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The Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

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Okay, rather than have several different active(?) threads going on with multiple angles for the same thing...   I'm consolidating.   

One thread for the Hall and all aspects thereof.   If you think Roger Maris (yes) or Mark McGwire (no) deserve to be in the hall, say it here.   If you feel there should be someone thrown out, say it here.   

Wild theories about what constitutes a Hall of Famer?   Here too.  

Thank you drive through. 

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54 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Okay, rather than have several different active(?) threads going on with multiple angles for the same thing...   I'm consolidating.   

One thread for the Hall and all aspects thereof.   If you think Roger Maris (yes) or Mark McGwire (no) deserve to be in the hall, say it here.   If you feel there should be someone thrown out, say it here.   

Wild theories about what constitutes a Hall of Famer?   Here too.  

Thank you drive through. 

I'd make one amendment to your ruling (which otherwise makes perfect sense). I'd suggest that the negative (of which we always keep to about one thread every three or four years) (ie: "Throw the Rascals Out" , should probably maintain its own identity apart from all the positive discussion. For example, the HOF content  that I just posted would go in the regular HOF thread; further discussion about "Reason Five" which leaps with a quickness into "Throw the Rascals Out" territory, should in fact go in "Throw the Rascals Out". Whatta ya think?

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No

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Lord God no.

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On 8/5/2019 at 2:08 AM, OSJ said:

Yeah, Scooter may have been more agile in the field, but Stephens had a cannon for an arm and regularly thumped Rizzuto when it came to assists. There's also the matter of driving in some sixty to eighty more runs every year. I'll take that over a whole boatload of "little things". Yeah, Rizzuto was a fine bunter and to my knowledge  Stephens never bunted, though it begs the question as to why you would ask a guy that has lead the league in HRs once and been consistently in the top ten to bunt? That's akin to asking Yogi Berra to wait for a perfect strike, hell, the man could hit anything vaguely near the plate, the smart money is just giving him the green light to do whatever he wants. I'm not 100% sold on the idea of Stephens as a HOFr, but I sure think that he merits a lot closer of a look than the one and done that he got from the BBWA (which was truly bizarre when you consider that it was mostly the same guys touting him as the best infielder in baseball only a decade earlier. The Rizzuto myth had taken hold and was reflected in the BBWA showing ridiculous groupthink that refuted the conclusions that they had come to a decade earlier by ACTUALLY WATCHING THE GAMES. 

Just making sure here...so, "he does all the little things well" is the BBWAA's code for "this asshole Rizzuto's the Yankees broadcaster. He's using his position to tell everyone his tale of woe for why he's not a Hall of Famer...just put him in so at least we can shut this whiny bastard up so it's possible to watch a Yankees game again, okay?."

Well, that could be why Stephens didn't make it- he died too young to get a job broadcasting, and even if he did the Browns moved to Baltimore so he couldn't get the position!

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13 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Just making sure here...so, "he does all the little things well" is the BBWAA's code for "this asshole Rizzuto's the Yankees broadcaster. He's using his position to tell everyone his tale of woe for why he's not a Hall of Famer...just put him in so at least we can shut this whiny bastard up so it's possible to watch a Yankees game again, okay?."

Well, that could be why Stephens didn't make it- he died too young to get a job broadcasting, and even if he did the Browns moved to Baltimore so he couldn't get the position!

Perfect, simply perfect.  I was thinking that maybe Stephens wasn't bright and articulate enough to hold the position, then I realized  that a major market had no problem handing Dizzy Dean a live mic and to this day the fine people of Chicago are treated to the joy that is "Hawk" Harrelson.

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Posted (edited)
On 12/7/2018 at 10:47 PM, OSJ said:

i;ll Okay, we have lots of decent baseball minds here we touch on this in the HOF thread, but the discussion often gets lost amid other stuff (like who is actually on the ballot, for an example). How about we list our picks for the HOF, I've broken it down into eras that make sense to me, but I'm certainly open to changing that if a valid argument is put forth for doing so. Here's what I came up with:

Inception to 1900

1900-1930 (The deadball era as we know it)

1930-1946 (We lost lots of top stars to service in WWII, that's the reason for the 1946 date)

1946-1970 (I really thought about a cut-off of 1965, I'm open to suggestions on this)

1970 (or 1965) -1995 that's going to cover all the guys who were on bubblegum cards when you were wee ones. 

Obviously, there is going to be some overlap and no where will it be more prominent than guys who started in the late 1980s early 1990s and may have still been playing just a few years ago. Feel free to include such folk. I figure a max of five selections per era should give us plenty of people to talk about. Is this enough breakdowns, too many? Feel free to comment, nothing is set in stone. I just figure this gives us a good chance to bang the drum for our personal favs. 
 

I wanted to chime in on this at some point and finally had some time to do so. I'll divide the eras by how it makes sense to me and go by positions.

1869 to 1892

Setting aside pioneers that are before this era (such as Doc Adams and Jim Creighton among others) and candidates that played in this era but are more candidates for other reasons  (such as Dickey Pearce, Al Reach and Bob Ferguson among others) I've got the following:

C - Charlie Bennett is a deserving candidate and I'm a backer of Cal McVey as well. John Clapp and Jack Rowe are the other possibilities whose careers fall entirely in this era, but fall short for me.

1B - Joe Start once you  add his career before 1869. Dave Orr is a what might have been.

2B - Ross Barnes, Hardy Richardson and Fred Dunlap are worthy candidates. Fred Pfeffer falls short.

SS - Jack Glasscock is a clear miss by the HOF and should be in. I already mentioned Jack Rowe in the catchers' section and the rest whose careers fall within this time frame fall short (since George Wright is already in and Dickey Pearce is more of a pioneer).

3B - Ned Williamson and Ezra Sutton would get my backing. Levi Meyerle falls short for me.

LF - Harry Stovey and Charley Jones are worthy candidates in my opinion. Tip O'Neill, Tom York and Abner Dalrymple fall short.

CF - Paul Hines, George Gore, Pete Browning and Lip Pike are all worthy candidates.

RF - No one. Orator Shafer and Oyster Burns are the best of the lot whose careers are mainly centered in this era but are not close.

P - I'd back Tommy Bond, Bob Caruthers, Tony Mullane and Dick McBride (adding his 1860s career). Jim McCormick, Charlie Buffinton, Silver King and Bobby Mathews are candidates that I'm not sure of yet. Id say no on Will White and Jim Whitney.

There are a few candidates that straddle this era and the first decade of the next one, I'll mention them in the next group.

Edited by El Boricua

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Continuing with the next group.

1893 to 1920:

From when the mound gets moved to its current distance, through the creation of the AL and encompassing the Deadball era, I have the following:

C - No obvious misses, but this a very tough and tricky era to evaluate catchers due to the context of the deadball era (specifically the spitball and other junkball pitches) and evolution of catcher equipment during this time. Candidates like Jack Clements, Duke Farrell and Chief Zimmer are mainly before the full on deadball era, while candidates such as Steve O'Neill and Hank Gowdy have part of their career in the baseball era. Johnny Kling is the best candidate who fall squarely in the deadball era, with Chief Meyers not reaching the ten year requirement. Deacon McGuire has the lengthy career that goes through the first decade of the deadball era. Best candidates to me are Kling and Clements, but need more analysis of the contextual factors for this era.

1B - No obvious misses, best candidates are Ed Konetchy, Fred Tenney and Jack Fournier, but none really sway me (defense may change one's view of Tenney to the best of this bunch). Jake Daubert and Harry Davis are the next best but are out for me.

2B - Cupid Childs would have my backing, the next best would be Del Pratt and Larry Doyle but both would be a no from me. Bill Monroe is a possibility, but there is a lack of information to make a solid determination on his candidacy.

SS - Bill Dahlen is a clear miss and should be in. Grant Johnson is someone who should be in as well. After that, the best candidates are likely Art Fletcher, Roger Peckinpaugh, Donie Bush and Herman Long but they don't clear the bar for me.

3B - I'd likely back Heinie Groh, but there's no real stand out candidates from a group that includes, Larry Gardner, Bill Bradley, Lave Cross, Denny Lyons, Arlie Latham and Art Devlin. i guess it depends on what defensive evaluation you use. Tommy Leach is a possibility if you place him as a 3B, but it will depend on how you value his defense.  Heinie Zimmerman may have been a possibility if he hadn't gotten banned and had his career cut short. Carlos Moran is a possibility pending more examination of his career.

LF - I'd back Sherry Magee. Bobby Veach and Jimmy Sheckard will depend on how you evaluate their defense. Mike (Elmer) Smith and George Burns fall short for me.

CF - No clear misses, with some candidates depending on how you evaluate their defense. I'd say that you could evaluate a group consisting of Tommy Leach, Mike Griffin, Fielder Jones, Cy Seymour, Jimmy Ryan, George Van Haltren and maybe Roy Thomas and Clyde Milan. Dummy Hoy has his backers but for other reasons than his play. Bill Lange and Mike Donlin are the two great what ifs. Spottswood Poles falls short for me at this time.

RF - Joe Jackson is banned or else he would be a clear miss. The other other candidates I could see considering are Gavvy Cravath and Mike Tiernan.

P - There's no one I'd say is an obvious miss (setting aside Eddie Cicotte since he's banned). You could evaluate a group that contains Babe Adams, Wilbur Cooper, Jack Powell, Al Orth. Jack Stivetts, Nap Rucker and Hippo Vaughn, but no sure misses there (Babe Adams is probably the best candidate of this group, but I'm not sold on him). Eustaquio Pedroso may be a possibility but again would need more examination.

Not as many clear misses as the previous group, then again, the nineteenth century ash always been bungled by the HOF since it started its elections so there should be more clear misses there.

Again, there are few candidates that straddle this era and the next one, I'll mention them in the next group.

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Posted (edited)

Continuing with the next groups.

1921-1940

So encompassing the two decades of the liveball era, I've got the following:

C - Wally Schang straddles the last part of the deadball era and is the only candidate not in worth considering at catcher for this era.

1B - No one, best candidates are Joe Judge and Dolph Camilli and they miss for me (although Camilli is interesting when you consider the PCL and WW2). 

2B - No one, best candidates are Buddy Myer, Max Bishop and Lonny Frey and they all miss for me. Not sure if George Scales or Rev Cannady make the cut, need more info to evaluate them fairly.

SS - I would support Dobie Moore and likely Dick Lundy, am left wondering how good Pedro Cepeda was. MLB wise there is no one, best candidate is Dick Bartell and that is a no.

3B - I would support Stan Hack and it's a shame Harlond Clift got injured. John Beckwith is a possibility, leaning yes for me. After this, Jimmie Dytkes and Willie Kamm are the next best MLB candidates and they are a definite no for me.

LF - Bob Johnson is a good candidate. Ken Williams falls short.  Need more info on Hurley McNair.

CF - No MLB candidates that are obvious, only Wally Berger could be a possibility if you value peak and give PCL credit since his career was cut short by injury. Not sure about Alejandro Oms and Lazaro Salazar, need further evaluation from me.

RF - No MLB candidates, best is Babe Herman and he misses with me. Need more info on Heavy Johnson and Rap Dixon,  and Chino smith is a what if.

P - I'd back Wes Ferrell and Urban Shocker, with Jack Quinn also a possibility. Dick Redding would also be someone i see supporting, but need to evaluate if another NgL pitcher from this period makes the grade. Dolf Luque, Carl Mays, Eddie Rommel, Bobo Newsom and George Uhle fall short for me. Lon Warneke's stretches into the WW2 years but also would fall short. I'm undecided on Tommy Bridges.

1941-1960

This era is one of the tricky ones for evaluation since it covers two wars and integration. :

C -Quincy Trouppe probably deserves to go in but falls through the cracks since his career falls post NgL collapse. MLB wise there is no one that I'd support, your best remaining candidates are Smoky Burgess and Walker Cooper.

1B - I would actually support Gil Hodges. After that are guys like Mickey Vernon, Ted Kluszweski, Frank McCormick and Phil Cavaretta who are a no from me. Luke Easter is such a mystery box to evaluate properly.

2B - No obvious candidates. Best possibilities are the group of Gil McDougald, Eddie Stanky, Jim Gilliam and Bobby Avila, all with truncated careers due to different reasons and a re a no from me. Marvin Williams is a possibility, need more info to evaluate him.

SS - Vern Stephens is the best possibility and I'm undecided on him Guys like Al Dark and Johnny Pesky need war credit to make them viable candidates. Marty Marion is someone that gets mentioned as a candidate by some but he's a no for me. I'd be remiss if i didn't give Cecil Travis at least a mention. Bus Clarkson is a possibility, need more info to evaluate him.

3B - Ken Boyer is a definite support and I'd also back Bob Elliott. A shame Al Rosen started later than he should have and then got hurt.

LF - Minnie Miñoso is also a clear miss by the HOF and should be in. Charlie Keller is an interesting possibility once WW2 credit is considered.

CF - No clear misses. Dom Dimaggio is in the gray area if you factor in PCL and WW2 credit. Shame about Pete Reiser.

RF - No candidates for me, Bill Nicholson falls short and Tommy Henrich needs WW2 credit to be viable. Tommy Holmes needs IL credit to be considered.

P - I'd support Billy Pierce and Don Newcombe if you factor in his NgL playing days plus time missed due to Korea. Bucky Walters is someone I'm undecided on.  Dizzy Trout and Mel Harder fall short. There may be a worthy NgL pitcher candidate but need to examine them more closely.

 

 

Edited by El Boricua

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Everyone sleeps on Chris von der Ahe (look him up). Basically the Steinbrenner/Veeck/Finley of his time.

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21 minutes ago, Pete said:

Everyone sleeps on Chris von der Ahe (look him up). Basically the Steinbrenner/Veeck/Finley of his time.

Agreed. The posts I'm making are focusing on players, but yes he's an overlooked executive/owner candidate. I'd add Al Reach, Bob Ferguson and Jim Mutrie as other overlooked executive/owner/manager/combination candidates from the post-1869 to 1900 era. There's quite  a few pioneers from before this that also should be considered such as Adams, Pearce, Creighton, Leggett, Pidgeon, etc.

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I'd normally divide the next batch into two groups (1961-1977ish as Expansion Era 1 and from 1977 to 1993 as Second expansion era) but I'll comment as a large group focused on 1961-1987 in order to match up with the HOF Era Committee time frames.

1961-1987

This group includes the players of the expansion era, the second deadball era of the 60s and the introduction of the DH.

C - I support Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson and Bill Freehan. Joe Torre as manager but I'd also say he would deserve it as a player. Don't know what to make of Gene Tenace due to how he divided his time between catcher and first base. Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Lance Parrish are the next group of candidates and are a no from me at this time.

1B - Keith Hernandez is a yes for me. Norm Cash is in the gray area and the next candidates would be Boog Powell and Steve Garvey who are a no.

2B - Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker are a definite yes, Willie Randolph is someone i could also support. After them are Davey Lopes and Frank White but they are a no.

SS - No clear misses, but there is a group of candidates that have there backers and also have their demerits: Bert Campaneris, Jim Fregosi, Dave Concepcion, Maury Wills and Mark Belanger.

3B - There's quite a group of potential candidates here: Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Dick Allen, Sal Bando, Darrell Evans, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah. I'd support Nettles and Allen, not sure on the rest. Evans pulls ahead of the remaining candidates due to his years at 1B and DH,  but  not sure on him. Bell and Bando depend on how you view their defense..

LF - Pete Rose is banned or else he'd be a clear miss. Other than him, no candidate I would go for with the best being Jose Cruz, George Foster, Roy White and Frank Howard.

CF - No candidate that blows me away, although there are a lot that have their backers: Jimmy Wynn, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeño, Chet Lemon, Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver  and Amos Otis. Lot of defensive standouts as welt with Curt Flood (who probably should be considered for his pioneering efforts), Paul Blair, Willie Wilson and Garry Maddox. Out of all of them i have a soft spot for Dale Murphy, but can't quite go for backing him.

RF - I'd support Dwight Evans and maybe Reggie smith. Bobby Bonds is in the gray area and am undecided on him. There's the group of Rocky Colavito, Tony Oliva and Rusty staub who don't add much post age 32 (well, Staub adds bulk but not any prime meat). Dave Parker has that hideous five year run ion what should have been his prime, if not for that he'd be a contender for me. Jack clark does well ont he value metrics but is a no for me. Roger Maris needed a year or two more like his 1960 and 1961 seasons.

P - I'd support Luis Tiant, Tommy John and possibly Jim Kaat. Rick Reuschel does very well on the value metrics, but not really convinced on backing him since I suspect there's some illusion due to all of the adjustments that the value metrics make for him. Mickey Lolich, Vida Blue, Ron Guidry, Larry Jackson, Jerry Koosman, Wilbur Wood, and Frank Tanana all miss for me. Reliever wise there is no one that I'd support, although John Hiller, Dan Quisenberry, Kent Tekulve and Sparky Lyle are the best candidates.

DH - No worthy candidates although Don Baylor and Hal McRae are the best of this time frame.

1988-2006

Going with the Today's Era time frame and through 2006 to match the end point for the next time they meet in 2021 to elect the 2022 class. During this time frame the wild card gets introduced, there's an offensive explosion and testing for enhancers begins. I'll add some of the more recent candidates that have fallen off the ballot as well.

C -Jorge Posada and Jason Kendall are the best candidates not elected, could be convinced to support either of them although I'm more partial to Posada.

1B - I would support Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Fred McGriff. Undecided on Will Clark. John Olerud is a sneaky good candidate but falls short for me.  Have a soft spot for Carlos Delgado but falls short. Don Mattingly got injured and Mark Grace started a bit late to be in the Olerud sphere.

2B - No clear misses, although a shame about Chuck Knoblauch.

SS - No clear candidates I would support, with Nomar Garciaparra, Miguel Tejada and Tony Fernandez being the best of them.

3B - No clear stand outs, with Robin Ventura and Matt Williams being the best candidates. Could be swayed on either of them with a convincing argument.

LF - No clear candidates, Albert Belle has the peak but not the career bulk. Luis Gonzalez and Lance Berkman are the best of the rest. The value mtreics love Tony Phillips but I'm not sold on him.

CF - I'd support Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton and Bernie Williams. Johnny Damon and Brett Butler are the next best but a no for me. Eric Davis is a melancholy what if.

RF - No candidates I would support, with the best being Brian Giles (a value metric candidate), Jose Canseco, Darryl Strawberry and maybe Juan Gonzalez if you're into hardware and homers.

P - Some interesting pitcher candidates, with Kevin Brown, David Cone and  Dave Stieb being the one's I'd probably support. Other interesting candidates are Bret Saberhagen, Orel Hershiser, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Appier, Chuck Finley and Jamie Moyer. Johan Santana has the peak but lacks career bulk. Reliever wise there are no candidates I would support, John Franco is probably the best candidate of them. 

DH - No worthy candidates with Brian Downing and Chili Davis being the best of the unelected from this time frame.

2007-2020

Finally, candidates still on the ballot or upcoming eligibles.

C - I'd support Joe Mauer when he becomes eligible.

1B - Todd Helton probably belongs in but not completely sold. Jason Giambi and Mark Teixeira are a no for me.

2B - I lean yes to Jeff Kent, but could be convinced otherwise. Undecided on Chase Utley.

SS - Not an Omar Vizquel backer. Derek Jeter is a sure thing. Alex Rodriguez should have been a sure thing but he's got his issues (although I would out him in).  Jimmy Rollins falls short for me.

3B - Scott Rolen should be in. Adrian Beltre is a yes. David Wright is just on the borderline of me saying no.

LF - Barry Bonds and Manny Ramirez should be in.

CF - Andruw Jones depends on how you view his defense and how much weight it carries for his candidacy. Torii Hunter is a no. Carlos Beltran is a yes.

RF - Larry walker, Sammy Sosa and Gary Sheffield should be in. Not sold on Bobby Abreu. Ichiro is a yes once he's eligible.

P - Roger Clemens and Curt Schilling should be in. I could see Andy Pettitte making it eventually. I'm ambivalent on Billy Wagner, if he goes in fine but not really behind him. Upcoming candidates Tim Hudson and Mark Buehrle I'd lean no on. Joe Nathan and Francisco Rodriguez are a no.

DH - David Ortiz should be elected when he gets on the ballot.

And with that I'm done with the potential candidates. Comments welcome.

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First off, I'd like to commend El Boricua for two of the most thoughtful and comprehensive posts that this board has ever seen. Should probably be stickied as an example of how to do it. 

I'm going to start by passing up the pre-1920 candidates, my sweetspot sort of begins with post-WWI, to present. Further, I'm sort of with Bill James on the players of that time, we can't really honor them because we don't remember them, for that matter, anyone who ever saw them is dead now. So what are we honoring, a line of statistics?  I can tell from the stats that Gavvy Cravath must have been exciting to watch, but I wasn't there, and neither was anyone else alive today.

Dolph Camili is an interesting case, you could make the argument that at the time the PCL was every bit as good as the Majors and I'm not sure that I'd disagree. I know that my parents, aunts and uncles and grand-parents all raved about him. I don't think he belongs in anything but the PCL HOF, but he was a fantastic player by all accounts.

Stan Hack and Bob Johnson are very curious oversights, both seem like no-brainers to me.

Vern Stephens, okay I'll admit it I lose sleep thinking about Vern Stephens and whether he belongs or not. The knocks are short career, and an apparent fondness for the bottle, (which in no way impeded his performance.) The pluses are obvious, for a decade he was the best shortstop in the AL and no one else was even close, fuck a bunch of Scooter Rizzuto, Stephens was way better at defense with his cannon arm and he hit like Ted Williams. Look at those stats, and the dude was a fucking shortstop! What is hard to reconcile is that the very same BBWA who lauded him as the best SS in the game didn't throw him a single vote for the HOF, makes very little sense to me unless we write it off as the myth of Scooter taking hold.

Moving along, that Ken Boyer isn't in isn't just a mistake, it's rude. Same with Minoso. I'm not 100% on Wes Ferrell or Urban Shocker, but both did enough to merit further discussion.

Gil Hodges, one of my favorite players that I maybe only saw a time or two when I was five or six years-old. I've been round and round on this forever, Hodges memory is treated as though he WERE a HOFr, (try buying some of his cards from his playing days), arguably the nicest man to ever play baseball, Hodges was the poster boy for the big slow white dude with the atomic bat in the mold of Jimmie Foxx (though XX was much better in every possible way). Was he a HOFr? I wrestle with this constantly, I've written essays lauding him as a serious omission, and I've written essays torpedoing the pro-arguments. What we have was a player who went from great to very good to jumping off a cliff and then a decade of mostly mediocrity as a manager. I don't count the Miracle Mets for much, flukes happen. I think now that I've mellowed with age, I could easily be persuaded that Gil Hodges belongs, if for nothing else, being an absolute credit to his species. 

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On 8/28/2019 at 11:05 AM, El Boricua said:

I support Ted Simmons, Thurman Munson and Bill Freehan. Joe Torre as manager but I'd also say he would deserve it as a player. Don't know what to make of Gene Tenace due to how he divided his time between catcher and first base. Darrell Porter, Jim Sundberg and Lance Parrish are the next group of candidates and are a no from me at this time.

I'm with you 100% on Simmons, Freehan, & Torre. Torre deserved it as a player, but at least he's in now. To my mind, and he was one of my favorite players, Munson simply didn't do enough, nor would he had he lived. He was already falling off a cliff offensively. I watched Gene  Tenace's whole career and he's a clear "no" despite being hell on wheels in the WS.

1B - Keith Hernandez is a yes for me. Norm Cash is in the gray area and the next candidates would be Boog Powell and Steve Garvey who are a no.

Keith may have been the very best defensive 1B ever, but what does that really mean? Could he get to balls that Willie McCovey and Fred McGriff couldn't? Hard to really say, I like to see more offense from a 1B than what Hernandez produced, but he remains an interesting case. I would support McGriff going in first, I don't care if Keith may have been a little bit better defensively, you have to do an awful lot to make up a deficit of 350 HRs.

Norm Cash was one of my favorite players when I was a kid, but he belongs at the head table in the Hall of the Very Good.

2B - Bobby Grich and Lou Whitaker are a definite yes, Willie Randolph is someone i could also support. After them are Davey Lopes and Frank White but they are a no.

I'm with you on all of this

SS - No clear misses, but there is a group of candidates that have there backers and also have their demerits: Bert Campaneris, Jim Fregosi, Dave Concepcion, Maury Wills and Mark Belanger.

None of these guys get in without a ticket.

3B - There's quite a group of potential candidates here: Graig Nettles, Buddy Bell, Dick Allen, Sal Bando, Darrell Evans, Ron Cey and Toby Harrah. I'd support Nettles and Allen, not sure on the rest. Evans pulls ahead of the remaining candidates due to his years at 1B and DH,  but  not sure on him. Bell and Bando depend on how you view their defense..

I waver back and forth on Nettles and Evans, it's those damn batting averages... I know, they both produced a ton of runs despite that, but still, their BAs aren't just low, they are gawdawful.

LF - Pete Rose is banned or else he'd be a clear miss. Other than him, no candidate I would go for with the best being Jose Cruz, George Foster, Roy White and Frank Howard.

CF - No candidate that blows me away, although there are a lot that have their backers: Jimmy Wynn, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeño, Chet Lemon, Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy, Al Oliver  and Amos Otis. Lot of defensive standouts as welt with Curt Flood (who probably should be considered for his pioneering efforts), Paul Blair, Willie Wilson and Garry Maddox. Out of all of them i have a soft spot for Dale Murphy, but can't quite go for backing him.

I liked Vada Pinson as a little kid, he and Frank Robinson were just a deadly one-two punch for the Reds, but he falls short. As I Braves fan I'd like to support Dale Murphy as he seems to be a really decent guy, trouble is, he went from best player in the game to just another guy within a five year span; that's not a HOFr.

RF - I'd support Dwight Evans and maybe Reggie smith. Bobby Bonds is in the gray area and am undecided on him. There's the group of Rocky Colavito, Tony Oliva and Rusty staub who don't add much post age 32 (well, Staub adds bulk but not any prime meat). Dave Parker has that hideous five year run ion what should have been his prime, if not for that he'd be a contender for me. Jack clark does well ont he value metrics but is a no for me. Roger Maris needed a year or two more like his 1960 and 1961 seasons.

See my Keltner list and Tabe's comments for Dwight Evans, a fantastic player who doesn't belong in the HOF. Roger Maris was a hell of a lot better than people give him credit for but he still misses. Had Dave Parker not been so fond of the Peruvian Marching Powder he'd be in.

 

P - I'd support Luis Tiant, Tommy John and possibly Jim Kaat. Rick Reuschel does very well on the value metrics, but not really convinced on backing him since I suspect there's some illusion due to all of the adjustments that the value metrics make for him. Mickey Lolich, Vida Blue, Ron Guidry, Larry Jackson, Jerry Koosman, Wilbur Wood, and Frank Tanana all miss for me. Reliever wise there is no one that I'd support, although John Hiller, Dan Quisenberry, Kent Tekulve and Sparky Lyle are the best candidates.

I'm with ya on this, but let me just say that before he threw his arm out, Frank Tanana was a hell of a pitcher. Back in the day my buddies and I were going to see the Mariners/Angels, we knew the Friday starter was Nolan Ryan and Saturday would be Frank Tanana, we bought tickets for Saturday, that's how good he was.

 

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1988-2006

Going with the Today's Era time frame and through 2006 to match the end point for the next time they meet in 2021 to elect the 2022 class. During this time frame the wild card gets introduced, there's an offensive explosion and testing for enhancers begins. I'll add some of the more recent candidates that have fallen off the ballot as well.

C -Jorge Posada and Jason Kendall are the best candidates not elected, could be convinced to support either of them although I'm more partial to Posada.

Posada has the rings but not the individual stats. Almost a Rizzuto case, the Yankees did well with him but probably would have done nearly as well without him.

1B - I would support Rafael Palmeiro, Mark McGwire and Fred McGriff. Undecided on Will Clark. John Olerud is a sneaky good candidate but falls short for me.  Have a soft spot for Carlos Delgado but falls short. Don Mattingly got injured and Mark Grace started a bit late to be in the Olerud sphere.

I'm with you on this all the way including being undecided on Will the Thrill. Wish he'd played a couple more seasons and it wouldn't even be a discussion, but he didn't...

2B - No clear misses, although a shame about Chuck Knoblauch.

Poor Chuckie...

SS - No clear candidates I would support, with Nomar Garciaparra, Miguel Tejada and Tony Fernandez being the best of them.

Agreed

3B - No clear stand outs, with Robin Ventura and Matt Williams being the best candidates. Could be swayed on either of them with a convincing argument.

Matt Williams was and is one of my favorite players. In point of fact his hard-nosed style of play probably kept him from compiling HOF stats. Crazy bastard played every game like it was game 7 of the WS and it cost him in injuries.

LF - No clear candidates, Albert Belle has the peak but not the career bulk. Luis Gonzalez and Lance Berkman are the best of the rest. The value mtreics love Tony Phillips but I'm not sold on him.

Albert Belle isn't just a HOFr, he's a no-brainer.

CF - I'd support Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton and Bernie Williams. Johnny Damon and Brett Butler are the next best but a no for me. Eric Davis is a melancholy what if.

I'd move Lofton and Williams to "just-miss" territory

RF - No candidates I would support, with the best being Brian Giles (a value metric candidate), Jose Canseco, Darryl Strawberry and maybe Juan Gonzalez if you're into hardware and homers.

When Brian Giles is the best candidate it's just time to move on.

P - Some interesting pitcher candidates, with Kevin Brown, David Cone and  Dave Stieb being the one's I'd probably support. Other interesting candidates are Bret Saberhagen, Orel Hershiser, Dwight Gooden, Kevin Appier, Chuck Finley and Jamie Moyer. Johan Santana has the peak but lacks career bulk. Reliever wise there are no candidates I would support, John Franco is probably the best candidate of them. 

Santana belongs in, short career or not, otherwise we're in agreement.

DH - No worthy candidates with Brian Downing and Chili Davis being the best of the unelected from this time frame.

During his career I was collecting autographed cards of the 300-HR club, Chili was the only guy that refused to sign. Fucking asshole. The only ones I'm missing today are either dead guys that are too expensive, guys that made the mark after 2000 and Chili Fucking Davis.

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