned out to be forgettable and just another guy was probably a bigger indictment of the style than Cody not making it in the WWE was. 

Its crazy that his Father tried to convince him to leave around WN27 in Atlanta. That wouldve been right around the facemask deal, which was probably his best work the Rhode Scholar team was really cool. Until they started using Dusty and brought back Goldust that angle was led to the best stuff of the Decade between the Promos Dusty got to cut, Goddust vs Orton, Dustin and Cody vs the Shield. If Cody left in 2011 We would have missed out on that. He probably would have fit great in TNA at that but he wouldn't have developed into who he is now because he probably wouldve stayed in the TNA bubble and not gotten to work all these different indy talent an international promotions he got to work for years later

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57 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Other than Naylor, I don't remember anyone thinking CJ Parker had much talent at all.

He was a guy like Dillenger who other guys, like Owens, praised for his work, but never caught on.

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1 hour ago, Godfrey said:

Let’s wait for Hager to have an actual match in AEW before we indict the WWE system for his shortcomings. He was no prize in Lucha Underground either and that was with judicious editing.

Christ on a pogo-stick, I can't think of anyone who has been at it longer that has shown so little improvement as Hager. As long as he's used as Jericho's stooge and they keep him well away from the ring, fine. I still shudder to recall his title reign and push in the WWE, never has a guy with so little talent been pushed quite as hard (and I remember Tom Magee). Hager is the guy whose matches you put on when you want people to leave. I swear the guy can break up a party faster than playing the Mentors.

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19 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Christ on a pogo-stick, I can't think of anyone who has been at it longer that has shown so little improvement as Hager. As long as he's used as Jericho's stooge and they keep him well away from the ring, fine. I still shudder to recall his title reign and push in the WWE, never has a guy with so little talent been pushed quite as hard (and I remember Tom Magee). Hager is the guy whose matches you put on when you want people to leave. I swear the guy can break up a party faster than playing the Mentors.

His best work was when he came up to the ECW brand , he got to work Finlay, Christian, Matt Hardy, Tyson Kidd  and Evan Borne. Once he moved to Smackdown he didn't get any better. That was a dope roster and he had some good matches with all of them, it was all them obviously. 

And CJ Parker was having good matches in FCW teaming with Donny Marlow , Haku's son. I thought he'd be the singles version of Uso's ,His team with Hunico was dope too.

Edited by Ziggy

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11 hours ago, The Natural said:

As it's the last month of year, trying to sum up key moments from it:

The formation of All Elite Wrestling. 

Kenny Omega and the Young Bucks leave NJPW.

Women main event WrestleMania: Ronda Rousey vs. Becky Lynch vs. Charlotte Flair. Shame it wasn't Ronda Rousey vs. Becky Lynch headlining with Asuka vs. Charlotte Flair as the second women's title match. 

Daniel Bryan showing he's the GOAT.

Bray Wyatt resurrects his career as the host of a disturbed Rainbow like Firefly Funhouse and as a monster, The Fiend. 

WWE declining TV ratings. 

The amount of wrestlers wanting to leave WWE: TAFKA Dean Ambrose, Dustin Rhodes, The Revival, Luke Harper etc.

Seth Rollins popularity sinks and then some with his bratty behaviour particularly on twitter. 

Paul Heyman named executive director of RAW, Eric Bischoff executive director of Smackdown. Bischoff is fired not long after taking it up.

Smackdown moves to FOX.

The wrestling community rightly shits on the horrible finish to Seth Rollins vs. The Fiend inside Hell in a Cell. The fans in attendance were really pissed off.

Fuck Saudi Arabia drama in October.

Chris Jericho reinvents himself again.

Wednesday Night Wars: WWE NXT TV goes live and to two hours vs. AEW Dynamite.

The passings of Harley Race, Gene Okerlund and Ashley Massaro.

ROH hits its peak by performing in a sold-out Madison Square Garden, and then drops like a stone.

 

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13 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

His best work was when he came up to the ECW brand , he got to work Finlay, Christian, Matt Hardy, Tyson Kidd  and Evan Borne. Once he moved to Smackdown he didn't get any better. That was a dope roster and he had some good matches with all of them, it was all them obviously. 

Hell, I'm 62 with a bad back and no knees to speak of and I could be carried to a decent match with those guys. The fact that Hager has been at this so long and failed to get an iota better is pretty damning of his lack of professionalism or complete lack of talent, I'm not sure which it is, but he pretty much sucks.

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6 minutes ago, Ace said:

ROH hits its peak by performing in a sold-out Madison Square Garden, and then drops like a stone.

 

ROH? Are they still in the league?

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1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's also my point for badly missing on the talent.

The best way to put it would be that Cody is this decade's version of Steve Austin. Their gimmicks are nothing alike, but with both Cody and Austin the same refrain was there: They were good, and their original company KNEW they were good...but at the same time, if their original promotion knew what they had and gave them the push, they never would have made it to the heights they did. If WCW pushed Steve Austin to the top in 1994, then you'd get the decent-but-forgettable Stunning Steve and not the iconic Stone Cold- because Stone Cold could only become Stone Cold if he was shitcanned by WCW.

Likewise with Cody, he was good in WWE, very good...but he never would have become CODY unless he went off on his own and left the WWE. Even if WWE gave Cody a World Title push, he would have just been...well, Cody Rhodes. 

The key element is anger. Anger at how they'd been used, anger at how the business works. Anger at the faux-meritocracy. That very real anger and frustration is what created the energy to fuel their drive and growth. They found outlets that let them channel that anger back into their careers.

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Cody is very good, but Jon Moxley should have been a massive superstar face for WWE and they booked him into oblivion. If there was one guy I had to hold up as an example of being handicapped by WWE booking it's him.

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15 minutes ago, L_W_P said:

Cody is very good, but Jon Moxley should have been a massive superstar face for WWE and they booked him into oblivion. If there was one guy I had to hold up as an example of being handicapped by WWE booking it's him.

Moxley is weird. He should have been at least as big as Rollins and Reigns are, and came close to that role...but his AEW run and all the deathmatch stuff he does there would put that closer to "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" than an indictment of the WWE system. No matter how good the booking is, WWE's just not going to LET you run deathmatches to get your skill over (and really, WWE shouldn't be doing deathmatches.) 

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Well, Mick Foley got over - eventually - thanks to his taking of death bumps in WWE. One death bump in particular. And they've been trying really hard to follow that blueprint to make Shane McMahon (of all people) a legend for quite some time. Isn't really taking. Randy Orton did ONE thumbtack bump, and it got him over as a tough guy rather than the prettyboy image he had had before. Whereas Shane, even after the Angle match at KotR 01, and all the stunt bumps since, he's never really got over as being good at deathmatches.

Put it this way. Who would you rather see work Necro Butcher - Shane McMahon or Darby Allin?

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Moxley didn't need to be having death matches in WWE. They just needed to let him off the chain a little in terms of his predictability. Dean Ambrose could be doing all sorts of stuff that breaks from the WWE 'norm' without going full blown deathmatch in the ring.

Look at how over Reigns and Strowman were when they would just beat the piss out of each other and crash cars and try to murder each other in ambulances and garbage trucks.

Ambrose randomly attacking a heel in the middle of what looks like is going to be another 20 minute promo would get a pop.

Have him just walk into someone's backstage interview. He doesn't do anything. He's just there, getting in someone's head.

"Breaking news! WWE Network Exclusive: Dean Ambrose has attacked Samoa Joe on the set of WWE Backstage, just moments before the show was set to air"

it can be done. They are just too boring/stubborn to change.

 

Edited by L_W_P
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1 hour ago, Ace said:

ROH hits its peak because of New Japan by performing in a sold-out Madison Square Garden, and then drops like a stone.

 

fixed

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I can't remember the last time a guy went from channel changer in one promotion to must see with me in another quite like Cody Rhodes has.

Plenty have done the opposite, but his stuff in WWE was pretty much terrible throughout an entire decade. I find that baffling.

Enjoyed the Dashing Cody Rhodes stuff. The Rhodes bros tag team. Legacy was cool for maybe a few months. I wanted more from Stardust but it didn't really go anywhere. Now he's pretty much the only guy capable of convincing or selling me on a blood feud.

 

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4 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Jake Hager, on the other hand? If you could pick a list of what you wanted the next top star in WWE to have in 2007, Hager would have ticked every single box on the list. The fact that he turned out to be forgettable and just another guy was probably a bigger indictment of the style than Cody not making it in the WWE was. 

Oh for Pete's sake. Swagger was given multiple opportunities, but his own dumbassery torpedoed his WWE career. I doubt it was Vince who told him it would be a good idea to smoke a bowl and go for a drive the day after getting booked for a Wrestlemania main event.

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AEW has used Hager better than anyone else ever has by not letting him wrestle or talk. As long as they stick with that I think he'll be fine.

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2 hours ago, mattdangerously said:

Oh for Pete's sake. Swagger was given multiple opportunities, but his own dumbassery torpedoed his WWE career. I doubt it was Vince who told him it would be a good idea to smoke a bowl and go for a drive the day after getting booked for a Wrestlemania main event.

It's so interesting that "this person had all the tools to be a big star, but WWE developmental turned them into a shitty worker , even though the bookers pushed them like they were something special and made them the World Champ" is somehow not an indictment about developmental, and yet "this person had went through training and developed into into a pretty good worker and ended up becoming pretty talented as a performer, but the big mean bookers didn't let them be World Champion because they were so mean to them" is somehow indicting about developmental failing.

Edited by SorceressKnight
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13 hours ago, AxB said:

He was parodying Cornette apologists. On the subject of which, I do wonder what Cornette thought of the Impact Throwback Throwdown special. Because on the one hand, it was everything he thinks Wrestling should  be in 2019, but on the other hand, he was the one guy specifically mocked, and it was Sami Callihan doing the mocking. So maybe he hated it and thought it was insulting.

I'm not really sure if Cornette had trouble with womens main eventing.

Intergender stuff might be a different beast. 

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Can someone point me in the direction of a good Juice Robinson match? He always came off as Just A Guy in NXT and none of his post-WWE material has made me think any different.

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56 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

Can someone point me in the direction of a good Juice Robinson match? He always came off as Just A Guy in NXT and none of his post-WWE material has made me think any different.

Jon Moxley's first match in NJPW vs. Juice Robinson, 5th June 2019.

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8 hours ago, AxB said:

Put it this way. Who would you rather see work Necro Butcher - Shane McMahon or Darby Allin?

Shane fucking McMahon, if this is a serious question.

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