WWE Network Conversation

[odessasteps]

I thought Vince sent Russo to ruin wcw. 

[DJ Hero Morganti]

4 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I thought Vince sent Russo to ruin wcw. 

Russo was sent to defile the corpse.

[SirSmUgly]

Man, face Johnny B. Badd is over in 1992. This gimmick has zero business getting over.

I sort of think that Marc Mero is underrated as a guy who can get a character over. He even got that bland Wildman shit over in 1996 WWF somehow. His WWF run was cut short by his knee injuries and then doing what he could to get his wife over even if it killed him off. Dude definitely gets this extremely questionable gimmick over, though. His issue is that he really doesn't fit into where WCW or WWF ends up by 1997. He's maybe better off if he's in the business five or six years earlier. 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on Souled Out 1998

WCW tried to right the wrongs of Starrcade by presenting Raven-Benoit, Giant-Nash and even a 6-man tag involving Konnan and the nWo vs. the Steiners and Ray Traylor.

The biggest wrong was the WCW title being held up between Hogan and Sting. Roddy Piper made the rematch for SuperBrawl, and World War 3 winner Scott Hall was sent to the waiting room. Sting should have been defending the title against Hall and other nWo members before facing Bret and BILL GOLDBERG later in the year.

Chavo Guerrero Jr. scored the win in the opening lucha 8-man match, but La Parka stole the headline by bashing his opponents and teammates with a chair.

The Diamond Cutter is considered a great WCW finisher, but nobody could seem to escape the Crippler Crossface, either. Raven smiled and passed out.

Chris Jericho won the Cruiserweight title from Rey Misterio and destroyed Rey's knee after the match. Jericho was starting to hit his stride as a complete jerk. The WWE Network broke the rules of time as Jericho entered the ring to "Break the Walls Down,"  which was first heard a year and a half later when Y2J entered the WWF.

Rick Martel put up a strong fight against TV champion Booker T, even though Martel was also fighting Father TIme.

Louie Spicolli appeared in Scott Hall's corner, but Louie sadly passed away a few weeks later.

Dusty Rhodes joining the nWo was an even bigger betrayal than Hulk Hogan's turn. Poor Tony Schiavone was heartbroken. Dusty explained on Thunder that he was rebelling against the Turner suits who corporatized what he had built before relegating Big Dust to the commentary booth.

Scott Steiner showed signs of joining the nWo with his erratic behavior and chummy conversation with Buff Bagwell after the match. Instead of waiting on the other side of the turnbuckle, Scott stood next to Traylor, and Rick made the hot tag to both partners at the same time.

Hogan uncharacteristically came out in Nash's corner. I love coffee, but why was there a pot of hot coffee at ringside for Nash to throw in the Giant's face? And at that time of night? Nash won after dropping Giant right on his head with the Jackknife Powerbomb.

Bret Hart made his WCW debut against Ric Flair ... and it wasn't the main event? WCW legitimated the WWF by calling Bret a five-time World champion. For beating 13-time World champion Flair (two of THOSE were in the WWF), Bret is 2-for-2 as MVP of WCW pay-per-views. Something tells me he won't be able to keep up that streak.

WCW finally seemed to be turning the overall tide against the dissension-plagued nWo. Luger beat Savage with the rack, and Sting helped him fend off the troops.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Gorman

[SirSmUgly]

When it comes to WCW PPVs, I think I like Beach Blast '92 over Spring Stampede '94 by a smidge. The Hyatt/Madusa stuff is garbage, but everything else on the card works so well for me, with the bonus of Jesse Ventura on commentary. It also has, like Spring Stampede '94, the benefit of having a lot of different match styles and pacing on the card, so everything in-ring feels different on top of being excellent. 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on SuperBrawl VIII

Booker T won the first two matches, beating Rick Martel for the TV title and then immediately retaining it against Saturn. Poor Martel blew out his knee and only wrestled one more match in WCW.

It's funny how Disco Inferno of all people had Stone Cold's finisher. Disco beat La Parka with the "Chartbuster." 

Brad Armstrong wore an "Armstrong Curse" shirt to defy announcer Larry Zbyszko for calling his family a bunch of losers. Hey, Brad and Steve won titles in WCW! Brad wasn't winning on this night, as he was added to the BILL GOLDBERG streak.

Steve McMichael was angry with referee Scott Dickinson for stopping the match against Davey Boy Smith, who had Mongo trapped in an armbar. "I never gave up!" I'm sure he would have preferred Davey Boy taking his arm home in a doggy bag.

Juventud Guerrera lost his mask and had to suffer the added indignity of Chris Jericho mocking him on the microphone. Juvi didn't even get to reveal his real name and hometown.

Lex Luger wore enough tape around his ribs to make DDP say, "that's a lot, bro." Luger overcame this injury to beat Randy Savage with the rack again. Savage was still in the nWo, but he beat up the other nWo guys who came out to help him before the finish.

Scott Steiner turned on his brother and joined the nWo, literally handing the tag team belts back to the Outsiders.  Steiner could have been a big singles star years earlier if he wanted to be.

Sting is the MVP for finally settling the World title controversy and beating Hulk Hogan. He even spraypainted "WCW" on Hollywood after the match. Any other result would have made the previous 18 months a colossal waste of time.

 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Gorman

[Gorman]

Thoughts on WCW Uncensored 98

Booker T continued in his role of show opener, beating Eddy Guerrero to retain the TV title. Eddy took out his frustations on Chavo Jr. after the match.

Juventud Guerrera made a strong comeback from losing his mask by defeating Konnan.

Chris Jericho is the MVP for his third straight cruiserweight title defense on PPV: Rey Jr. Juvi, and here over Dean Malenko. Gene Okerlund unjustly called Malenko a "bona fide loser" for failing to win a match on four straight PPVs. He didn't wrestle at Souled Out or SuperBrawl! 

Scott Steiner got off to a slow start as an nWo member. Lex Luger beat him after using the steel-plated forearm OF DOOM, and then his brother Rick dumped him out of the ring.

DDP beat Raven and Benoit in a three-way to keep the US title. All of the ECW-style foreign objects blew up in Raven's face, like DDP hitting a top-rope Diamond Cutter through a table for the finish. DDP was having a great year as champion just like Jericho.

Wait, this is Uncensored. Shouldn't there be some crazy gimmick matches?

POWERBOMB IS LEGAL - Okay, that will have to do. The Giant saw Luger and DDP coming out with tons of tape on their ribs, said "Hold my beer" and came to the ring with a neck brace. He beat Nash by DQ when Brian Adams attacked him with a baseball bat - then Nash broke another bat over Giant's shoulder.

Rick Rude helped as much as he could, but he couldn't stop Curt Hennig from losing again to Bret Hart. At one point, Rude snuck in and out of the ring to attack Bret Hart without the referee noticing. Amazingly, Dusty Rhodes pulled off the same trick in the Sting-Hall match. 

STEEL CAGE - Speaking of wrestlers who never beat certain other wrestlers, maybe Randy Savage will finally beat Hulk Hogan since there is no title on the line, right? Wrong! At least this time he didn't lose, either. Brutus "The Disciple" Beefcake interfered, apparently forgiving Hogan for not forgiving him about Halloween Havoc 94. Sting, who had just finished defending the WCW title against Scott Hall, went up to the ceiling and descended to help Savage, who showed his appreciation by attacking him.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Gorman

[SirSmUgly]

Did Disco start doing the Chartbuster after Austin had established the Stone Cold Stunner as a "we give our joke low midcarder your main eventer's finisher" deal, or no? 

Billy Gunn using the Jackhammer as a transitional move that only got two was the most ridiculous one of those in the Attitude Era.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

2 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Did Disco start doing the Chartbuster after Austin had established the Stone Cold Stunner as a "we give our joke low midcarder your main eventer's finisher" deal, or no? 

Billy Gunn using the Jackhammer as a transitional move that only got two was the most ridiculous one of those in the Attitude Era.

I felt the stranger version of this was Ed Leslie's "Apocalypse" stunner was treated like death in the context of WCW PPV main events. 

[SirSmUgly]

People get on Jim Ross for being so focused on the athletic backgrounds of other wrestlers, but I'm fine with it. It adds legitimacy to things when a guy comes over to wrestling to make the big money after their pro careers elsewhere are over (and when he's working with a color commentator that points that out, it works out nicely). 

What people should actually get on him for is calling everything that isn't a straight left to the jaw or a boot to the gut a "martial arts strike/kick." 

Also, I would have sworn that Stan Lane had the best "white guy throws fake insulting martial arts strike that wouldn't hurt a fly because he's not taking you seriously" strikes in the business, but I forgot about WCW-era Tracy Smothers. 

[DEAN]

What the fuck?

 

[piranesi]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that, for the sake of your own mental health, I'm guessing a "Don't read the replies" will be in order.

[zendragon]

6 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Did Disco start doing the Chartbuster after Austin had established the Stone Cold Stunner as a "we give our joke low midcarder your main eventer's finisher" deal, or no? 

Billy Gunn using the Jackhammer as a transitional move that only got two was the most ridiculous one of those in the Attitude Era.

Disco yes I don't recall Billy Gunn using the jackhammer until about 2001

[Gorman]

Thoughts on Spring Stampede 98

Saturn put up a good fight, but he couldn't avoid becoming Victim No. 74 of BILL GOLDBERG.

All Chavo Guerrero Jr. had to accomplish to escape Uncle Eddy's control was beat Ultimo Dragon. It didn't happen.

Booker T and Chris Jericho continued their strong championship runs with wins over Chris Benoit and Prince Iaukea, respectively.

DDP wasn't so fortunate. He fought off Raven and the Flock, but as soon as he was attacked by Horace Hogan (disguised as a crew member), he lost the US title. Bobby Heenan correctly predicted that Raven would lose the belt to Goldberg 24 hours later. 

Bret Hart wasn't on this show. I'm sure Davey Boy Smith and Jim Neidhart would have appreciated his help when they were getting beaten down by Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, and Vincent. 

Hogan & Nash beat Piper & Giant in a baseball bat when Brutus "The Disciple" Beefcake brought in another bat that appeared to be loaded. Well, a lot of guys were corking their bats at that time. Hogan then waffled Nash with the bat as well. Normally I wouldn't condone this, but Nash said before the match that he might do the same to Hogan, so Hollywood just beat him to the punch.

Randy Savage said he was going to beat Sting for the World title, take over the nWo and move Hogan to the bottom of the pecking order. Nash hit the Jackknife Powerbomb on Sting to help Savage win the title. For establishing the Machotopia that we've all longed to live in, Nash is the MVP. Unfortunately, this dreamscape dissolved 24 hours later when Hogan upstaged Savage yet again by beating him for the title.

 

[SirSmUgly]

Raven attacking DDP with the stop sign on TRL during this feud was iconic, IMO, even if it's only iconic to me because no one remembers it. It was the '90s-est shit ever, though, and I loved every second of it. 

[Gorman]

Thoughts on Slamboree 98

I smiled immediately when "Worcester, MA" came on the screen, because that was the same building where I announced the "Moosin: God of Martial Arts" PPV in 2010.

Fit Finlay looked great as TV champion. Chris Benoit lost after getting distracted by Booker T simply walking to the ring. Benoit was unable to shed the announcers' description of him as "the best wrestler never to win a title."

Lex Luger kept winning and he kept dropping down the card. He seemed annoyed after beating Brian Adams in the second match.

Like the Giant one year earlier, Juventud Guerrera stepped aside to allow Dean Malenko the chance to beat up Chris Jericho and regain the Cruiserweight title. The unsung hero was Ciclope, who gave up his spot in the match and his outfit to make Malenko's ruse a success.

All Chavo Guerrero had to do to escape Uncle Eddy's control was root for Ultimo Dragon to beat Eddy. It didn't happen. Chavo then snapped and attacked Ultimo. Eddy tried to stop Chavo, even though that was exactly how he was teaching Chavo to act.

Raven's Bowery Death Match against DDP, which he lost again, was fun and ridiculously complicated. A weapons-filled steel cage seemed to help Raven, but putting a lid on the cage meant the Flock couldn't interfere ... or could they? A masked "riot squad" was protecting the ring, but the Flock plowed right through them. Then Van Hammer, who at this point was on the outs with the Flock, started attacking his former nest-mates. 

Then the riot squad came into the ring, and while some were Flock members, another unmasked as Mortis and then unmasked as Kanyon! He helped DDP win, handcuffed Raven and the Flock, and destroyed Raven with the WCW version of the Chairshot Heard Round the World.

It was also funny to hear the backstory about DDP and Raven growing up together, as if New Jersey were one big neighborhood. Would that include Tommy Dreamer and Beulah?

Speaking of the Flock, they were supposed to face BILL GOLDBERG in a gauntlet match. But Saturn said, "Don't worry, guys ... I've got this." Instead, he became Victim No. 88 of The Streak.

Bret Hart wrestled Randy Savage for the first time on PPV, with Roddy Piper as special referee ... and it wasn't the main event? Hogan returned the favor for Bret helping him beat Savage for the title, and the Macho Man lost again.

The Giant had turned heel and joined the nWo Hollywood faction. GIANT TURN COUNT: 2. 

Scott Hall waffled Kevin Nash with the title belt and like Scott Steiner two months earlier, literally handed the tag team belts to Sting & The Giant. It was hilarious to see Hall, Giant, and Dusty Rhodes unwittingly induct Sting into the nWo black-and-white, which was of course led by Hogan. Sting looked totally dumbstruck as the show went off the air. For being such a fun agent of chaos, Scott Hall is the MVP.

Eric Bischoff issued a grandstand challenge to Vince McMahon, who of course didn't show up. WCW had a backstage pass with Vince's photo on it, and security was also given a "watch out for these people" page with photos of Vince, Austin, X-Pac, and Chyna. Wouldn't it have been fun for Vince to show up ... with Undertaker and Kane? It also would have been fun for Vince to make the same challenge to Bischoff to fight him at a WWF show.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Gorman

[Cobra Commander]

I was at the Nitro 6 days before Slamboree 98. So I got to see Bischoff challenge McMahon, and Bischoff got cheered, which probably should have been considered a bad sign for momentum that the WWF's new lead heel was considered more of a heel than WCW's lead heel.

So it was not a good use of time. I also got to see the Giant turn heel and Hogan/Savage. So I marked off some items from a checklist in one night at Kemper.

[SirSmUgly]

Arn/Eaton vs. Slater/Valentine at Clash 20 is on my list of favorite tag matches ever, I think. Two heel teams wrestling at a fast pace and doing chicanery, pulling out every trick in the book they had against one another, is a rarity. This thing is GREAT and if you haven't seen it before or in awhile, it's worth pulling it up and taking the ten minutes to watch it. It was a fun sprint, and I never would have expected "fun sprint" between these two teams. 

[cwoy2j]

21 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Raven attacking DDP with the stop sign on TRL during this feud was iconic, IMO, even if it's only iconic to me because no one remembers it. It was the '90s-est shit ever, though, and I loved every second of it. 

The best part of that deal was Dave Grohl and Taylor Hawkins (RIP) being legit startled and jumping up and going "holy shit" when Raven first smacked DDP with the stop sign and you can hear them going, "oh Jesus!" when Raven ddt'ed him through a table.

 

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by cwoy2j

[cwoy2j]

On 3/28/2022 at 8:38 AM, Gorman said:

Thoughts on Starrcade 97

PROBLEM No. 3 - Raven showed up, but decided not to wrestle.

Raven explained that his contract allowed him to wrestle whenever he wanted, and he chose not to wrestle Chris Benoit. This was bad timing after the previous no-shows.

Steve McMichael seemed destined to battle fellow former football players: Kevin Greene, Reggie White, and BILL GOLDBERG, who won a predictably sloppy match.

DDP capped off a great year. His feud with Savage elevated him to main-event status, and he won the US title here from Curt Hennig with the Diamond Cutter.

 

IIRC, Raven was dealing with some major stomach/pancreas issues at the time and WCW knew there was no way he was gonna wrestle. Didn't stop them from advertising the match all the way up through bell time though.

[cwoy2j]

1 hour ago, Gorman said:

Thoughts on Slamboree 98

Eric Bischoff issued a grandstand challenge to Vince McMahon, who of course didn't show up. WCW had a backstage pass with Vince's photo on it, and security was also given a "watch out for these people" page with photos of Vince, Austin, X-Pac, and Chyna. Wouldn't it have been fun for Vince to show up ... with Undertaker and Kane? It also would have been fun for Vince to make the same challenge to Bischoff to fight him at a WWF show.

Bischoff said that Hogan was convinced Vince would actually show up. He also said that Big Show offered to jump in if anything got out of hand but Bischoff was confident that if Vince actually showed, they would probably just end up working and if not, that he could use his martial arts background to keep from getting killed despite the size disadvantage and the bum knee he was dealing with at the time.

[cwoy2j]

22 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Arn/Eaton vs. Slater/Valentine at Clash 20 is on my list of favorite tag matches ever, I think. Two heel teams wrestling at a fast pace and doing chicanery, pulling out every trick in the book they had against one another, is a rarity. This thing is GREAT and if you haven't seen it before or in awhile, it's worth pulling it up and taking the ten minutes to watch it. It was a fun sprint, and I never would have expected "fun sprint" between these two teams. 

I think this is why heel vs. heel works better than face vs. face. You're not asking for the audience to pick a side so both guys/teams can basically still do their normal stuff. When it's face vs. face and you're not trying to turn one guy heel, you have to be careful to have one guy not to act too heelish. That's a fine line to walk whereas when it's heel vs. heel, both parties can kinda just cut loose and do their thing and let the crowd decide the cheering dynamic. Bret is probably the best at walking the face vs. face line because, well, he's Bret Hart.

Edited April 8, 2022 by cwoy2j

[DreamBroken]

24 minutes ago, cwoy2j said:

The best part of that deal was Dave Grohl and Taylor Hawkins (RIP) being legit startled and jumping up and going "holy shit" when Raven first smacked DDP with the stop sign and you can hear them going, "oh Jesus!" when Raven ddt'ed him through a table.

 

 

 

Amazing. Love the wrestling/pop culture mix of the times/era

[SirSmUgly]

7 hours ago, cwoy2j said:

I think this is why heel vs. heel works better than face vs. face. You're not asking for the audience to pick a side so both guys/teams can basically still do their normal stuff. When it's face vs. face and you're not trying to turn one guy heel, you have to be careful to have one guy not to act too heelish. That's a fine line to walk whereas when it's heel vs. heel, both parties can kinda just cut loose and do their thing and let the crowd decide the cheering dynamic. Bret is probably the best at walking the face vs. face line because, well, he's Bret Hart.

So, I want to come back around to this because I finished the clash, and Ron Simmons really did have a chance to be a long-term main eventer, but they botched it. 

I love Mick, but Cactus had already been chewed up and spit out by Sting a couple months earlier in a better version of the match that Cactus had with Simmons. It was pretty dire; Cactus took way too much of the match. Then, after the match is over, he signals that the feud will continue by bringing in Barbarian and Butch Reed. Look, I love both those guys, but they are not the guys that you have your world champ feuding with in 1992. Further, all this happens in the middle of the card, not even in the main event. Awful. They might as well not have bothered if this was the way they were going to go about getting Simmons to stay over at that level. 

Meanwhile, Sting is still the focal point of the company in the middle of a feud with Jake Roberts. 

This brings me around to your post, @cwoy2j. 

If I get unstuck in time and end up back in 1992 in Bill Watts's body, a la Quantum Leap, I'm doing a lot of things differently. One, I'm not arguing that businesses should be able to lock out racial minorities. Two, I'm not doing the rule changes for WCW matches AND promoting the NWA Championship/Tag Championships and NWA championship matches, which fall under NWA rules that are different from the WCW rules that I'm trying to establish. K.I.S.S., and I don't mean the band. 

Finally, I am going ahead with the Simmons-as-champ experiment, and I am looking at the roster and seeing that I have two options:

1. Feed Rick Rude to Simmons off the jump since Rude is one of two heels that would be taken as legit main event level. Instead, they've got Rude losing to Chono in Japan and showing the results of that on TV. I like Chono! The problem is that Rude is the only non-Vader heel they have that is a believable threat to be World Champ. He can't be eating losses like that on TV. 
2. Run a face vs. face program for Simmons. Yes, face vs. face programs have all the issues that you note. But there is someone other than Bret Hart who is good in those matchups. He's a former World Champ, is a vet with tons of credibility, and can have a good match with anybody. In other words, I would run Ricky Steamboat vs. Ron Simmons in a pass-the-torch type of match. Steamboat beat Rude at Beach Blast and can credibly claim to be in line for a title shot before Rude. He's at the level that Simmons beating him would mean something. Instead, they put the TV title on him. 

I think Watts missing on Steamboat/Simmons face vs. face as an immediate way to get Simmons more legitimacy is about as bad as Savage being on color instead of in the ring against Bret as the Royal Rumble winner at WM IX. When you're depleted on the heel side and you're trying to get a face over, you have to be creative and take a chance on face vs. face matches where the new champ beats an old legend to legitimize themselves as a main eventer. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[cwoy2j]

I wouldn't have fed Rude to Simmons right off the bat. I think Rude should've been the big bad for Simmons to slay after a decently long program.

I think putting Simmons against Steamboat would be tough on Ron because damn near anyone who goes against Steamboat is going to get booed. You could save a busload of kittens, orphans and old people from going off a cliff but the minute you start beating on Ricky Steamboat, people are going to boo you. Simmons might come across as a bully heel in that situation and he definitely doesn't have the nuance to walk that line I was talking about.