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DECEMBER 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.


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2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Wow. Didn't they do Harry "Davey Boy Jr" Smith the same way?

Where is the wow coming from? Being treated any other way on their way out would have made little sense seeing that they weren't leaving on good terms. Smith was just kind of jerked around by Gedo from what I recall being said earlier this year.

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3 hours ago, ChesterCopperpot said:

 

I remember the WWE United States Championship changing hands at MSG in 2017 when AJ Styles won it back from Kevin Owens. I felt WWE could've more with KO as The Face of America as his entrance graphics billed him and how he wore the colours of the USA flag:

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19 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Where is the wow coming from? Being treated any other way on their way out would have made little sense seeing that they weren't leaving on good terms. Smith was just kind of jerked around by Gedo from what I recall being said earlier this year.

They gave their notice. In comparison, Styles, Gallows, and Anderson told Gedo at WK itself.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ace said:

They gave their notice. In comparison, Styles, Gallows, and Anderson told Gedo at WK itself.

 

Didnt Shinsuke also tell Gedo? I remember how Kazuchika Okada and Hiroshi Tanahashi had their greatest match from their classic set of matches at Wrestle Kingdom 10 and then we were talking about the rumours that Nakamura and Styles, two of NJPW biggest talents were leaving.

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So NJPW builds their USA expansion around The Elite, then The Elite announces that nah, we are leaving and starting our own company that will operate in USA... Why would NJPW be happy with that and continue promoting them past WK?

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Exactly. Its not even completely a pettiness deal. Bucks and Omega expecting some kind of nice sendoff was arrogant bullshit on their parts. FFS they shit talked NJPW to Meltzer before they even left. Why the hell would they be given a nice sendoff?

Edited by Eivion
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They aren't indentured servants. They took a far better deal as any reasonable person would. They gave proper notice unlike Styles, Gallows, and Anderson by the sounds of it.

Those three helped their western expansion tremendously. Instead of gratitude or graciousness, there was pettiness in how they handled the Omega/Tanahashi build and the NY Dash show. They along with ROH then refused to work with AEW to their own detriment. ROH is a husk of its former self and NJPW basically just announced the death of their own US expansion by saying they're done with TV in that market. There is little chance they build on what they have in a meaningful way without tv. They can run all the rinky dink shows in America they want now tho. 

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2 hours ago, Oyaji said:

They took a far better deal as any reasonable person would.

And NJPW decided that it is not worth continue promoting them because they won't be available to them in 2019. Where is the problem exactly?

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2 hours ago, Oyaji said:

They aren't indentured servants. They took a far better deal as any reasonable person would. They gave proper notice unlike Styles, Gallows, and Anderson by the sounds of it.

Those three helped their western expansion tremendously. Instead of gratitude or graciousness, there was pettiness in how they handled the Omega/Tanahashi build and the NY Dash show. They along with ROH then refused to work with AEW to their own detriment. ROH is a husk of its former self and NJPW basically just announced the death of their own US expansion by saying they're done with TV in that market. There is little chance they build on what they have in a meaningful way without tv. They can run all the rinky dink shows in America they want now tho. 

That pettiness came from Omega and the Bucks, not NJPW.  NJPW were the ones that wanted to put Omega over Tanahashi then run Omega/Okada at MSG, Kenny turned it down then pouted on Twitter for weeks about NJPW not catering to his artist self whining because he didn't get his match with Ibushi.  The Bucks blew off the Tag League, then touted on social media how it wasn't worth their time and bitched about the money, then politicked their way into the Tag Title match at the Dome anyway with an angle that was so well recieved that you could hear a gnat fart in the building.

 

Those three hampered the western expansion with getting NJPW to book the entire thing around them, resulting in shows that were largely panned as being glorified RoH shows because RoH was already booking every show around The Elite.  They used NJPW's exposure and talent and RoH's talent and production to kick start their promotion they and their fans act as if NJPW and RoH owed them a Heroes sendoff when they should've gotten the Giving Watts notice treatment, and now people want to act like AEW would be doing NJPW and RoH a favor by daning to work with them.

 

The idea that NJPW and RoH are the petty ones is some high end revisionist history.

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The Elite leaving pretty much sank the possibility of a successful American expansion, and Omega and the Bucks used their NJPW-created stardom as a launching pad to start a rival organization that helped to kill the aforementioned expansion. And NJPW is supposed to promote and thank them? Ridiculous.

 

Also, the answer to "who gives a shit" here is always "a board full of devoted wrestling fans," so I'm not sure why that ever gets rolled out.

Edited by MORELOCK
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Let's be as objective as possible...

1. Did NJPW underpay the Bucks and Kenny? Maybe. 

2. Did the Bucks and Kenny use the stardom that NJPW gave them to jumpstart their own fed? Certainly.

3. Did the Elite jumping effectively kill NJPW in the States? Sadly, yes.

4. Would we be better off with NJPW having a strong US presence instead of AEW? I think so.

5. Who gives a shit? Well, as a wrestling fan for longer than you've been alive, Ryan, I do.

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Jesus...Omega and the Bucks or no Omega and the Bucks, the NJPW "expansion" to the US was doomed from the start. Even without those three, they still had ways of moving on without them. Even when they announced that they would expand to the US, you had people here who were skeptical of how successful that would be. They were still locked into a deal with AXS, which is a channel not many people even get. As for now, is it Omega and the Bucks fault that Anthem bought AXS just so they could air Impact on it?

NJPW has no idea how to book for an American audience and most stuff would still be run in conjunction with ROH anyway. Hell, AEW tried to still work out a deal to do stuff with NJPW anyway, which would be way better than doing something with the floating corpse that is ROH, and NJPW still snubbed them. 

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Also, NJPW still can't even get their shit together with NJPW World. People here watch their shit on Rokus, Apple TVs, smart TVs, and other devices and the main thing that barely works is using a Chromecast or Fire Stick to watch NJPW stuff on your tv or hooking up your computer or laptop directly to your tv. I always think of NJPW like Nintendo in that they're a brilliant company that does some real head scratching stuff, has the attention of a gnat when it comes to the US, stuff gets introduced without a full push behind it, but what they do at their core is excellent.

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10 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Jesus...Omega and the Bucks or no Omega and the Bucks, the NJPW "expansion" to the US was doomed from the start. Even without those three, they still had ways of moving on without them. Even when they announced that they would expand to the US, you had people here who were skeptical of how successful that would be. They were still locked into a deal with AXS, which is a channel not many people even get. As for now, is it Omega and the Bucks fault that Anthem bought AXS just so they could air Impact on it?

NJPW has no idea how to book for an American audience and most stuff would still be run in conjunction with ROH anyway. Hell, AEW tried to still work out a deal to do stuff with NJPW anyway, which would be way better than doing something with the floating corpse that is ROH, and NJPW still snubbed them. 

I hate to be the one to do this, but I guess I'm going to have to play the race card, or at least the nationality card... Having the Bucks and Omega was vital to NJPW getting over in the US, without them it's a bunch of Japanese guys than only the hardcores are familiar with and a guy from New Zealand that again, only the hardcores know. That's not a recipe for success, that's a disaster waiting to happen.

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21 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Let's be as objective as possible...

1. Did NJPW underpay the Bucks and Kenny? Maybe. 

2. Did the Bucks and Kenny use the stardom that NJPW gave them to jumpstart their own fed? Certainly.

3. Did the Elite jumping effectively kill NJPW in the States? Sadly, yes.

4. Would we be better off with NJPW having a strong US presence instead of AEW? I think so.

5. Who gives a shit? Well, as a wrestling fan for longer than you've been alive, Ryan, I do.

That's two. Who said it was rhetorical? I'm taking a survey.

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2 minutes ago, Ryan said:

That's two. Who said it was rhetorical? I'm taking a survey.

A survey! Kewl! Here are some of my favorite survey questions (which have been retired do to Caller ID):

1. Do you have Prince Albert in a can?

2. Is your refrigerator running?

3. Have you stopped beating your wife?

4. Is that a pencil in your pocket or are you happy I called?

5. And my favorite for calling meat markets: "Do you have leg of salmon?" Hilarity ensues.

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16 minutes ago, OSJ said:

I hate to be the one to do this, but I guess I'm going to have to play the race card, or at least the nationality card... Having the Bucks and Omega was vital to NJPW getting over in the US, without them it's a bunch of Japanese guys than only the hardcores are familiar with and a guy from New Zealand that again, only the hardcores know. That's not a recipe for success, that's a disaster waiting to happen.

Wrestling is already an incredibly niche product here in the US. NJPW would be even more niche than that. If you're already more niche than wrestling itself then the best thing you could do is stick to your guns, deliver what your US fans want to see, and not give a shit about trying to have a white dude at the top.

This all also ignores that US wrestling hinges on weekly TV, which NJPW doesn't do or book for. They're not going to double their roster just to have a core American roster and they weren't going to be flying their Japanese stars back and forth. That's why the US expansion was doomed from the start and always half baked. It was always contingent on working in tandem with ROH, which is just asking for trouble. Whenever something gets announced without any additional details chances are they haven't worked everything out or enough things out to be successful.

And none of this even touches on how contracts used to work with NJPW. Doing contracts year to year is asking to one day be bitten in the ass. In fact, they were already bitten in the ass by Styles, Gallows, Anderson, Nakamura, and Devitt. No one is beholden to any one company and the Bucks, Kenny, and Cody all saw a bigger opportunity running their own promotion than doing whatever it was that NJPW was trying to do, which apparently was going to be cards that didn't even get promoted that well. Plus, they still wanted to work with NJPW, it would have been better for NJPW to co-promote their shows with AEW than ROH, and NJPW still chose ROH.

The backbone of the US expansion was always going to be co-promoting with a US promotion. NJPW could have still had their relationship with Omega, the Bucks, and Cody, but because they didn't pledge fealty or whatever the fuck, NJPW stuck with ROH.

EDIT: One final note about pettiness, NJPW could have gone back to working with Impact, but they still chose not to because fucking YEARS AGO with an entirely different leadership and booking committee they chose to make NJPW stars look like shit. For Christs sake, you don't even need to co-promote with AEW. You could do something with Impact!! And yet, no, because of shit that happened when it was an entirely different company. Hell, working with Impact would probably get NJPW stuff promoted on AXS again.

Edited by Craig H
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25 minutes ago, OSJ said:

Let's be as objective as possible...

1. Did NJPW underpay the Bucks and Kenny? Maybe. 

2. Did the Bucks and Kenny use the stardom that NJPW gave them to jumpstart their own fed? Certainly.

3. Did the Elite jumping effectively kill NJPW in the States? Sadly, yes.

4. Would we be better off with NJPW having a strong US presence instead of AEW? I think so.

5. Who gives a shit? Well, as a wrestling fan for longer than you've been alive, Ryan, I do.

2. Kenny? Sure. The Bucks got over in PWG though.
 

3. US fans just don’t have the patience for every match on a show being 20-30 minutes so you get stuff like “Let’s go red shoes” when they get tired of duel chants. 
 

4. I don’t see this one at all. NJPW on TNT? Would be doing WWE backstage numbers(100-200k). 
 

New Japan needed to keep the Bullet Club strong after Kenny and the Bucks left but they just kind of let it blend in to the background. 

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