UFC 243: Whittaker vs. Adesanya (10/5/2019) - Melbourne, Victoria, Australia (Marvel Stadium)

[Jiji]

Would the 2019 equivalent of Ryo Chonan be able to land a flying scissors heel hook on Adesanya tho?

More importantly, who is the 2019 Chonan!?

[J.T.]

5 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

With the way Whittaker was swinging, the only person who has the reflexes to get out of the way is Israel Adesanya. You can't just train for that.

Adesanya's fight IQ is fucking unparalleled, but he also has tools like reach and length and what apparently appears to be Spider Sense.  He is the proverbial guy with all the gifts.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Jiji]

So to recap:

1) Adesanya enters the stage by synchronize dancing, including a one handed cartwheel.

2) Fights the riskiest of fights and wins in style

3) DX crotch chops Borrachinha in the aftermath. 

A decent Saturday night/Sunday morning. 

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Oyaji

[Elsalvajeloco]

13 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Stylebender is the shit. It's like watching the second coming of Anderson Silva.`

I'm the biggest Anderson Silva mark you'll find (the Leben KO got me back into UFC full time more than anything else), but I have to say he is better than Anderson. He is the first coming of Israel Adesanya. He's just simply more versatile. Plus, if Anderson had the TD defense that Israel has displayed, he would have never had a fight like the first Chael Sonnen fight. In addition, Adesanya is facing goddamn wrecking balls like Gastelum and Robert Whittaker early in his career. I mean I saw him in Glory based on a recommendation for @caposa on Twitter. I thought he could be Glory champion but I didn't see UFC world champion inside of twenty months. I thought he needed a couple years at least to get his feet wet. I mean you heard Anik at the end of the PPV say he turned down his first offer to go to the UFC. Saying he is ready to be in the UFC would be a fucking understatement of understatements right about now.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

So to recap:

1) Adesanya enters the stage by synchronize dancing, including a one handed cartwheel.

2) Fights the riskiest of fights and wins in style

3) DX crotch chops Borrachinha in the aftermath. 

A decent Saturday night/Sunday morning. 

 

Israel called him a Ricky Martin lookalike, but I would also say he's dressed like Disco Inferno circa 1997.

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I'm the biggest Anderson Silva mark you'll find (the Leben KO got me back into UFC full time more than anything else), but I have to say he is better than Anderson. He is the first coming of Israel Adesanya. He's just simply more versatile. Plus, if Anderson had the TD defense that Israel has displayed, he would have never had a fight like the first Chael Sonnen fight. In addition, Adesanya is facing goddamn wrecking balls like Gastelum and Robert Whittaker early in his career. I mean I saw him in Glory based on a recommendation for @caposa on Twitter. I thought he could be Glory champion but I didn't see UFC world champion inside of twenty months. I thought he needed a couple years at least to get his feet wet. I mean you heard Anik at the end of the PPV say he turned down his first offer to go to the UFC. Saying he is ready to be in the UFC would be a fucking understatement or understatements right about now.

Yeah, after I had typed that out I thought, you know, I think he's better actually.

[Jiji]

Jesus Christ, death by laughter from that and DC shouting out "craaahtch chap!"

[J.T.]

35 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I'm the biggest Anderson Silva mark you'll find (the Leben KO got me back into UFC full time more than anything else), but I have to say he is better than Anderson. He is the first coming of Israel Adesanya. He's just simply more versatile. Plus, if Anderson had the TD defense that Israel has displayed, he would have never had a fight like the first Chael Sonnen fight. In addition, Adesanya is facing goddamn wrecking balls like Gastelum and Robert Whittaker early in his career. I mean I saw him in Glory based on a recommendation for @caposa on Twitter. I thought he could be Glory champion but I didn't see UFC world champion inside of twenty months. I thought he needed a couple years at least to get his feet wet. I mean you heard Anik at the end of the PPV say he turned down his first offer to go to the UFC. Saying he is ready to be in the UFC would be a fucking understatement of understatements right about now.

I agree.  I've always liked the kid, but I really did think that he needed a few years to reel himself in.  I loved his flash and confidence but both of those things will get you knocked the fuck out if you're in the ring with a dude that isn't intimidated by your rep and can see any holes in your fighting style..

Israel has really matured over his last few fights and has really stepped up during his UFC run.  If he can maintain his composure and continues to fight smart, he'll be champ for a while.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[J.T.]

For those that are curious, both Ernest Chavez and Brandon Dorman have done video docs on Adesanya's fighting style.  You can really appreciate his Fight IQ when you watch the slo mo and can see how he transitions from setting subtle traps with stance feints and shoulder slaps to the balls out kicks that got him his nickname.

I also like the series that MMA Degree did on him.

The foundation of his striking is the jab feint so the folks out there that criticize him for not being disciplined and lacking fundamentals really are idiots.  The kid is technically fucking sound.

I don't think he's the second coming of Anderson Silva quite yet, but it fascinating to watch him evolve and start taking all of the singular techniques he's acquired over time and blend them together into his fight game.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

Jesus Christ, death by laughter from that and DC shouting out "craaahtch chap!"

I like how Cormier put over City Kickboxing when Adesanya was going backstage and celebrating with Kai Kara-France and Alex Volkanovski. Not only did he hype the Borrachinha fight, but also the Holloway vs. Volkanovski fight in December. More color commentators need to do that.

[The Natural]

Israel Adesanya as it stands is my Fighter of the Year. Beating Kelvin Gastelum to win the Interim UFC Middleweight Championship (that's my Fight of the Year) and now the undisputed champion having KO'd Robert Whittaker. Honourable mention to Henry Cejudo. 

[The Natural]

Amazing photo:

[TheVileOne]

Great fight. Israel Adesanya's meteoric rise has really been something. And he only debuted in the UFC last year.

[J.T.]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Somebody with more reach is gonna catch Adesanya when he's leaning straight back with his chin right there. Wasn't Whittaker tonight.

It's probably a trap, dog.  He WANTS you to lean in.  Either the lead leg head kick or the counter left is probably right there for when you try to come in.  I've rarely seen him fight off balance, even when it seems that he's in an awkward stance.

His style has always been crazy deceptive and he's only getting better when it comes to masking his strikes with feints and stance switches.

Dudes are going to have to get better at answering the question of what's real and what's fake when they get in the cage with him.

One thing I have noticed, though, is that he does tend to get a bit reckless when he smells blood so he's going to have to show a bit more patience when he goes in for the kill against a guy who he thinks is on the ropes but is actually just weathering the storm.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Jiji]

He's going to get clipped eventually though and not be able to get up. Gastelum was catching him with heavy punches later on in that fight and dropping him. All it takes is one mistake and a punch will power through that jaw and put him out, so he would have to be perfect in setting it up each time but we already know he can't do that. Whittaker and Gastelum both have connected when he's put himself in bad spots. I could see somebody the size and power of Costa catching him. It's a high risk set-up kind of like with karate fighters like Whittaker himself, Horiguchi and Machida. It can be the most beautiful thing for 99% of a fight but all it takes is that one time. We saw it with Silva.

[J.T.]

9 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

He's going to get clipped eventually though and not be able to get up.

I agree.  We know from the hurt that Alex Pereira put on his ass in Glory that his chin is just as susceptible as anyone else's, so he can't afford to fight with reckless abandon all of the time and needs to watch his ass when he transitions.

A patient fighter that can frustrate him will eventually find an opening and dust him off one and when he goes down, it will probably be for the count.

Adesanya is similar to Silva in the way that when everything is clicking, it is a joy to behold but shit gets ugly in a hurry when things go south.  Adesanya has to do his best not to repeat Silva's worst sin of allowing his arrogance to force him to abandon his tools.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Elsalvajeloco]

34 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I agree.  We know from the hurt that Alex Pereira put on his ass in Glory that his chin is just as susceptible as anyone else's, so he can't afford to fight with reckless abandon all of the time and needs to watch his ass when he transitions.

A patient fighter that can frustrate him will eventually find an opening and dust him off one and when he goes down, it will probably be for the count.

Adesanya is similar to Silva in the way that when everything is clicking, it is a joy to behold but shit gets ugly in a hurry when things go south.  Adesanya has to do his best not to repeat Silva's worst sin of allowing his arrogance to force him to abandon his tools.

Once Anderson started losing his reflexes, it was downhill from there. You can also argue PEDs playing a potential role in that. I mean both guys made it to the UFC in their late 20s/early 30s, but Anderson was doing muay thai and boxing, then got into MMA, and then went to PRIDE, Cage Rage, and Rumble on the Rock. He had a real fight career before UFC. That hard Chute Boxe style wasn't exactly the best for maintaining your body too. Leaving Chute Boxe and forming the first incarnation of Black House with the Nogueiras and getting more diverse trainers like Sergio Babu and Diogenes Assahida and then later on Josuel Distak, Daniel Woirin, and Giorges Martins in addition to Sylvio Behring helped him out tremendously. That gave him a new lease on his career.

I think the one thing that might hamper an Adesanya is his schedule is going to be much, much tougher than Anderson's. If he can make it through Borrachinha and Cannonier, he might legitimately be fighting Jon Jones soon thereafter. That's a much different animal.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[Jiji]

I want to see if he can survive Romero.

[J.T.]

9 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I want to see if he can survive Romero.

Bah.  I think he can get by Romero,  I want to see what he does with Paulo Costa and Jared Cannonier.

I think that someone else who is also hungry for a championship will give him some trouble.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I want to see if he can survive Romero.

I think the one guy who can make Romero look old is Adesanya. I mean it would likely be a championship fight, but the whole let me start fighting halfway through round 2 doesn't exactly work against a guy who is much faster than you. There was a presence in Romero vs. Machida, vs. Weidman, vs. Rockhold, and at points in the Whittaker fights where you felt like it's a matter of when and not if Romero KOs his opponents. Plus, he had the luxury of fighting a straightforward, aggressive fighter like Borrachinha which allowed to be competitive. He won't have any of those benefits against an Adesanya. He would badly need a hail mary IMO.

[Jiji]

But that's the thing. He's going to touch him a few times and he has the most power in that weight class. I want to see if he can survive the Romero bombs he'd eventually land. Adesanya is a slow starter himself.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Oyaji said:

But that's the thing. He's going to touch him a few times and he has the most power in that weight class. I want to see if he can survive the Romero bombs he'd eventually land. Adesanya is a slow starter himself.

I don't know if he would be landing bombs. Lets even say the first round is a dud 10-10. I still expect Adesanya to start landing right as round 2 starts and then Romero is going to be making faces and doing some taunting. It's basically going to be Adesanya vs. Silva part 2 except minus the hero worship so Israel might just head kick him and get him out of there.

[J.T.]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't know if he would be landing bombs. Lets even say the first round is a dud 10-10. I still expect Adesanya to start landing right as round 2 starts and then Romero is going to be making faces and doing some taunting. It's basically going to be Adesanya vs. Silva part 2 except minus the hero worship so Israel might just head kick him and get him out of there.

I concur.  I think that Paulo Costa is definitely the more dangerous fight for Adesanya.

Costa is enormous for a Middleweight and I think he's sturdy enough to weather a storm and get in his own withering shots.  I believe that Costa is very capable of putting Adesanya's lights out if those heavy hands start landing and I have to think that getting the Stylebender on the ground and smothering him with that bulk will be Priority #1.

Adesanya's jab feint game plan had better be on point and he'll need to make instantaneous excellent decisions when he engages.

It'll be the classic struggle of the matador vs. the bull.

That's the fight I'd make simply to take advantage of the fact that Israel's coming off of a big win and a career defining fight and that both of those guys are undefeated. 

The somebody's O has got to go drama is already built in, but how long to you make the Killa Gorilla wait for his turn?  Dude is not only riding a 2 fight win streak, he's also $100K richer thanks to two Performance of the Night bonuses.  UFC matchmakers love guys who get convincing wins.

Edited October 6, 2019 by J.T.

[Jiji]

I don't know who's more dangerous but I don't understand how you guys are writing off Romero so easily. His fight with Costa pretty much split media scorecards and was ridiculously close. Most thought he won the second Whittaker fight. He is highly flawed in how he approaches fights too but he's way more measured and cerebral than Costa is, who tries to overwhelm with physical abilities and will. I think the caginess matched with the legendary power presents as many challenges as Costa does and I haven't seen a big decline in Romero's handspeed either. He's the perfect guy to test Adesanya against down the line because he has one punch knockout power, is patient and can look bad for the majority of the fight but is never out of it. 

Adesanya is an incredibly gifted fighter but I don't know if he's as unbeatable as he's being made out to be. He's grown so much so quickly but there are still areas where he's walking a fine line. If it were all intelligent traps to catch guys on the counter you'd probably not see him constantly back straight up when in danger. You don't see a tonne of side step, check hooks. The combination of leaning straight back with chin up plus backing straight up is going to cost him eventually, it's just a matter of time imo. The way he is willing to take some of his opponent's shots and engage in grappling calmly really reminds me of Jones. It's like a demoralizing tactic to show he could beat you at your own game and that you can't hurt him. That too is dangerous and fascinating. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Oyaji

[Elsalvajeloco]

I don't know if Romero is patient as much as if he is facing guys who are wrestlers/BJJ who are converted to being more conventional boxers or kickboxers (like Weidman or Rockhold) who use that grappling base as a backup, he has the benefit of knowing he is an Olympic caliber wrestler. Those guys can't go in thinking, "well if I cannot overwhelm him on the feet, I can just grab an easy takedown and get the sub". No, they know they have to get close to him at some point. Look at the Rockhold fight. That was mostly Rockhold landing nothing of consequence. Weidman got off a few strikes against Romero but that's it. They were forced to take more risks to make sure there wasn't rounds up in the air. The Borrachinha fight was largely a very muscular guy in Borrachinha being unable to get Romero out of there before his cardio started to suffer. That was really the worst case scenario for Costa in that Romero wasn't very compromised from what happened earlier in the fight. You would expect to happen if Costa didn't finish him within the first six to seven minutes. That made it a real fight because the last thing Costa could do is empty the clip.

The big problem Romero faces with Adesanya is there are very limited options of how he could turn the tide to make it look like a Yoel Romero fight. I don't see Romero making Adesanya fade from round 3 on. He isn't really active enough. He is not going to force the issue like Whittaker did last night where he can even get off big right hands because while Yoel has an explosive first step, Whittaker has much better timing and less predictable with his movements. I think what Romero does best is he gets you into position so even if he is a little predictable, whoever gets to the spot first wins. He makes it 50/50. Adesanya is going to be less willing to play that game because he knows he can clown Romero for however long he needs to. The last time Romero had to make a similar adjustment was maybe the Kennedy fight, and the difference between Tim Kennedy and Israel Adesanya as strikers cannot even be measured.

If Romero wants to beat Adesanya, he is going to have fight a much more dedicated fight than he ever has where he doesn't allow Adesanya to think at all. I don't think having KO power is enough. Robert Whittaker ain't exactly Mr. Pillow Fist. Same with Kelvin Gastelum.