Jiji Posted May 22, 2020 Share Posted May 22, 2020 Marquez/Vazquez III: LOVING Danny Aiello taking up half of Stallone's seat. Stallone wishing Sal would do the right thing. Rarely have two fighters been so perfectly matched for each other like these two were. Marquez more comfortable on the outside but really does a tremendous amount of damage with the left hook on the inside, which is where Vazquez thrives and as the series progressed he looked to land more and more of those left hooks of his own and mixed it up better on the way inside. 1-2 then get inside really started to work for him in the third fight. And while Vazquez worked his way in better with strong straight punches from the outside, Marquez was hurting Vazquez with power shots on the inside, so the script was reversed a bit here. So many big and small momentum swings too. And the final round. My God that final round. What drama. I think this is my favourite series of fights I've seen. Simple joy watching it. IV is short but sweet. A fitting end that they should finish level, with Vazquez having nothing left to give beyond those IV draining, magical fights. All of this is the best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 (edited) That is such a great reaction from Steward. Edited May 29, 2020 by Oyaji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 (edited) Barrera/Morales III: Much like II was a little weird with Barrera taking half of the fight off and while I wouldn't go so far as to say Morales took half of the fight off, he wasn't able to find a rhythm and looked out of it for about 5 rounds. He won the second clearly and the third wasn't exactly eventful so I think if you score that third round for El Terrible it's a draw. Barrera's jab was quicker and more accurate which was a first in the series. And due to that, Morales was so tentative from jab range because he felt like if he wasn't countering he was going to lose the jab contest. So he'd put himself in dangerous areas flinching and waiting to take a punch to throw one. Not a formula for success. Overall, II had its moments but wasn't a legendary fight by any stretch. III was a great fight with some pockets of insanity but still not near the level of the first, classic fight. Next up, I'll probably stick with Morales and watch his fights with Pacquiao and other fights from around this era. Edited May 24, 2020 by Oyaji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 24, 2020 Author Share Posted May 24, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Oyaji said: That is such a great reaction from Steward. I watched Foreman/Lyle yesterday, and boy, that fight will hold up forever. I also watched the Moorer/Foreman fight, and Jim Lampley screaming "IT HAPPENED! IT HAPPENED!" will never stop being awesome. Sidenote: At the end of said broadcast, Gil Clancy (who took over Foreman's training after the Rumble in the Jungle and was his trainer for the Lyle fight) so desperately wanted George to retire after the dramatic, improbable KO over Moorer. You can see it in his face and his voice when he explicitly says he thinks George should retire. He's dead fucking serious. Lampley is over here being the good employee and talking about all the money fights (which ultimately never happened) now on the table for George, and Gil is talking about how Foreman should end it here. George took a lot of hellish punishment. If you watch the first eight or nine rounds, you will see Moorer constantly hitting Foreman with big shot after big shot. I am not saying Atlas was 100% right between rounds telling Moorer that he was allowing Foreman to go slow and Moorer pushing the pace earlier in the fight would have possibly stopped the KO from happening, but I could've seen the referee doing a mercy stoppage after round 7 or 8 if Moorer forced the issue more. Yeah, Moorer was a little heavier in the fight and that probably slowed him down enough for Foreman to tag him late in the fight. However, Foreman was in horrendous shape. Moorer, a southpaw, was circling into George's power in the first few rounds and George couldn't land shit. Moorer is just way too skilled for him. So what happened in round 10? Moorer just stands still, and Foreman tags him with right hand while Moorer has his guard high. Moorer is just stunned enough to allow Foreman to again split his guard and bring a right hand a little lower on his face to absolutely melt him. Moorer gave Foreman TWO opportunities to land the perfect shot on him. That's the most Michael Moorer thing that could happen to Michael Moorer. Going into that fight, they show footage of Moorer getting dropped in other fights (specifically the Bert Cooper fight). He can fight an otherwise perfect fight and then allow enough sunlight in to give you a path to win the fight. I say all this to not only reference Lampley bringing up the Foreman/Lyle fight, but to juxtapose Moorer's career w/ the above clip in saying that's Andre Berto's career in a nutshell. Edited May 24, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted May 24, 2020 Share Posted May 24, 2020 Michael Johnson is MMA's Michael Moorer/Andre Berto then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 25, 2020 Author Share Posted May 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Oyaji said: Michael Johnson is MMA's Michael Moorer/Andre Berto then? To be fair, Moorer managed to be champ and Berto managed to get the WBC title Mayweather left when he retired after the Hatton fight. Although it be can argued Berto probably would have never been champion had Floyd not gone into retirement #2, Berto could have gotten the IBF title Margarito vacated to fight Miguel Cotto the first time. He eventually got it (after he lost the WBC title to Ortiz) against the unheralded Jan Zaveck, who spent nearly two years tucked away in Germany as champion. Andre Berto was still good enough to cherry pick the weakest champions in a division. I dunno if Michael Johnson was ever that good. Berto was a titlist in a (then) top heavy welterweight division, but Michael was a decent fighter who became a good fighter. We knew he had weaknesses before they started to become more evident. At his best, I dunno if he was one of the absolutely premier guys in a division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted May 29, 2020 Share Posted May 29, 2020 I wish reddit video posts didn't auto play. Not even spoiler tags stop it from happening. So Pac/Morales trilogy: the best and worst of Erik Morales. He's best when fighting form distance and picking his spots to counter and exchange furiously. As Merchant wisely made note of for the first time in any of these Morales fights, he's basically an arm puncher so he doesn't generate the power that more technically sound punchers like Barrera or even off balance crazy Pacquiao does, who throws his entire body into some of his shots. He often leans into his punches leaving himself exposed as well. Got away with it in the first fight but was punished severely for that by the third. His hand speed is also not the best for a fighter of his style, so really against the best of the best like Barrera and Pacquiao he shouldn't be favoured because he's the slower handed fighter who needs to mostly outbox, which is not a great combination of facts. He's got amazing heart and chin and I love how he immediately fires back when he's hurt. He's smart too in that he constantly changes his style to see what's best working. I can't stand Pacquiao's hands up thing he does when he gets hurt in contrast to Morales just coming back at you with everything he has. In reality, Manny's deal is probably a child-like enthusiasm for fighting but it just strikes me as annoying and arrogant. Morales actually seemed most effective from these fights when he would minimize his jab and actually lead with his right straight and catch his opponent napping and then he could open up from there. The straight was easily his best punch, chopping down or straight over the top. Totally not the fighter I remember, as he's way more complex and he probably maximized what he had in his career because his flaws opened him up and he neither had the fire power to crush the best of the best at 130 consistently nor did he have the lightning quick handspeed to sit on the outside and win a boxing match. I still feel the first Barrera fight was a draw if you count the bullshit slip that was considered a knockdown or a Morales win if you don't consider the bullshit slip a knockdown. Second fight he clearly should have won and the third was super close but Barrera probably had the edge because of Morales' weird first half of the fight. He was doing exceptionally well in the second Pacquiao fight through five or six rounds but Manny's straight left was landing at too high a volume and there was some good bodywork. Steward was right to call out Pacquiao's footwork for being sloppy but Emanuel was even smarter in seeing that Morales' legs were shot by the late middle rounds and he was going to go down for the first time (truly anyway) in his career. I'm interested in seeing how Morales did outside of these trilogies later in his career to see if he was as shot as he looked by the third Manny fight or if it was just Manny's growth, or the likeliest answer being a bit of both. I've heard nightmare stories about the Zahir Raheem fight. But first, I think I'll watch his earlier fights starting with the thriller against human pug Zaragoza. I remember loving the In-Jin Chi fight too. He and JM Marquez have been verbally sparring recently about why they didn't fight each other. Morales was saying that he tried and tried and it was supposed to be those two instead of Morales/Maidana. Erik also said he was dying from making 130 for the Pacquiao fights but Manny wouldn't move up or fight at a catch weight, which is strange because Manny actually weighed more the night of the third fight by 5 pounds (144 to 139). Watched a bit of early Lomachenko last night as well. That first pro fight with the three punch combination to the body that ended Ramirez was so fucking slick. Just a joy to watch such a smart, great defensive fighter that can link his defense to offense and shows controlled aggression. He's also not just good at one aspect of defensive boxing. Head movement, footwork, distance, body movement, and timing are all there. There's talk of him going back down to 130 after the Lopez fight, which should rule in itself, even though all of the big money fights are at welterweight. That's probably a bridge too far though his skill and speed could probably keep him in fights against the best at 147. Moving up in weight is always a risk but I feel like if Manny Pacquiao made the transition to welterweight at 5'5" (and started his career fighting at 106 lbs), then Lomachenko should probably be able to do it if he really wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 29, 2020 Author Share Posted May 29, 2020 You can argue the level of competition during the time played a role in this, but Morales at 122 was a marvel to watch. He was always a pretty good boxer, but he was about a good of a boxer-puncher you were going to see at the time. I think the issue with Erik was I don't think his frame was suited to just keep going up in weight. I think at max, the highest Morales should have went is featherweight. However, once a guy is having trouble making the weight, all bets are off. So yeah, his boxing skills were going to translate in a higher weight class. However. the punching power was going to diminish because he was never going to be able to go punch for punch with naturally bigger fighters. Yeah, he can be a powerhouse at 126 against a Paulie Ayala because Ayala is a bantamweight ten pounds north of where he should be. Against a Barrera or Pacquiao (especially Manny in the 2nd Morales fight when he could incorporate his right instead being a one handed fighter) or whomever else, he had one less card to play. Eventually that was going to bedevil him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 1, 2020 Share Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) Quote Curtis Cokes, a Hall of Fame boxer who held the world welterweight title in the late 1960s, died of heart failure Friday, according to the Dallas Morning News. He was 82. Cokes took the welterweight title in 1966 with a win over Manuel Gonzalez and successfully defended his title five times before falling to José Nápoles in 1969. He was the first boxing world champion in Dallas history and was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2003. Known for a counterpunching style not popular with some fans, according to the Morning News, Cokes prided himself on the punches he avoided as much as the ones he threw: “The name of the sport is boxing, not fighting,” Cokes told The Dallas Morning News in 2013. “You can play football, you can play basketball, but you can’t play boxing. It’s serious business where you can get hurt every time you step into the ring. It’s an art to hit and not be hit" Edited June 1, 2020 by J.T. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 8, 2020 Author Share Posted June 8, 2020 It's going to be interesting to see how this goes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 9, 2020 Author Share Posted June 9, 2020 This is actually a really nice setup. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 They hit up old WWF stages for those trusses? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 British World Heavyweight Champions Anthony Joshua and Tyson Fury have agreed to a two-fight deal, says promoter Eddie Hearn. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/52997084 Now that's welcome news. That's the biggest fight going. Shame that isn't next instead of Fury/Wilder III and Joshua/Pulvev. Don't need Pulvev and Wilder fucking things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twiztor Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Fury/Joshua has the opportunity to be the biggest boxing match in YEARS. i fully expect something to happen to disrupt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 10, 2020 Author Share Posted June 10, 2020 As an African-American, I want Deontay Wilder to fuck it up. People will learn the hard way about Murphy's law one way or the other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 I would love it if Deontay fucks it all up by knocking Fury out. That last fight felt like a fully optimized Fury vs. the worst iteration of Wilder I've seen. Maybe Fury was rusty during the first fight. Maybe. But Deontay is capable of so much more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 18, 2020 Author Share Posted June 18, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 23, 2020 Author Share Posted June 23, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Pretty good fight. Franco looked good as it went along, he has the stamina for 12 rounds. His hands didn't look heavy, legs still looked solid by the end. Throws over a punch every 3 seconds for 12 rounds. He just wore Molony out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 I have to feel like this is a letdown for Top Rank because they've spent a lot of time hyping the Moloney twins, especially since they're light on people that can have actual title fights. They made it seem like we're watching the second coming of Jeff Fenech, but better since there are two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Darius Bagfelt Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) On 6/10/2020 at 2:08 PM, Oyaji said: I would love it if Deontay fucks it all up by knocking Fury out. That last fight felt like a fully optimized Fury vs. the worst iteration of Wilder I've seen. Maybe Fury was rusty during the first fight. Maybe. But Deontay is capable of so much more. Don't count on it. The blueprint was drawn on what to do to beat Wilder. Not many can actually execute it but a larger, stronger better boxer like Fury should eat his lunch no problem again since Wilder lacks the ability to adapt and change his style. Is Wilder 40+ fights into his career going to be able to suddenly out fight a guy that has arguably bested him in 17 of the 19 rounds they have fought. I guess if Tyson walks into a haymaker but then you have that playing on Wilder's psyche. Fury is the one guy that has ate his power and got up twice and not succumbed Edited June 24, 2020 by Serious Darius Bagfelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 20 minutes ago, Serious Darius Bagfelt said: Is Wilder 40+ fights into his career going to be able to suddenly out fight a guy that has arguably bested him in 17 of the 19 rounds they have fought. The round thing is not really the part I would hang my hat on. In like seventeen total rounds against Luis Ortiz, I may have given Wilder three rounds. Maybe four. Against better boxers, Wilder is going to lose rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Darius Bagfelt Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 13 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said: The round thing is not really the part I would hang my hat on. In like seventeen total rounds against Luis Ortiz, I may have given Wilder three rounds. Maybe four. Against better boxers, Wilder is going to lose rounds. Against a better fighter he got his ass kicked last time out and looked out of his league. You don't want to hang your hat on winning rounds thing fine. Problem is you need to win rounds to win fights because eventually you run into someone that negates your power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted June 24, 2020 Author Share Posted June 24, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, Serious Darius Bagfelt said: Problem is you need to win rounds to win fights because eventually you run into someone that negates your power. We've been saying this about Wilder for what? Three or four years since Deontay won the WBC title probably. I don't think it changes the fact this is really time he has been really forced to make serious adjustments to his game. My issue is that Breland and Jay Deas stayed with a pat hand after the first Fury fight. Fury didn't come in fighting the same fight. With Wilder bringing in someone new to his camp (and that was pre-COVID 19 so that might be on hold until they nail down a date), I have to at least give him the same benefit of the doubt that definitely should have been given to Fury. Should Fury be the prohibitive favorite? Hell yes. Does that mean Wilder has no shot? Well, he did knock out plenty of people in unconventional fashion. That's what he is known for. He loses fights until he doesn't lose them anymore. He's the Glenallen Hill (or Dave Kingman for older folks) of boxing. He strikes out a lot, but when he hits them, they sail over apartment buildings. If Wilder KOs Fury in the third fight, we cannot act like, "oh shit, I didn't see this as a possible outcome." We've always know that was Wilder's avenue to his victory. The thing with the second fight is he never landed any good shots on Fury so there was no power to take. If Fury takes the shots that put him down in the first fight, I doubt he just shakes it off. He still has the same chin from before they ever fought. Plenty of people felt like Pacquiao, having moved up several weight classes and against much bigger fighters than JMM, could take Marquez's power. What happened in the last fight against Marquez? Something that didn't happen in the first three fights. Manny went down and didn't get back up. When you put world class fighters in there against each other, crazy shit is libel to happen. And when Wilder fights, that's always a big intangible. Edited June 24, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Darius Bagfelt Posted June 25, 2020 Share Posted June 25, 2020 (edited) So called world class fighters don't usually get drubbed out of the ring like he was. You live in some bizarre world where suddenly Wilder is going to suddenly develop even marginal boxing skills all of a sudden in his mid 30's. He put Fury down but he got up. Again don't know why you figure well next time Tyson won't get up. George Foreman knocked everyone out until he ran into someone he couldn't and then he was a guy that threw undisciplined haymakers that got stopped and though he won a couple more fights before he retired he wasn't the same. Fury knows what to do to negate Wilder's 1 skill and when it comes to the psychological aspects of this Fury is in that driver seat as well. When you know you can kick someones ass a good chunk of the fight is won already.. Wilder isn't going to become Ali in a few months when he has a Rocky 3 moment with Apollo Creed. He is going to be a guy that tries something for a round or two that will look awkward and won't look good then start chucking. Fury will just get inside his power again, push him around lean on him and enforce all of his size advantages on him. 50 pounds is a lot of weight to give up to someone. Wilder flat out doesn't have the frame to handle an inside fight and lacks the skill to do anything on the outside. I have undersold Fury for his whole career. He knows what to do in the ring and fully knows what he does best and how to use his advantages. He was the one that brought something new to the table for the second fight. So unless Deontay pulls a Foreman and comes back and comes back balder and huskier but more disciplined in 10 years he won't change and that Wilder loses 10 out of 10 times to Fury. Well maybe 9 times with a gift draw thrown in there Edited June 25, 2020 by Serious Darius Bagfelt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts