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The Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

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Outside the depressingly obvious, is there any good reason why Clemens gets more votes than Bonds?

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HA! ESPN’s article literally said the exact opposite of Pos as they were basically “yeah - everyone ignored Morgan”

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22 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Outside the depressingly obvious, is there any good reason why Clemens gets more votes than Bonds?

I've said this before and I'll say it again: from 1985-1996 I probably met every player in the National League (and quite a few in the American League). If Nolan Ryan, Tim Raines, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly were the nicest guys I ever met Barry Bonds was literally the exact opposite. He was the biggest asshole I have ever encountered. That's the main reason people dogpile on him more than others: the guy is a jerk, even moreso than The Rocket and that's saying something.

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@sabremike: My experience with Bonds was a little different; I'd describe him as cold, aloof, definitely not a people person; but totally professional. Being an arrogant bastard myself, I have little problem with other people being arrogant and when you're the very best ever at a given thing, you've certainly earned the right to be arrogant. You'll have a lot more fans if you choose to be kind, but it's your decision.

Now on to the HOF picks:

Chipper Jones - The BBWA have always had a hard time figuring out how to evaluate 3rd Base. Is it a power hitting position or is it a defensive position? Is it RBI/POWER or is it SPEED! GLOVE!? You know how you get past that bullshit? Be Chipper Fucking Jones! 

Vlad Guerrero - The Andre Dawson of his day, thankfully they didn't make him wait as long as Dawson. That wasn't just stupid, it was rude.

Jim Thome - As I've said, hit the way that you expected Ted Kluzewski to hit (Big Ted was a 1950s power hitter who had to slice the sleeves of his uniform as they were too tight on his bulging biceps. If he'd gone into pro-wrestling in the off-season it would have surprised no one. Jim Thome was a joy to watch at the plate (as long as you weren't the opposing pitcher). If you were the opposing pitcher, I'm reminded of the story as to why Lefty Gomez only wore his glasses for one inning. "After the first two batters, I wiped my glasses off and looked toward home plate and saw Jimmie Foxx standing there. Well, I decided that I never wanted to see anything like that again, so I took off the glasses and put them in my pocket." Pitchers doing the same thing upon seeing Jim Thome at the plate could hardly be blamed for taking similar action. 

Trevor Hoffman - Now I'm going to get some heat for suggesting that people like the IDEA of Trevor Hoffman more than they like Trevor Hoffman HIMSELF. Hear me out, you have a frequently devastating relief pitcher, who plays on a frequently mediocre team that certainly needs all the saves it can gets, a relief pitcher with tremendous charisma who walks out to one of the great hard-rock anthems of all-time. What's not to like? 

Well for starters, Hoffman wasn't a great closer, he  was pretty damn good and also fairly erratic. He's one of those guys that you are fully prepared to rubber-stamp as a bonafide HOFr until you start looking at more advanced, comparative stats and you start to go "hmmm?" Was he the best player at his position? This is a tough one, because no position has changed and evolved so fast as that of the closer. I fully believe with every fiber of my being that Lee Smith belongs in the HOF. However, if I offer you his stats compared to current players you would laugh, and rightly so. Without understanding the context of what he did and when he did it, Lee Smith doesn't look so spectacular. However, I watched him play and I have a pretty good grasp of comparative analysis, and all things considered, every player that makes his living as a reliever should end his nightly prayers with "and God bless Lee Smith!", because without him the position might look far different today. So back to Mr. Hoffman, was he the best player at his position during the time he played? No, he wasn't, maybe the coolest, but not the best. Was he the best player in his league at his position? Yes, some years he was, some years he wasn't. How does he really measure up?

Let's see what Baseball Reference has to say: 

Black Ink = 6 / Avg. HOFr = 40

Gray Ink = 45 / Avg HOFr = 185 (okay, kids this doesn't look very good now, does it?)

Hall of Fame Standards = 19 / Avg HOFr = 50

JAWS = 28.4. 19.6, 28.0 / Avg HOFr = 40.6, 28.2,  34.4 

So here we have a HOF pitcher who does not, by any stretch of the imagination seem to have HOF credentials. I'm not a big fan of their "most comparable player metrics, but it is what it is, and who do you suppose is Trevor Hoffman's most comparable match? Why none other than Lee Smith! In fact, it's when we look at Hoffman's comps that we really get a grasp on just how odd a selection he is... The top ten looks like this:

  1. 1. Lee Smith (896.0)
  2. 2. Francisco Rodriguez (891.6)
  3. 3. Mariano Rivera (883.2)
  4. 4. Jeff Reardon (852.0)
  5. 5. Joe Nathan (847.7)
  6. 6. Roberto Hernandez (837.6)
  7. 7. Bruce Sutter (834.4) *
  8. 8. Doug Jones (825.0)
  9. 9. John Franco (822.9)
  10. 10. Billy Wagner (807.2)

Excuse me if I'm a bit obtuse, but in what universe are John Franco, Doug Jones, Jeff Reardon, and Joe Nathan remotely like Bruce Sutter, Lee Smith, or Mariano Fucking Rivera??? Sutter belongs in the HOF and Smith should have gone in the same year. Mariano Rivera (despite my life-long hatred of the Yankees) is the finest player to ever play the position. No one else is even close. To say that Trevor Hoffman was like Mariano Rivera is akin to saying that Clete Boyer was like Eddie Mathews or that his brother Ken was like Mike Schmidt (actually you can make a case that Ken Boyer belongs in the HOF, it's not a really strong case, but it does at least merit discussion;) Clete on the other hand was an excellent SPEED! GLOVE! man that could hit a little, a very little... The only resemblance to Eddie Mathews is that their prime playing days were in the 1950s and early 1960s and that they played the same position. My pal Marty and I used to fight about who was going to grow up to be Eddie Mathews, I don't recall anyone wanting to grow up to be Clete Boyer. On the other hand,  Ken Boyer was a fine defensive player who hit for average and hit for power, not unlike Mike Schmidt, but there's a little matter of a difference of some 162 HRs and 500 RBis  that's sort of hard to overlook between the two. 

So in the final analysis of Trevor Hoffman, you have a HOFr who doesn't really show any HOF qualifications and whose comparison chart is one of the most random things I've ever seen in a feature that's rightly vilified for some pretty random shit. The only fair conclusion that I can draw is that Hoffman was pretty erratic and as I said, people like the IDEA of Trevor Hoffman disproportionately to the actual player. Now excuse me, I have to go to another board and punt someone around who is claiming that Dale Murphy was a better all-around player than Alan Trammell ... *sighs*

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2 hours ago, sabremike said:

I've said this before and I'll say it again: from 1985-1996 I probably met every player in the National League (and quite a few in the American League). If Nolan Ryan, Tim Raines, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly were the nicest guys I ever met Barry Bonds was literally the exact opposite. He was the biggest asshole I have ever encountered. That's the main reason people dogpile on him more than others: the guy is a jerk, even moreso than The Rocket and that's saying something.

It's not a nice guys hall of fame.  Ty Cobb is in.  

Bonds not being in the hall of fame makes the entire process worthless because none of these people deserve to be in more than the greatest hitter who ever lived.  That being Barry Bonds.  

I'm really happy for Chipper though.  

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Lost in the fake and true stories about Cobb is, all those people he spit on where dying of dehydration at those orphanages.

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Also, I don't think I've ever seen O.G. MARLIN Trevor Hoffman smile.   Even when he's smiling, he's not. 

51gYTJ7YjHL._SY450_.jpg

Also, he looks weird without a beard.  Congrats Trevor!

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10 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

It's not a nice guys hall of fame.  Ty Cobb is in.  

Bonds not being in the hall of fame makes the entire process worthless because none of these people deserve to be in more than the greatest hitter who ever lived.  That being Barry Bonds.  

I'm really happy for Chipper though.  

Oh I agree with you. As terrible a person as he is he would 100% get my vote, I was just explaining why guys won't vote for him. The best part about the PED pearl clutching is that in the old days players popped pills like they were candy to keep going. This of course is largely ignored.

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2 hours ago, El Dragon said:

To be fair, nobody really likes wearing Teal.

The Sharks?

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It's also ignored that half the players in the hall of fame didn't have to play against African Americans or hispanics. Only other whites. Good for you, you did really well against a bunch of out of shape beer swilling country boys.  

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52 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

The Sharks?

And how many Sharks are in the MLBHOF? That's right...

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7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Vlad going in as Angel. :(

I guess he decided being the first Angel was better than being the last Expo

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I love Vlad but that is the shits.

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Vlad or Manny?  I choose Manny.  Vlad was a better fielder, but he may also be the least disciplined great hitter of all time.  

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Vlad was a better fielder but only because Manny was historically bad. Vlad was a terrible fielder. He had 125 errors in his career, including 19 in one year - an astounding number for an outfielder. 

On the other hand, Manny was a much better hitter who had the greatest third of a season since the 40s.

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14 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

It's also ignored that half the players in the hall of fame didn't have to play against African Americans or hispanics. Only other whites. Good for you, you did really well against a bunch of out of shape beer swilling country boys.  

All black players were in shape and hated beer in the old days

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15 hours ago, Death From Above said:

All black players were in shape and hated beer in the old days

No but when you are eliminating black and Hispanic players that means you are definitely watering down the league with people who don't belong 

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17 hours ago, Tabe said:

Vlad was a better fielder but only because Manny was historically bad. Vlad was a terrible fielder. He had 125 errors in his career, including 19 in one year - an astounding number for an outfielder. 

On the other hand, Manny was a much better hitter who had the greatest third of a season since the 40s.

 

I know you shouldn't base this just on things like WAR, but just for a point of reference. fWAR by Outfielders in the last 50 years.

 

Manny Ramirez: 66.4 WAR, 11th best among Outfielders, surrounded by Robin Yount and Tim Raines. As said, horrid defender, but 3rd in wRC+ among the top 30 behind only Bonds and Trout.

Vladimir Guerrero: 54.3 WAR, 29th best among outfielders, surrounded by Mike Trout and Willie Stargell. Notable players ahead of him by fWAR: Bobby Abreu (59.2), Bobby Bonds (57.1), Lance Berkman (56.1), Luis Gonzalez (55.2), Brian Giles (54.9), & 26 year old Mike Trout (54.4)

 

BTW, if Mike Trout retired today, he should be an unquestioned 1st ballot HOFer, cause his career is flat stupid.

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