The Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

[elizium]

I didn't vote for McGwire, but he was better than Kingman. 700 more walks, 92 points higher in career OBP. Career WAR of 62 to 17.1. Over 500 more total bases in only 200 more times at the plate. Yes, their counting stats are very comparable, but pretty much everything else skews heavily to Big Mac.

[OSJ]

 

 

Player a has 583 hrs, .263 avg and 1414 rbis and 1626 hits. player b has 442 hrs, .236 avg and 1230 rbis and 1575 hits. I would say given the differences in era and stat inflation and a needle in his ass, if you put in player a, put in player b. Player a is Mark mcgwire, player b is Dave kingman.

 

No one ever bought a ticket to see Dave Kingman. Please explain why no team in baseball wanted Kingman when still in his prime and McGwire was loved by both teams he played for?

 

Kuetsar: If Big Mac is so one-dimensional, how come he's a respected hitting coach?

 

Numbers don't lie, and no hitter with less than 2000 hits should sniff Cooperstown.

 

 

 

Not a big fan of Travis Jackson, Sam Crawford, Jimmy Collins, Home Run Baker, or Gabby Hartnett, eh? There are quite a few more with less than 2000 career hits. An important thing to evaluate is "What was the player's job?"  Now if it was to get on first, then we have to say that Big Mac wasn't very effective, however, to my knowledge, he never batted lead off or second. His job was to drive in runs. That he did with flying colors having one of the highest extra-base hit ratios of any player. Think about it for second, a third of the time he got a hit it wasn't just for extra bases, it was a friggin home run.

 

I was able to watch his entire career and while there were several better hitters during his era, he gave pitchers nightmares. It was all or nothing when pitching to him, and if you didn't strike him out, he would hurt you by getting on base or knocking the ball out of the park.

[Cristobal]

Not a big fan of Travis Jackson, Sam Crawford, Jimmy Collins, Home Run Baker, or Gabby Hartnett, eh? There are quite a few more with less than 2000 career hits. An important thing to evaluate is "What was the player's job?"  Now if it was to get on first, then we have to say that Big Mac wasn't very effective, however, to my knowledge, he never batted lead off or second.

I'd note that a .394 OBP is nothing to sneeze at.

[Kuetsar]

 

 

 

Player a has 583 hrs, .263 avg and 1414 rbis and 1626 hits. player b has 442 hrs, .236 avg and 1230 rbis and 1575 hits. I would say given the differences in era and stat inflation and a needle in his ass, if you put in player a, put in player b. Player a is Mark mcgwire, player b is Dave kingman.

 

No one ever bought a ticket to see Dave Kingman. Please explain why no team in baseball wanted Kingman when still in his prime and McGwire was loved by both teams he played for?

 

Kuetsar: If Big Mac is so one-dimensional, how come he's a respected hitting coach?

 

Numbers don't lie, and no hitter with less than 2000 hits should sniff Cooperstown.

 

 

 

Not a big fan of Travis Jackson, Sam Crawford, Jimmy Collins, Home Run Baker, or Gabby Hartnett, eh? There are quite a few more with less than 2000 career hits. An important thing to evaluate is "What was the player's job?"  Now if it was to get on first, then we have to say that Big Mac wasn't very effective, however, to my knowledge, he never batted lead off or second. His job was to drive in runs. That he did with flying colors having one of the highest extra-base hit ratios of any player. Think about it for second, a third of the time he got a hit it wasn't just for extra bases, it was a friggin home run.

 

I was able to watch his entire career and while there were several better hitters during his era, he gave pitchers nightmares. It was all or nothing when pitching to him, and if you didn't strike him out, he would hurt you by getting on base or knocking the ball out of the park.

 

If he got in, his career hits put him around the evers and chance level. He is in the hall of the very good, not HOF level.  The HRS are a nice stat, mitigated by the fact he played an entire career with a needle in his ass.  

[Cristobal]

So, "his career" puts him at the level of Dave Kingman, who he's a much better version of, and Frank Chance, who he's not remotely like, because steroids. Thanks for that.

[Kuetsar]

So, "his career" puts him at the level of Dave Kingman, who he's a much better version of, and Frank Chance, who he's not remotely like, because steroids. Thanks for that.

no the roid use is the only reason he stayed on the field long enough to get to that many home runs. Go look at hall of famers life time hits, and his lifetime hits put him at about the same number as Chance.,not that he's the same player. He's a HR hitter,with a low average, and not enough other stats to make up the difference.  I just dont think being a better version of dave kingman is enough to get in.

[The Man Known as Dan]

McGwire and Sosa, to me, both are no duh inclusions just because what they meant to baseball. We have no clue if or how the MLB fully recovers from the lockout without those 2.

[Tabe]

Career OPS+ of 163 more than offsets his .263 average. His OBP and slugging are both outstanding. Plus there's that massive upper deck centerfield home run he hit at Tiger Stadium :-)

[Cristobal]

So, "his career" puts him at the level of Dave Kingman, who he's a much better version of, and Frank Chance, who he's not remotely like, because steroids. Thanks for that.

no the roid use is the only reason he stayed on the field long enough to get to that many home runs. Go look at hall of famers life time hits, and his lifetime hits put him at about the same number as Chance.,not that he's the same player.

So if you go by nothing other than a single cherry-picked counting stat, then their careers are "around the same level".

Fucking hell, you didn't even get THAT part right. McGwire had 1626 total hits vs Chance's 1288.

He's a HR hitter,with a low average, and not enough other stats to make up the difference.

Are you capable of making an argument that cites actual numbers rather than just vaguely hints at them? What other stats "aren't enough"? He had a .394 career OBP. That's better than Joe Morgan had. On the career offensive WAR leaderboard, he's right in between two HOFers, Johnny Bench and Jesse Burkett. His adjusted OPS+ is better than Mays'. He's on the top 40 in career walks.

I just dont think being a better version of dave kingman is enough to get in.

You were originally attempting to make the case that he wasn't even a better version of Dave Kingman.

[Kuetsar]

My argument was that era and steroids included he was extremely similar, and given those advantages, perhaps he's a little better but not much. You said he's a better version of Kingman, and I conceded the point .

Here's those stat by the way, career hits are 1626, which if inducted, would put him between Rizzuto and Buck ewing, below Tinker, Evers, cochrane, Greenberg and even Rick Ferrell. By the way that's would be good for 135th place among hall of famers. Now for doubles, which for a power hitter should be high right?  No. just 252 for him, good for 133rd place and measured against hall of famers, would have him sandwiched between Joe gordon and Tinker.  RBI, 45th place amongst HOF, between jim Bottomly and Robin Yount.  His 1167 runs? Good for 100th place between Chuck Klein and Billy Herman. Games played would be 1874, good for 103rd, between kiki cuyler and Bobby Doer. His 62.0 War? Would put him at  74th place , between Home run Baker and Jackie Robinson. No speed to speak of at all.

 

Now for those stats that benefit him. 1317 BB's which put him at 23rd place, very respectable, between Murray and Luke Appling.  His 1596 strikeouts would put him at 9th highest, put between WInfield and Mccovey, not a disgraceful place given the sluggers in the top ten. His BA is 153rd, tied with Jocko Conlon and one point above reggie Jackson. His .394 OBP, good for 37th, tied with Cap Anson and Frank Chance. His career .588 slugging puts him at 6th place, between Greenberg and Dimaggio. his hrs of course are good for 5th place between Killebrew and frank Robinson.  .982 OPS, puts him at 6th, between Hornsby and Mantle. 12 All Star games out of 16 seasons is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

 

He hits HRs at a titantic clip, and slugged the ball. If that one skill or two depends on semantics. His career levels at all other accumulated stats put him at very low levels. Lest I be accused of cherry picking these stats, they are from baseball-reference.com, and I simply compared his levels vs hall of famer level. I contend that the HRs are not nearly as impressive as it would appear, given the lowered mound, dilution of pitching from expansion, and the fact that he's an admitted steroid user. For me that's not good enough to make the hall of fame, and not a completely unfair comparison to Dave Kingman. If you want to put him in with sosa to celebrate 1998, that's a different argument to me, and not a compelling one, for me at least seeing at least part of that achievement came from a bottle.

[Kuetsar]

 

 

So, "his career" puts him at the level of Dave Kingman, who he's a much better version of, and Frank Chance, who he's not remotely like, because steroids. Thanks for that.

no the roid use is the only reason he stayed on the field long enough to get to that many home runs. Go look at hall of famers life time hits, and his lifetime hits put him at about the same number as Chance.,not that he's the same player.

 

So if you go by nothing other than a single cherry-picked counting stat, then their careers are "around the same level".

Fucking hell, you didn't even get THAT part right. McGwire had 1626 total hits vs Chance's 1288.

He's a HR hitter,with a low average, and not enough other stats to make up the difference.

Are you capable of making an argument that cites actual numbers rather than just vaguely hints at them? What other stats "aren't enough"? He had a .394 career OBP. That's better than Joe Morgan had. On the career offensive WAR leaderboard, he's right in between two HOFers, Johnny Bench and Jesse Burkett. His adjusted OPS+ is better than Mays'. He's on the top 40 in career walks.

I just dont think being a better version of dave kingman is enough to get in.

You were originally attempting to make the case that he wasn't even a better version of Dave Kingman.

 

I confused Chance with Tinker and Evers, Oops. . .

[The Man Known as Dan]

If you are saying he shouldn't get in because of steroids, fine, then tell me when Ricky Henderson is kicked out of the Hall, because there is no fucking way you can convince me he wasn't a user.

[Kuetsar]

If you are saying he shouldn't get in because of steroids, fine, then tell me when Ricky Henderson is kicked out of the Hall, because there is no fucking way you can convince me he wasn't a user.

I'm not opposed to that. . .though for some reason we care alot more about HR's than SB's so Lou Brock and Cobb are steaming. . . .

[OSJ]

My argument was that era and steroids included he was extremely similar, and given those advantages, perhaps he's a little better but not much. You said he's a better version of Kingman, and I conceded the point .

Here's those stat by the way, career hits are 1626, which if inducted, would put him between Rizzuto and Buck ewing, below Tinker, Evers, cochrane, Greenberg and even Rick Ferrell. By the way that's would be good for 135th place among hall of famers. Now for doubles, which for a power hitter should be high right?  No. just 252 for him, good for 133rd place and measured against hall of famers, would have him sandwiched between Joe gordon and Tinker.  RBI, 45th place amongst HOF, between jim Bottomly and Robin Yount.  His 1167 runs? Good for 100th place between Chuck Klein and Billy Herman. Games played would be 1874, good for 103rd, between kiki cuyler and Bobby Doer. His 62.0 War? Would put him at  74th place , between Home run Baker and Jackie Robinson. No speed to speak of at all.

 

Now for those stats that benefit him. 1317 BB's which put him at 23rd place, very respectable, between Murray and Luke Appling.  His 1596 strikeouts would put him at 9th highest, put between WInfield and Mccovey, not a disgraceful place given the sluggers in the top ten. His BA is 153rd, tied with Jocko Conlon and one point above reggie Jackson. His .394 OBP, good for 37th, tied with Cap Anson and Frank Chance. His career .588 slugging puts him at 6th place, between Greenberg and Dimaggio. his hrs of course are good for 5th place between Killebrew and frank Robinson.  .982 OPS, puts him at 6th, between Hornsby and Mantle. 12 All Star games out of 16 seasons is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

 

He hits HRs at a titantic clip, and slugged the ball. If that one skill or two depends on semantics. His career levels at all other accumulated stats put him at very low levels. Lest I be accused of cherry picking these stats, they are from baseball-reference.com, and I simply compared his levels vs hall of famer level. I contend that the HRs are not nearly as impressive as it would appear, given the lowered mound, dilution of pitching from expansion, and the fact that he's an admitted steroid user. For me that's not good enough to make the hall of fame, and not a completely unfair comparison to Dave Kingman. If you want to put him in with sosa to celebrate 1998, that's a different argument to me, and not a compelling one, for me at least seeing at least part of that achievement came from a bottle.

 

To steal a line from "My Cousin Vinnie". "That's a cogent and lucid argument". It just happens to be wrong. Comparing a first basemen to players in all other positions is a mug's game and will occasionally bite you on the ass (Ala McGwire better offensively than Morgan). If you want to compare McGwire, at least compare him to somewhat similar players like Kiner and Greenberg. As I've said before, Big Mac's job was to terrify pitchers and he did that very well indeed.

[elizium]

Talk of Halladay in the other thread got me thinking about Cliff Lee and his chances. I'm curious as to what everyone's thoughts on him are? His peak isn't as high as Doc's and I think he just skirts underneath the HoF line as it stands now. He's 35, so he doesn't have a lot of time left, but if he can be one of those guys with a strong 4 or 5 year end to his career, I think his numbers could be very interesting by the end (sorry Kuetsar, he's not going to have the wins you want. Lol).

 

If you add some context and ignore partial seasons in 02/03 (11 GS) and his 1st full year in 04 (33GS), when he was a young pitcher learning control, his case gets stronger. In those 44 starts, he threw 109 BB...24% of all the walks he's given out in his 12 year career occurred in those first starts.

 

The last 3 years have been especially amazing, since he's gotten comically little run support from the Phillies.

 

I don't think he makes it and I'm fine with that, as he seems like one of those Dave Stieb great, but not great enough types (although Stieb really should have gotten more of a look than he did). With a strong finish to his career, though, who knows?

[Joe Lucia]

Right now, Lee is a pretty solid "no". But I wouldn't count him out quite yet. Even though he's 35, he only has 2000 innings on his arm - not a ton of mileage. As you said, he's been getting better with age, and he's never really had any arm problems - his only DL stints in his career have been for oblique and abdominal strains. He'll definitely be an interesting one to watch going forward

[ChesterCopperpot]

Two Toronto baseball writers (both members of the BBWAA - one himself a HOFer - well Spink Award winner - Bob Elliot) are filling in their HOF ballots live on air on Fan590 in the next 15 minutes

[ChesterCopperpot]

 

edit: DP

[odessasteps]

I was just going to post that.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Dave Perkins picked Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Bonds, Clemons, Piazza, Walker, Morris, Biggio, Bagwell

Bob Elliot had Bonds, Clemons, Kent, Glavine, McGriff, Morris, Maddux, Thomas, Walker, Raines

[Kuetsar]

Dave Perkins picked Glavine, Maddux, Thomas, Bonds, Clemons, Piazza, Walker, Morris, Biggio, Bagwell

Bob Elliot had Bonds, Clemons, Kent, Glavine, McGriff, Morris, Maddux, Thomas, Walker, Raines

Mcgriff? He better be paying back a favor, but still inexcusable. . . 

[odessasteps]

I was more annoyed w Perkins picking Walker over Raines as his 10th because walker is more likely to being in danger of faling off the ballot.

[RIPPA]

Grr....

[RIPPA]

It's another example of how the crowded ballot and the 10 max rule is going to fuck things over

 

The HOF expert dude predicts only Maddux getting in

 

And it is basically due to all the close who are close are splitting their votes and you have people doing dumb shit

[ChesterCopperpot]

You can listen to their reasonings here

 

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/fan590primetimesports/~3/XK6ITWvQcl0/pt_20131216_182545--Prime-Time-Sports---December-16---5pm.mp3