[SEPT 2019] WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[odessasteps]

I'm always amused by the old school boxing writers or commentators who still love boxing with all its warts but are repulsed by mma. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

11 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I'm always amused by the old school boxing writers or commentators who still love boxing with all its warts but are repulsed by mma. 

It's slowly dying down though especially with the creation of something like the Athletic. There is a MMA guy running the boxing section with guys who strictly cover boxing. It helps that you have someone like Lou DiBella who had that infamous ESPN segment with Joe Rogan back in 2007 working with the UFC and having some of his shows now on UFC Fight Pass. If DiBella can let bygones be bygones, the rest of these old fogies can do the same or just ignore it which is fine.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm a bit late here, but in what world does the media NOT treat the Kardashians as trashy? It's pretty much the current definition of trashy guilty pleasure in mainstream entertainment.

Thank you for saying something. I was getting worried. 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Can we throw the Kardashians and Kanye in this bin?

 

[Brian Fowler]

I'm just saying, I've seen their show be a punchline for trashy, worthless entertainment way the fuck more often than I have wrestling in the last decade or so.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Thank you for saying something. I was getting worried. 

Again, based on Burgundy's premise though, if the Kardashians are trashy then the WWE is fucking Chernobyl. Ellen is going to have a Kim Kardashian or Kanye or whomever maybe partially for trainwreck TV, but the average stay at home parent is going to be far more interested in them and what they have to say than a Becky Lynch or Charlotte Flair. At the very least, they will be intrigued. When random wrestler #303 hits their screen, they will do laundry or wash the dishes. They may not hate wrestling and may even be a casual fan every now and then, but they're not going to give a shit about them shilling the next WWE show on the network. Whereas an Ellen or a Wendy Williams will give any of the Kardashians/Jenners or Kardashian/Jenner adjacent people a platform to do what they want and people will watch. So it can't be that trashy.

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm just saying, I've seen their show be a punchline for trashy, worthless entertainment way the fuck more often than I have wrestling in the last decade or so.

That's because people actually know who the Kardashians are and don't know who anyone in the WWE is besides the obvious. People not caring is far more detrimental.

[Brian Fowler]

49 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's because people actually know who the Kardashians are and don't know who anyone in the WWE is besides the obvious. People not caring is far more detrimental.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

[SorceressKnight]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

It boils down to what you said earlier about it, the demographic problem.

The demographic for the Kardashians is a more desirable demographic than the ad agencies' ivory tower stereotype of wrestling fans (the unintelligent blue-collar redneck who thinks it's real because they're stupid, otherwise why'd they watch RASSLIN?), and even if WWE has changed the fans' image to "Pro wrestling is the unofficial pro sport of nerd culture"...well, the Kardashian image is still more desirable (and even the 2010s proof with shows proving  nerds are really, really good money-wise hasn't changed how desirable the culture is.) 

Ultimately, that's what it boils down to: Desirable demographics will admit they watch the Kardashians as a guilty pleasure. Desirable demographics will watch pro wrestling...but the hell they're going to ADMIT IT.

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

I don't think anyone has said Keep Up with the Kardashians is respected. But compared to wrestling, it's not that bad. Yeah, you can provide anecdotal evidence, but the more socially relevant you are the more you open yourself up to ridicule. Obama and Trump no matter who has the best approval rating are going be ridiculed more than your local city councilman. The big problem here is WWE manages to be toxic in an era where they try to be as accessible as possible whether it's allowing wrestlers to do media and making their shows more friendly to different demos. They should not be doing record lows in TV ratings EVERY YEAR (H2H w/ sports or not) and WWE network subscription numbers should not be going down. Live attendance should not be down (I'm not up to speed on that recently, but it was last time I heard so forgive me if I got that wrong). If they didn't have those TV contracts, they would be in a freefall or heading towards one eventually. The Kardashians may be an acquired taste, but they don't have that type of heat. Remember Tiger Blood Charlie Sheen back in 2011/2012? That wore down eventually. Right now, the media is trying be more Kardashian laden if anything. That isn't happening with pro wrestling even if you have a new Monday Night Wars "starting up". If the war is about who can stay above 1 million viewers between NXT and AEW, then wrestling is something everyone has moved past which is not good at all.

6 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

It boils down to what you said earlier about it, the demographic problem.

The demographic for the Kardashians is a more desirable demographic than the ad agencies' ivory tower stereotype of wrestling fans (the unintelligent blue-collar redneck who thinks it's real because they're stupid, otherwise why'd they watch RASSLIN?), and even if WWE has changed the fans' image to "Pro wrestling is the unofficial pro sport of nerd culture"...well, the Kardashian image is still more desirable (and even the 2010s proof with shows proving  nerds are really, really good money-wise hasn't changed how desirable the culture is.) 

Ultimately, that's what it boils down to: Desirable demographics will admit they watch the Kardashians as a guilty pleasure. Desirable demographics will watch pro wrestling...but the hell they're going to ADMIT IT.

I wouldn't even say it's a "rasslin" thing because the Real Housewives of _______/Basketball Wives __ is just as car crash TV if not more. I just figured out who Becky Lynch was three or so years ago when she was ringside for a Luke Sanders fight (she was bad luck because he lost the one or two times she was there). I didn't know she was Irish until I heard her speak LAST YEAR right around the time she got some buzz behind her. It's not because wrestling is stupid or anything like that. Unless you have a Ronda Rousey who is a magnet for media attention and potential sponsorship $, it's just a bunch of faceless nameless people from the WWE factory in a bubble that people on this forum and those likely to go to WWE shows give a shit about. That's a much larger issue than the image of Johnny Rebel in an UGA shirt with mustard stains on it talking about Braun Strowman and The Fiend. If anything, they don't know what WWE fans look like nowadays because they don't watch the shows. Hence, my point being that it's much easier to dunk on something if the alternative is something you don't follow AT ALL.

[SorceressKnight]

5 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Unless you have a Ronda Rousey who is a magnet for media attention and potential sponsorship $, it's just a bunch of faceless nameless people from the WWE factory in a bubble that people on this forum and those likely to go to WWE shows give a shit about. That's a much larger issue than the image of Johnny Rebel in an UGA shirt with mustard stains on it talking about Braun Strowman and The Fiend. 

Honestly, even if WWE is more of a factory...that shows a different issue with how WWE is presented...the Kardashians and reality TV aren't the right comparison for WWE. 

Yes, WWE is a factory churning out inoffensive, pleasant people who don't get you excited. They show up, are big. Maybe some of them cross over like John Cena or The Rock, a few can be lesser stars, and then they're forgotten about. 

How's that any different than Disney or Nickelodeon's star factories' right now? 

Same token, you have people who are basically loyal to their home company, only work in those, are super-famous to their fans and virtually unknown outside of the bubble...but Disney and Nickelodeon have managed to cross over and have people become genuine stars people would know about on average, and WWE do the same thing. 

If anything, WWE needs to be willing to let some wrestlers play against type like Disney/Nick stars will do in order to grow their image and become Rousey-type stars instead. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

33 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying the idea that "wrestling is seen as trash while the Kardashians show is respected" doesn't match up with any reality I'm living in.

I disagree.  The Kardashians are invited to elitist dinner parties, White House (not just because Trump either), award show red carpets,  the whole thing and nobody is viewing them as "haha the Kardashians are here let's poke some fun".  They are respected by media outlets, elites and it's gotten to the point where they are called upon to discuss real social issues which is funny to me and sad but that's the reality of it. 

Not even Vince McMahon himself is viewed in that regard. 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

25 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I disagree.  The Kardashians are invited to elitist dinner parties, White House (not just because Trump either), award show red carpets,  the whole thing and nobody is viewing them as "haha the Kardashians are here let's poke some fun".  They are respected by media outlets, elites and it's gotten to the point where they are called upon to discuss real social issues which is funny to me and sad but that's the reality of it. 

Not even Vince McMahon himself is viewed in that regard. 

Vince shouldn't be respected by media outlets or discussing real social issues. Nor should the Kardashians.

We're living in Idiocracy and the DVDVR is "Not Sure".

Edited September 30, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Elsalvajeloco]

38 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly, even if WWE is more of a factory...that shows a different issue with how WWE is presented...the Kardashians and reality TV aren't the right comparison for WWE. 

Yes, WWE is a factory churning out inoffensive, pleasant people who don't get you excited. They show up, are big. Maybe some of them cross over like John Cena or The Rock, a few can be lesser stars, and then they're forgotten about. 

How's that any different than Disney or Nickelodeon's star factories' right now? 

Same token, you have people who are basically loyal to their home company, only work in those, are super-famous to their fans and virtually unknown outside of the bubble...but Disney and Nickelodeon have managed to cross over and have people become genuine stars people would know about on average, and WWE do the same thing. 

If anything, WWE needs to be willing to let some wrestlers play against type like Disney/Nick stars will do in order to grow their image

The thing here is now you have a debate about crossing over or is it (pro wrestling) being used as a stepping stone. You can be a big star if you're w/ Disney and Nickelodeon. Then at some point, you just age out. With pro wrestling now, I think it's more like how many of the newer generation rappers talk about rap now. If John Cena goes to movies, he has gotten a job promotion. It's no longer crossing over IMO.  Speaking of Kanye, he has influenced so many rappers to believe that fashion is the ultimate end game. Someone like Tyler the Creator who had a number 1 album on billboard charts THIS YEAR doesn't want to be called just a rapper and speaks of people like Tarantino and Wes Anderson with reverence that he never would have for a Rakim or Big Daddy Kane. He sees that as art over rap his chosen profession.

As much flack as people give Cornette, there is credence to what he says (less butterface talk but on the actual topic of pro wrestling) about a Jordynne Grace who said something about it just being fake wrestling. If wrestlers don't take it seriously, why the fuck should anyone else (hardcore, casual, or anything in between) give a damn? I mean maybe it's nitpicking but the whole this is my stage name and also here is my shoot name you can find on Wikipedia on Twitter. It may seem small, but you're screaming this doesn't matter because it's as fake as All My Children.

38 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

and become Rousey-type stars instead. 

Rousey was a once in a lifetime occurrence though. She filled a gap in combat sports that no one was able to do before and not for the lack of trying (Mia St. John, Christy Martin, etc.). Bellator has signed a bunch of hot women. Some who could fight or some who can't. Some who have personalities and some who don't. They have more freedom than I would assume you're average WWE male or female wrestler has. They still haven't found another Rousey and that company is ran by someone who was the first to sign Rousey in Scott Coker. Ilima-Lei Macfarlane has some appeal, but she is probably on par with a Sasha Banks or someone like that. The problem is Bellator is such a distant second that is her ceiling. If she were in the UFC, it would probably be a much different story because UFC is a brand name. With WWE, that label is more of an albatross and WWE will never let anyone shed it if they're signed with them. It is what it is. You will remain inside that bubble until they never longer see fit to have you as part of it.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[odessasteps]

I wonder if Ronda would have gotten as popular if Gina had continued to fight and not make film(s). 

[Niners Fan in CT]

26 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Vince shouldn't be respected by media outlets or discussing real social issues. Nor should the Kardashians.

I agree but what I'm saying is Vince/wrestling is treated as trashy/Jerry Springer fast food garbage while these same media outlets (and beyond all the way to the White House) view the Kardashians as legitimate high class dining. 

[odessasteps]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree but what I'm saying is Vince/wrestling is treated as trashy/Jerry Springer fast food garbage while these same media outlets (and beyond all the way to the White House) view the Kardashians as legitimate high class dining. 

Because they were already rich before becoming famous on their own? 

[Brian Fowler]

Grace called pro wrestling performance art, and, at the risk of pissing people off, I can't come up with any way to say that's not true.

[Niners Fan in CT]

7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Because they were already rich before becoming famous on their own? 

I don't know how rich they were back in whatever it was 2004 or whatever. I don't think it was until the mid-2000s were they started to earn most of their wealth.  They were wealthy but I would have the say the McMahon family was wealthier than them during the 90s, McMahon was already a billionaire by what 2000. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Niners Fan in CT

[odessasteps]

I was never clear on just how rich Robert Kardashian was, at least Pre OJ trial. 

[Brian Fowler]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't know how rich they were back in whatever it was 2004 or whatever. I don't think it was until the mid-2000s were they started to earn most of their wealth.  They were wealthy but I would have the say the McMahon family was wealthier than them during the 90s, McMahon was already a billionaire by what 2000. 

Vince was a billionaire right after going public, but the stock dropped a ton in the mid-00's and he wasn't close to it until a few years ago.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, Brian Fowler said:

Grace called pro wrestling performance art, and, at the risk of pissing people off, I can't come up with any way to say that's not true.

I was thinking about that but also when Seth was getting into shit about him being the best performer and she chimed in sarcastically with who is the best at fake wrestling or something to that effect hours later. That was more eye popping to me than the performance art stuff. If it was coming from someone who wasn't wrestling in promotions people have heard of or just a fan I probably wouldn't bat an eye. But if you're attitude is well my profession is fake so I mean nothing matters really, that shouldn't really sit well with anyone. This is coming from someone who may be pushed in the future. Why should I give a fuck about her now if she don't care? That Kevin Nash (I'm just picking a name as it could be any number of the past too cool for the room guys from the past) "well it's all fake bud" nonchalant attitude is off putting. I'm not saying you do what Seth did, but um, don't call your profession phony.

11 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder if Ronda would have gotten as popular if Gina had continued to fight and not make film(s). 

She probably would have been more famous if she beat Gina first rather than Cyborg. Gina was an ok fighter, but between magically making catchweights specifically designed for her and being a fairly one dimensional muay thai fighter larger than everyone else, she would have got trounced sooner rather than later. Gina knew that was the end of the line.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I agree actors don't treat their profession like "ahh it's just movies, it's just green screen,  who gives a fuck."   They get together and throw huge elaborate banquet dinners and award ceremonies to celebrate the art and then someone is presented an award and they are up there crying giving their speech and everyone in the actors section of the audience is clapping/crying and looking like this is the most important fucking thing that's ever happened.  

If wrestlers are going to view their art as dumb fake bullshit that's an issue. Why would anyone else take them seriously if the performers themselves think it's dumb. I'm not saying wrestlers should go on Twitter and discuss it like we discussed The Wages of Fear in film class but I've always been someone who thinks of wrestling more as an art rather than Hornswaggle and poop jokes.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree actors don't treat their profession like "ahh it's just movies, it's just green screen,  who gives a fuck."   They get together and throw huge elaborate banquet dinners and award ceremonies to celebrate the art and then someone is presented an award and they are up there crying giving their speech and everyone in the actors section of the audience is clapping/crying and looking like this is the most important fucking thing that's ever happened.  

If wrestlers are going to view their art as dumb fake bullshit that's an issue. Why would anyone else take them seriously if the performers themselves think it's dumb. I'm not saying wrestlers should go on Twitter and discuss it like we discussed The Wages of Fear in film class but I've always been someone who thinks of wrestling more as an art rather than Hornswaggle and poop jokes.  

If Bill Goddamn Goldberg went on Leno in 1998 and told everyone "well it's just all fake and me and Terry Bollea are great friends in real life. Steve Austin seems like he would be fun to hang out with", how much steam would come off of him in terms of him being a superstar? Imagine Steve Austin doing the same and telling everyone on Regis and Kathie Lee that Vince is a swell guy and he hugs him everytime WWF has their Christmas party. People would tune out in droves.

Jordynne Grace is suppose to be this imposing giant powerful female wrestler. She could be a superstar if she was booked correctly. However, her attitude is indicative (from what I've seen as a casual fan which is important if you want convert casuals into hardcores) that she has no aspiration to be one. She wants to wrestle, get paid, and go home. Nothing wrong with that, but we're having a much larger discussion about why that might be problematic. After All In, I was cheering for her. Now..knowing what I know, if I accidently turn on Impact on AXS one day and see her, she is "I'm a phony wrestler doing performance art" lady now. I didn't put that label on her. She did.

[Ultimo Necro]

The irony of the whole Jordynne Grace stuff is that for someone “playing a character”, she isn’t even in the top 5 female characters in Impact.

Tessa, Taya, Rosemary, Madison and Alisha are all far more rounded and well played ‘characters’ and none of them are on social media admitting to playing a part.

Impact for all its flaws, and there are thousands of flaws, does give their wrestlers chances to develop their gimmicks.