Random Boxing Thoughts/News v. 7

[Jiji]

That led me down the rabbit hole of awesome '80s welterweight/middleweight fights (easily my favourite period in boxing history) and has there been a wilder top level one round fight than Barkley/Benn? Benn runs out of the corner at the bell and starts raining power punches, knocks Barkley down, hits Barkley while he's trying to stay up on the ropes, then Barkley starts his comeback after surviving for about 30 seconds. Barkley has Benn on the ropes but then the latter starts hitting crisp uppercuts and hooks after catching his breath. There is the slightest of lulls followed by Benn scoring a knock down with a series of uppercuts and overhands AND THEN HE GIVES IRAN A STRAIGHT RIGHT WHILE BARKLEY IS ON THE CANVAS. HOLY FUCK. The referee chastises Benn but doesn't deduct a point and still gives Barkley the count. Barkley answers only to be put down again (technically his gloves hit the canvas, his body never does, but it's still a knockdown even though the referee takes about 5 seconds to call it off due to the three knockdown rule). Wild, wild, wild and so great. I need to just binge all of those great fights of that era between some of the greatest fighters of all time. Hearns is my guy but there's just a long list of talented fighters of all varieties in those light/welter/middleweights of the '80s to early '90s.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Since today is the anniversary, I'm watching the full broadcast of one of my favorite fights ever:

 

[Jiji]

Shoot, I remember so little from so much of my life and yet I still somehow remember the Tarver interview after the fight. Dude looks 21 but was going on 35, lol. Going to have to watch that in addition to the Toryumon cage match. Thanks for that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Your COVID-19 upcoming boxing schedule via BoxRec:

Only names I'm familiar with are Okada and Welliver. 

[Jiji]

Okie, so watched the Juanma/Pacquiao fight and it's a good thing social media didn't amount to much in 2004 beyond forums. 10-7 round 1 when Pacquiao scored three knockdowns, how? What a disaster, even though looking at the totality of the fight, I thought Marquez fought smarter and better for most of it. Tremendous fortitude to slow the fight down by punishing Manny every time he came forward with the lunging left hand. He'd often dip out of the way and throw a 1-2 or straight right, or slip it, sometimes deflect it and land power shots in return including a some really nice short, stiff counter jabs. Manny slowed down as a result of the counters and probably dipping in energy levels before catching his second wind in rounds 7 & 8. Was fascinating to hear the different takes on commentary with Steward obviously favouring Marquez's varied, technical approach to Merchant going for the speed and power of Pacquiao. Classic fight. Maybe not as much blood and guts after the first round as I remember it, but just a pleasure to watch. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Okie, so watched the Juanma/Pacquiao fight and it's a good thing social media didn't amount to much in 2004 beyond forums. 10-7 round 1 when Pacquiao scored three knockdowns, how? What a disaster, even though looking at the totality of the fight, I thought Marquez fought smarter and better for most of it. Tremendous fortitude to slow the fight down by punishing Manny every time he came forward with the lunging left hand. He'd often dip out of the way and throw a 1-2 or straight right, or slip it, sometimes deflect it and land power shots in return including a some really nice short, stiff counter jabs. Manny slowed down as a result of the counters and probably dipping in energy levels before catching his second wind in rounds 7 & 8. Was fascinating to hear the different takes on commentary with Steward obviously favouring Marquez's varied, technical approach to Merchant going for the speed and power of Pacquiao. Classic fight. Maybe not as much blood and guts after the first round as I remember it, but just a pleasure to watch. 

I knew Marquez was the most unheralded of all the fighters from 122 to 130 at that time, but as a whole, it's crazy to think about what was going at the time (early to mid 2000s) and how certain cirumstances have changed how we look at certain boxers. I mean a guy like Winky Wright went from a perennial road warrior having occasional appearances on TV to being seen as P4P perhaps the best fighter in the world for a little while. Marquez basically went from a guy who would show up every now and again on HBO and Showtime to every fight being on TV. I know US amateur boxing was kinda at a tipping point, but guys like Jermain Taylor, Andre Ward, the Dirrell brothers, and Deontay Wilder didn't sign deals with major promoters. I mean during the Cotto/Lovemore Ndou fight, they're talking about Ricardo Williams. Now? Anybody with some type of name recognition or value is with a major outlet in some shape or form. I mean Top Rank and Golden Boy are signing 16 and 17 year olds and having them fight in jurisdictions that allow minors to have pro boxing bouts. No stone is being left unturned. Compare that to before five, ten, or fifteen years ago when some guy could make several consecutive defenses of a title in any division above bantamweight and never have a fight of significance on North American television. Of course you still have a few holdouts, but those guys hold some WBA title that's far from legit or lack the means to build legitimacy.

My bigger point is how those storylines use to permeate boxing, and you could even argue the world of boxing was saturated then w/ too much content (especially on PPV). There were plenty of fighters who were hidden gems. In this day and age, it's virtually impossible for that to happen. Even with the Zanfer guys in Mexico and some of the Teiken Promotion fighters in Japan, those dudes show up fairly often. I mean before Naoya Inoue signed with Top Rank and did the World Boxing Super Series, he showed up and fought one of Stipe Miocic's buddies from Ohio on HBO in his first appearance in the U.S. He was being hyped up THEN. It's not like Pacquiao when he showed up and beat the holy hell out of Lehlo Ledwaba on the De La Hoya/Castillejo undercard where Merchant and Lampley mispronounced his surname at least twenty five different ways. He had to make three or four more appearances before it started to register.

It's crazy how boxing, the need for more content, and its search for stars has changed all of that.

Edited May 9, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Jiji]

Do you think a mega corporation like Disney/ESPN makes a push to unify at least the major American and world renowned boxing powers under one umbrella over the next 10-20 years? What you are talking about seems to be largely around perception, when you have guys like Marquez going under the radar for years as one of the best technical fighters on the planet. Now everybody and their grandma is being promoted to death and there are not that many stars around despite that (over)saturation. Do you think bringing some order and consistency into how the sport is run (titles, contracts, rankings) would help boxing as a whole bounce back in mainstream sports? Or has that ship sailed and what we have now with names like Fury, Wilder, Joshua fading in and out of the headlines once or twice a year and the rest of the time it's just the hardcores watching is what boxing will be for the foreseeable future? It would be a fucking massive gamble, I know, with how much these television deals are going for, but it may be an interesting risk if it happened bit by bit. All of the different governing bodies/cartels would have to fall in line if one group stockpiled all of the talent and could just create their own titles, no?

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Oyaji said:

Do you think a mega corporation like Disney/ESPN makes a push to unify at least the major American and world renowned boxing powers under one umbrella over the next 10-20 years? What you are talking about seems to be largely around perception, when you have guys like Marquez going under the radar for years as one of the best technical fighters on the planet. Now everybody and their grandma is being promoted to death and there are not that many stars around despite that (over)saturation. Do you think bringing some order and consistency into how the sport is run (titles, contracts, rankings) would help boxing as a whole bounce back in mainstream sports? Or has that ship sailed and what we have now with names like Fury, Wilder, Joshua fading in and out of the headlines once or twice a year and the rest of the time it's just the hardcores watching is what boxing will be for the foreseeable future? It would be a fucking massive gamble, I know, with how much these television deals are going for, but it may be an interesting risk if it happened bit by bit. All of the different governing bodies/cartels would have to fall in line if one group stockpiled all of the talent and could just create their own titles, no?

I was going bring this up earlier in the UFC 249 thread as an aside to someone bringing up Dana ruining or bringing down two companies (I guess AEW and UFC). Dana and Bob Arum renewed their beef over the last week or so. On the Unfiltered show with Norton and Serra, I believe Dana said something about Bob Arum/Top Rank being bankrupt and that's why he isn't running fights right now as opposed to him just doing the right thing. Now Dana could be or likely is wrong as hell and probably doesn't know shit about Top Rank finances. However, I saw a story the other day where Arum is talking about fighters needing to accept lower guarantees and take PPV upsides instead. Before that, maybe the same day or a day earlier, he's talking about how hard it would be to make a Crawford vs. Shawn Porter fight just because it would be hard to get the money to make the fight even if both sides wanted the fight. Those two things stick out to me as this pandemic is showing how some of these entities in boxing not being able to survive something like this. Top Rank is as entrenched as you can get in boxing, and it's possible they might not survive this. Keep in mind, Bob has recently talked about selling Top Rank. Obviously, Arum goes how the wind shifts (for example, hating UFC and MMA to loving it to back to hating Dana). He went from suing PBC to being fine with Al Haymon when the lawsuit didn't work and saw he could make matchups with him. I say that to say, it's quite possible Arum knows something like the PBC model where one outfit has fighters on every major channel is the future. Eddie Hearn briefly had deal with HBO and DAZN at the same time. Yeah, HBO was making their exit from the game and that was obvious from the declining quality of the matchups (utter trash like Luis Ortiz vs. Malik Scott and Whyte vs. Lucas Browne being single fight broadcasts were the telltale signs). However, Hearn knew it's not possible to make Matchroom viable in the United States without having hands in everything. Arum has never really been able to do that. One moment, he loves HBO. Next moment, he takes all his guys off HBO and puts them on Showtime. Then, he tells Showtime to fuck off and how his fighters will never be on there again. 

For a long time, people wondered if and when UFC sold to a giant corporate entity whether or not Dana would be removed immediately. Now we know. As much as stuff changed, since Dana has made himself sort of the face of the UFC and they see him as THE promoter, he can get 300 million from the sale and still keep his job. With boxing being the old fogey club, I can see with how things have played out over the last several years Disney or Fox or Viacom or whomever thinking, "this would be better WITHOUT the people." Eddie Hearn could survive it because he's relatively young, kinda Dana-ish by having his face always out there, and sorta forward thinking. Everyone else? Oh boy, I dunno. I mean even Lou DiBella had to change his thinking and is working with a bunch of other promoters and working with UFC to broadcast his fights. For boxing to matter, shit has gotta change. There will always be big fights here and there. However, boxing as we use to know it won't exist and it's gonna be sooner rather than later.

[Jiji]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, HBO was making their exit from the game and that was obvious from the declining quality of the matchups (utter trash like Luis Ortiz vs. Malik Scott and Whyte vs. Lucas Browne being single fight broadcasts were the telltale signs)

Watching that May 8, 2004 broadcast and seeing the NEXT WEEK HBO had the Tarver/Jones rematch on PPV is nuts. From that to what you spoke to in the matter of a decade and some change. So much can change, and you're right, especially with the pandemic fucking up most everybody's bank accounts. 

And, while we obviously see the huge, massive issues when a monopoly is in place, I almost kind of want one in boxing at this stage for the reasons you just put forth. Of all the things Disney/Endeavor/Whoeverfuck can devour, I hope they sort out the world of boxing soonish. Now seems like a decent time to at least make some headway when promoters are saying shit like what Arum said about the Crawford/Porter fight issues. Maybe he's being stingy because there won't be a gate or maybe it's out of necessity. Then again, as you've detailed elsewhere on the board, Disney themselves are bleeding money because of the closing down of their theme parks, movies, and cruise lines.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Something out of a goddamn movie.

[Jiji]

Since you posted the Pacquiao/Marquez fight the other week I've been casually watching classics on YT (so great btw!) during workouts. Holy shit that tenth round in Holyfield/Bowe was CRAZY. Evander's ability to recover was insane. He was out on his feet following that uppercut. Too bad we didn't get Bowe/Tyson or Bowe/Lewis.

Also watched Pryor/Arguello I, as I didn't have a tonne of memories since watching it when I went hardcore into boxing in the early to mid '00s. With the way people hype up Arguello as this classical boxer and Pryor as a brawler, the fight took a completely opposite approach with Pryor dancing on the outside and hitting combinations while Arguello was going for the power punches one at a time, countering and going to the body with little to no footwork. Great fight but I don't think I'd consider it at the tippy top with the above fight you just posted or Hagler/Hearns. Watched the Legendary Nights episode on Trinidad/Oscar and what a gong show that sounded like.

[Jiji]

Watching that back, I take it Arum was Castillo's promoter? Dude looked like he was at a funeral during The Comeback.

edit: that is Arum in the front row, isn't it? Or was it another old rich white dude?

Edited May 16, 2020 by Oyaji

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

Watching that back, I take it Arum was Castillo's promoter? Dude looked like he was at a funeral during The Comeback.

edit: that is Arum in the front row, isn't it? Or was it another old rich white dude?

Correctamundo. The banners up top next to the ring lights are Top Rank and Gary Shaw Productions. It's Bob Arum and right next to him is Gary Shaw, the promoter for Corrales at the time.

[Jiji]

Revisiting Morales/Barrera and I had to triple take at Merchant saying Barrera had been fighting professionally for 11 years and he was 26 in 2000. What the fuck? Morales started at 16. What's the legal age for pro boxing in Mexico? Third trimester? 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Revisiting Morales/Barrera and I had to triple take at Merchant saying Barrera had been fighting professionally for 11 years and he was 26 in 2000. What the fuck? Morales started at 16. What's the legal age for pro boxing in Mexico? Third trimester? 

I talked about this before about a year or two ago. Canelo started at 15. Erik Morales started at 16. JCC Jr. started at 17. 

With Morales and Barrera, they started so young and were champions by like 19 or 20. However, by 29 or 30, that is when they started to go downhill in terms of their performance. It also doesn't help that both guys were fairly active fighting several times a year save for injury and promotional disputes.

FWIW I believe the age limit in Mexico is 14 or 15 to box professionally. It's a fairly common practice today that many young boxers who are somewhat decorated amateurs from the United States under the age of 18 go to Tijuana where rules are fairly lax to have pro fights. Of course, you also have random journeymen (who are grown men) from the states who pad their record by going to TJ and fighting people who probably should never be in a boxing ring. That's kinda the downside. Despite amateur boxing not being fairly popular in Mexico, the workaround is matching these 15-17 year olds throughout the country at the very least against grown men or tough kids their age. Thus, you have the guys who made their pro debuts early being skilled enough to be contenders. For example, Orlando Salido made his pro debut at 17 and got knocked out. He would go 8-6-1 in his first 15 fights (including another loss to the guy who beat him in his pro debut) and go on to have a good career.

So the belief is that because their fighters are forged in fire, they fight with an unmatched ferocity. I think that's why Mexican-American fighters want to fight with the spirit they believe typifies fighters born and reared in Mexico. I mean because of Chavez Sr., it was always around in one way or another. However, after this new golden age of featherweights and those hovering around there from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s, everyone wanted to be that. After the UFC card on Saturday, I watched the Juan Manuel Marquez (fresh from his lineal lightweight title win over Joel Casamayor) versus Juan Diaz (fresh off a vindicating victory over Michael Katsidis after the Nate Campbell debacle) fight from 2009 in Diaz's hometown of Houston at the Toyota Center. It may have been Diaz's hometown, but Marquez was the clear fan favorite. Thus, you have Juan Diaz trying his best to prove himself a legitimate Mexican fighter. That ultimately proves foolhardy against Marquez, who eventually wears Diaz down by round 7 in a war of attrition and scores the KO with his nasty, signature uppercut in round 9. You have this dichotomy going back to probably Oscar De La Hoya after his gold medal win in 1992 where these seasoned amateur fighters want to show they can apply their trade as true Mexican fighters even though that's far from they've been asked to do as amateurs. Hence why the De La Hoya/Chavez fights (especially the first one on the eve of the 1996 Summer Olympics) were so big despite Chavez being years removed from his prime against an absolutely horrendous matchup for him. A large part of why Mexican fighters are so revered is their upbringing as fighters even though you still have different socioeconomic factors that separate other Mexicans fighters. For example, you have Marco Antonio Barrera being from the more affluent Mexico City whereas Erik Morales was raised in an apartment above a boxing gym in Tijuana so both guys thought they were better or tougher than the other. You also have some of these cities (like Ciudad Obregon, San Luis Potosi, Culiacan, etc.) that weren't producing many or any world champions for that matter and then one guys wins a world title and the flood gates open. I mean Sinaloa (the state in which Culiacan is located) was more known for marijuana and cartel activity before Chavez Sr. moved there to train. It's just a whole different world to wrap your head around.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Jiji]

Yeah, I couldn't believe it when Merchant said that Morales would be the first star fighter out of Tijuana. I get that Mexico is diverse and all but that just struck me as amazing that up until 2000 that city didn't produce a single boxing superstar. 

Also strange about the Morales/Barrera fight: Morales' corner is telling him to outbox when he is best remembered for constant bloody wars and the classic Mexican spirit you spoke of. And his nose was refreshingly not quite so angular either. 

Interesting note about Salido. I had no idea about that. And the point on Mexican-American fighters wanting to prove themselves in a style they haven't been trained and brought up in makes a lot of sense. That's like a sport version of the pressure biracial young people often feel where they belong to two cultures yet don't many times say they feel that they really belong to either. It's almost as if those Mexi-American boxers need to carve their own path and fuse the two styles rather than swing from American amateur technique to Mexican fire.

[Jiji]

Barrera/Morales I has to be one of the closest great/action fights I've seen. Barrera's shots landed harder, or at least he had the better chin (both were phenomenal though), but Morales would often dictate 2/3rds a round and throw way more volume of power punches. How the fuck do you score this?! Barrera's skull was made of concrete, as Terrible lit him up with hooks, uppercuts, and right straights. He'd sometimes get pushed back or stumble half a step but rarely did he buckle. Morales, with his activity, got lulled into a false sense of security because of Barrera's inactivity. 

They would often take turns exchanging earlier in the fight. Later on, Barrera started picking his spots more and more even though it was he who was handing out the body shots.

Now this is one of the all time great fights. I used to watch HBO and PPVs with my grandfather whenever I would stay at with my grandparents during school breaks. I also got pretty heavy into it around the time I graduated in part due to Hajime no Ippo (which I revisited at the start of the lockdown - it's the fucking greatest) and also because I had disposable income and found out about boxing DVD sites (and other forms of acquiring boxing...). But my memory of so many of these fights is so foggy that I feel the need to go back and revisit the best of the best. 

I get that Lederman was favouring the heavier shots from Barrera but holy shit how did he give the 10th to Marco Antonio when he threw like 20 punches, one of which staggered Morales. Morales threw EVERYTHING at Barrera that round and at least one of the chopping rights stumbled Barrera. Even Lampley, who is generally not scoring rounds, said he disagreed. 

edit: going back to how stacked boxing telecasts were back in the day, they had Oscar, Gatti, Hamed, and Floyd Mayweather in three weeks. Oh and it started with one of the best fights of all time in Morales/Barrera I.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Oyaji

[AxB]

Don't Muay Thai fighters (in Thailand) turn pro before age ten? And then fight so frequently that they have records like 87-32-15 by the time they're 27?

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

Don't Muay Thai fighters (in Thailand) turn pro before age ten? And then fight so frequently that they have records like 87-32-15 by the time they're 27?

In Thailand, there is no age limit which has been a subject of obvious scrutiny for years (especially recently). In essence, since no real concrete amateur system exists, you're a professional from the very beginning.

[Jiji]

Vazquez/Marquez I... Dear lord, so many power punches landing clean in such a short amount of time. I remember catching this either live or on a replay and just being blown away and unlike the other fights I've gone back and watched, this one I have clearer memories of. It's a God damn shame it ended that way, so I'm watching the rest of the quadrilogy. Second fight starts off just a bit more tentatively with a bit more defense on display but they are rocking each other by the third round. Yeah, round 3 of the second fight is one of the most action packed rounds I've ever seen right up there with round 10 of Corrales/Castillo. No knockdowns somehow.

After this I'll go back and watch the other Barrera/Morales fights. Peeped Barrera/Hamed, which was a change of pace yet still enjoyable for the most part. Kelley/Hamed was just two dudes throwing as hard as they could from strange angles. Love it.

edit: Jose Guadalupe Garcia or Wayne Newton in Licence to Kill? Which is which?! Can't find a better pic of Guadalupe but damn, I can't stop laughing.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Oyaji

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

 

[Jiji]

I'm guessing the Inoue fight doesn't get rescheduled until borders open up, right?

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

I'm guessing the Inoue fight doesn't get rescheduled until borders open up, right?

You would think that. It's hard to get a read on what plans they have any notable fights right now. All the tentative fights so far sound like stay busy fights.