The Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

[Ryan]

Mariano doesn't belong in, not for any statistical or logistical or personal reasons. It's just all Yankees should be kicked out and forced into their own HOF for ever being a Yankee. It's the right thing to do. Buy my book if you agree.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

10 hours ago, CSC said:

100% or not you can never take this away from us all.  

Yes, but by blowing this save, Mariano saved former teammate Enrique Wilson's life.

In 2001, he was scheduled to be on American Airlines Flight 587 that crashed in a New York City neighborhood. However, when the Yankees lost the 2001 World Series to the Arizona Diamondbacks and there was no Yankees victory parade, Wilson flew home a few days earlier and was not on the flight.

Advantage Mariano.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

7 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Amused the next target of HOF worthiness appears to be ... Bobby Abreu ?

I'd feel safe betting Jeter is the only one going in next year.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Again,  Andruw Jones has a career OPS slightly higher than Baines. He also happens to have 10 gold gloves and is one of the best CF of the last 30 years. How is he not a HOF?

[Nice Guy Eddie]

4 hours ago, Ryan said:

Mariano doesn't belong in, not for any statistical or logistical or personal reasons. It's just all Yankees should be kicked out and forced into their own HOF for ever being a Yankee. It's the right thing to do. Buy my book if you agree.

Just give in already and join me with the Bleacher Creatures. You know you want to.

[Ryan]

Yankee Stadium would burn to the ground before that ever happened. Come, join the Brew Crew for some crappy beer and occasionally good baseball.

[Ryan]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Yes, but by blowing this save, Mariano saved former teammate Enrique Wilson's life.

In 2001, he was scheduled to be on American Airlines Flight 587 that crashed in a New York City neighborhood. However, when the Yankees lost the 2001 World Series to the Arizona Diamondbacks and there was no Yankees victory parade, Wilson flew home a few days earlier and was not on the flight.

Advantage Mariano.

A coincidence that Rivera attributes to divine intervention because his god apparently wanted all the other ones to die instead. It's fun how that works.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

34 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Yankee Stadium would burn to the ground before that ever happened. Come, join the Brew Crew for some crappy beer and occasionally good baseball.

I don't dislike the Brewers. I'd go to a Brewers game in my Mariano jersey.

I'm not touching the religious stuff. That's as bad as discussing politics and race issues.

 

[Beech27]

9 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Again,  Andruw Jones has a career OPS slightly higher than Baines. He also happens to have 10 gold gloves and is one of the best CF of the last 30 years. How is he not a HOF?

Scrolling around twitter, it seems he's one of those guys cursed with "easy speed", covering lots of ground without making it look hard enough (the anti-Jeter); and he didn't hit a megaton of home runs relative to his era (though he hit plenty). Still, 7.5% is insane--but at least he didn't fall right off like Edmunds and Lofton did. I expect he and Scott Rolen will make substantial jumps, and one or both will follow up Larry Walker as the next cause célèbre among the SABR-set now that Edgar and Mussina are in. 

[odessasteps]

It's funny how things like Gold Gloves and ASG appearances are often derided at the time, but then later become barometers when evaluating someone's career in total. 

(General observation, not picking on Jones)

[RIPPA]

8 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

It's funny how things like Gold Gloves and ASG appearances are often derided at the time, but then later become barometers when evaluating someone's career in total. 

You are trying to get me to rant about the Pro Bowl aren't you

[Beech27]

13 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

It's funny how things like Gold Gloves and ASG appearances are often derided at the time, but then later become barometers when evaluating someone's career in total. 

(General observation, not picking on Jones)

That's true. I primarily think it's a useful metric to evaluate what sportwriters thought at the time, since sportswriters are evaluating them now. It's interesting to see cases, like Jeter, where the analytics and awards clash; and it's interesting too in cases like Vizquel and Jones, where dWAR says they actually were equal to their reputation. (I think they're second-best and best SS and CF, respectively, by that metric.)

[odessasteps]

8 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

You are trying to get me to rant about the Pro Bowl aren't you

Are the guys who end up being the 3rd or 4th replacement get credit for a Pro Bowl on their resume? 

I presume for the NFL, making the all-pro team is a better indicator. 

[EdA]

25 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Are the guys who end up being the 3rd or 4th replacement get credit for a Pro Bowl on their resume? 

I presume for the NFL, making the all-pro team is a better indicator. 

Yep and yep.  Same with MLB and the guy who replaced the guy who replaced the guy who...etc.  

For baseball it's generally best to gauge reputation on the major award vote placement rather than GG or AS appearance - but then, we know award vote results are dicey as all get out too.

 

[EdA]

41 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

That's true. I primarily think it's a useful metric to evaluate what sportwriters thought at the time, since sportswriters are evaluating them now. It's interesting to see cases, like Jeter, where the analytics and awards clash; and it's interesting too in cases like Vizquel and Jones, where dWAR says they actually were equal to their reputation. (I think they're second-best and best SS and CF, respectively, by that metric.)

Yeah...this is B-Ref's Career Leaders & Records for Defensive WAR.  Vizquel is the 7th SS listed and #9 overall.  Andruw Jones is the top rated OFer at 21 overall.

For reference, Mark Belanger is 2nd overall and wasn't even really considered for the HOF.  Belanger's bat was not THAT much worse that Vizquel's - especially accounting for the wildly different offensive eras. 

I think Vizquel is actually the reverse of Jeter - made flashy plays and had no bat so sportswriters actually thought he was better than what he was.  The question is - why the Vizquel love and Belanger was a one and done?

Then again, I really am not on board with the SABR defensive stats so...ymmv.

[RIPPA]

Here is an example

In 2016 (game played Jan 2017) - the AFC had SIX Quarterbacks (Same thing with the NFC 2012)

And then you had the years were it wasn't AFC/NFC but "Captains pick teams" so it gets unbalanced so one year SEVEN NFC QBs were selected

Plus in baseball when you are required to have every team represented - it skews worthiness

Honestly - lack of ASG/Pro Bowls is more an indicator than any justification for.

To tie it back in - Ted Lilly made TWO All Star Games, never received a vote for a single major award. In 2004 he was Blue Jay rep. In 2009 he was the Cubs rep.

It is embarrassing he was on the ballot.

 

[Beech27]

27 minutes ago, EdA said:

Yeah...this is B-Ref's Career Leaders & Records for Defensive WAR.  Vizquel is the 7th SS listed and #9 overall.  Andruw Jones is the top rated OFer at 21 overall.

For reference, Mark Belanger is 2nd overall and wasn't even really considered for the HOF.  Belanger's bat was not THAT much worse that Vizquel's - especially accounting for the wildly different offensive eras. 

I think Vizquel is actually the reverse of Jeter - made flashy plays and had no bat so sportswriters actually thought he was better than what he was.  The question is - why the Vizquel love and Belanger was a one and done?

Then again, I really am not on board with the SABR defensive stats so...ymmv.

I think Jeter gets a ton of credit for flashy plays--the flip, the dive into the stands, the numerous jump throws--when the consensus now seems to be that he had to make spectacular plays because his range was so poor.

As for Vizquel, he gets a ton of credit for longevity--he had about twice as many at bats as Belanger. 2800 hits and 400 stolen bases aren't as fashionable as they used to be, but counting stats still matter to many voters.

To be clear: I'd vote for Jeter and not Vizquel.

Generally, you're right that defensive metrics have a long way to go, but I still find them worth considering. Is Jones the best defensive CF ever? I have no idea! But that one metric says so isn't nothing.

[EdA]

Yeah.  I have little beef with those who pimp Jones for his glove.  The eye test was pretty much in his favor but I can't cop to saying I saw a ton of Andruw Jones in his prime.

Was Andruw Jones REALLY better than Mays or Tris Speaker or any other CFer who was considered a glove man in his time?  No clue.  And I don't think the advanced d-stats are ever going to be able to rate guys in bygone eras properly.  There's a HUGE recency bias with advanced defensive stats - we know what we know because of things like Statcast that didn't exist even in Jones' prime.  But of course we know enough not to trust the word of old players and sportswriters so...we are where we are.  

But the thing with Andruw Jones v. Vizquel, is that Jones was not hopeless at the plate.  You can throw Scott Rolen and even Jim Edmonds in the mix as well and, if we're going to vote for guys with great defensive reputations, you'd be better off giving more support to Jones and Rolen than Vizquel based on them ALSO having an ability to hit. 

To me, the Vizquel support is a Harold Baines-ian level can of worms that shows we really don't have a clue how to evaluate SS's.  You can go through era by era and find at least 2-3 light-hitting SS's with Gold Glove reps (the aforementioned Belanger, Larry Bowa, Dave Concepcion, etc.) who are not in because...reasons?  Then you have the Pee Wee Reese's and Phil Rizzuto's and Luis Aparicio who are in because...reasons?

In all actuality, Vizquel picked up a reputation for being a glove man early (mostly through flash - the probably unnecessary barehanded plays, especially) and hung around far longer than he probably should have because front offices and people in the media assume defense has to still be there if the guy was a poor hitter.  He kept chugging away to collect some eye-wash stats which...you know...really aren't that good for a guy who played as long as he did.  Along the way the general populace - and media - sort of picked up that he was a defensive wizard because it had been repeated ad nauseam and with that then the talk that he was a sure-fire HOFer. 

I'm not saying Vizquel would be the worst choice for the HOF (no Harold Baines joke here, I promise), I'm just saying there are multiple Omar Vizquel's out there who are not in.  Throwing a vote his way while Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones are rotting on the vine and Jim Edmonds is already off seems criminal to me.

As far as Jeter - the laughable Gold Gloves aside - I don't recall anyone of any worth REALLY considering him a glove man.  Yeah, the ESPN's of the world are dopes and fell for THE FLIP! and THE DIVE! and that jump throw thingie.  But he always was considered a liability with the glove - especially since even Yankee pitchers hated that he could not go to his left.  If not for his bat we would have long ago forgotten all about Captain Dreamboat.  But hey, that was a pretty good bat.

[RIPPA]

RINGS MOTHERFUCKER~!

[EdA]

GIFT BASKETS 4 LIFE!

[Ryan]

The most important metric on selecting someone to the HOF in baseball is whether I liked them or not and have heard of them. After that it's up to OSJ to convince me they were good and not a true Yankee. Richie Sexson is a Yankee at heart to me! Also, he was awful after a few years in Milwaukee.

[Beech27]

56 minutes ago, EdA said:

In all actuality, Vizquel picked up a reputation for being a glove man early (mostly through flash - the probably unnecessary barehanded plays, especially) and hung around far longer than he probably should have because front offices and people in the media assume defense has to still be there if the guy was a poor hitter.  He kept chugging away to collect some eye-wash stats which...you know...really aren't that good for a guy who played as long as he did.  Along the way the general populace - and media - sort of picked up that he was a defensive wizard because it had been repeated ad nauseam and with that then the talk that he was a sure-fire HOFer. 

I'm not saying Vizquel would be the worst choice for the HOF (no Harold Baines joke here, I promise), I'm just saying there are multiple Omar Vizquel's out there who are not in.  Throwing a vote his way while Scott Rolen and Andruw Jones are rotting on the vine and Jim Edmonds is already off seems criminal to me.

This will sound like a joke (and it's not), but I wonder how much Vizquel benefits from his career peak lining up perfectly with the cultural omnipresence of Sportscenter and (especially) Baseball Tonight? He was a fixture on top plays and basically Mr. Web Gem. For all the writers in their 30's and 40's, that could introduce a significant degree of nostalgia-driven bias, where they might otherwise be more likely to lament his lack of a bat. Older writers, as you've noted, have at least sometimes proven themselves happy to vote for an all-glove shortstop.

The problem with that theory, of course, is that Edmonds, Rolen, and Jones should also benefit from that potential phenomenon, and don't seem to have. My guess would be that people are more likely to accept light hitting shortstops than even very, very good offensive production from positions where all-time great is more often the standard--not all pure glove shortstops get in, but certainly more have than those other positions.

(I'd like to have seen Edmonds and Lofton stick around, and I could be swayed either way. Jones and Rolen, for me, are in.)

[Nice Guy Eddie]

1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

RINGS MOTHERFUCKER~!

1996 AL ROY

2000 All-Star Game MVP

2000 World Series MVP

.310 lifetime average

.321 World Series average

3,456 hits (6th all time, most of any shortstop)

14x All Star

5x AL GG

5x AL Silver Slugger award

2x Hank Aaron award winner

Maybe almost as important to the voters, Jeter never had any off the field issues, no steroid suspicion, and he was always good with media.

I don't think he'll get 100%, but that doesn't matter to me. I'm happy as long as he goes in, and he's a no doubter for next year.

[Contentious C]

5 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Maybe almost as important to the voters, Jeter never had any off the field issues

Other than Googling "Derek Jeter herpes tree".

[RIPPA]

I do enjoy that Eddie did feel the need to convince us Jeter belongs in the HOF