The Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

[Ryan]

Bags, Rock and Pudge got in.

[ChesterCopperpot]

Looks like Hoffman missed like about 5 votes

[Kuetsar]

2 minutes ago, Ryan said:

Bags, Rock and Pudge got in.

Sounds about right; It will be interesting to see the percentages of everyone else. . . 

[Kuetsar]

Kind of surprised that Pudge was that low, I would have thought he was a no brainer. . did he have PED problems? Other wise WTF?

[Ryan]

People thought he used them and he played in that era, but nothing was tied to him that I recall.

[Ryan]

Only one on that list(that's not new) that dropped is Schilling in terms of percentage. May he continue to drop to spite Tabe, but Edgar will get in to even things out.

Edit: Lee Smith stayed almost exactly the same in his final year. Larry Walker went up a bit. McGriff basically didn't change. Same goes for Jeff Kent. Sheffield went up slightly. Wagner barely changed. Sosa went up very slightly. Posada and Ordonez got a couple pity votes and are gone. Manny got about 24% in his first year, but I don't see him ever getting in.

[Ryan]

Ballots Cast: 442

Needed for Election: 332

 

Votes		Percentage
381	Jeff Bagwell	86.2%
380	Tim Raines	86.0%
336	Ivan Rodriguez	76.0%
327	Trevor Hoffman	74.0%
317	Vladimir Guerrero	71.7%
259	Edgar Martinez	58.6%
239	Roger Clemens	54.1%
238	Barry Bonds	53.8%
229	Mike Mussina	51.8%
199	Curt Schilling	45.0%
151	Lee Smith	34.2%
105	Manny Ramirez	23.8%
97	Larry Walker	21.9%
96	Fred McGriff	21.7%
74	Jeff Kent	16.7%
59	Gary Sheffield	13.3%
45	Billy Wagner	10.2%
38	Sammy Sosa	8.6%
17	Jorge Posada	3.8%
3	Magglio Ordonez	0.7%
2	Edgar Renteria	0.5%
2	Jason Varitek	0.5%
1	Tim Wakefield	0.2%
0	Corey Blake	0.0%
0	Pat Burrell	0.0%
0	Orlando Cabrera	0.0%
0	Mike Cameron	0.0%
0	J.D. Drew	0.0%
0	Carlos Guillen	0.0%
0	Derrek Lee	0.0%
0	Melvin Mora	0.0%
0	Arthur Rhodes	0.0%
0	Freddy Sanchez	0.0%
0	Matt Stairs	0.0%

[sabremike]

So glad Tim Raines got in. As a kid I went to Shea all the time with my dad and we would get there real early to get autographs. From 1985-1996 I probably met about 95% of NL players in that timeframe. Raines (along with Nolan Ryan and Dale Murphy) were THE nicest guys I ever met. They always went out of their way to sign for fans. Nice that this happened for such a great guy.

[Ryan]

But, what of MATT STAIRS? Surely he deserved one vote!

[Serious Darius Bagfelt]

1 hour ago, Ryan said:

People thought h. e used them and he played in that era, but nothing was tied to him that I recall.

He was one of the guys named by Canseco If im not mistaken

[supremebve]

Once again the best baseball player any of us have ever seen is not in the hall of fame.  Bonds, Clemons, Schilling, and Ramirez are better than any of the players who were elected.  Since baseball didn't think it was important enough to test for steroids, I can't blame any of those guys for allegedly taking them.  If any of us were putting together a baseball team with all of the guys on the list, how long would it take for Pudge, Raines, and/or Bagwell to be picked?  Would they be in the top 5? Top 10?

[The Man Known as Dan]

2 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Once again the best baseball player any of us have ever seen is not in the hall of fame.  Bonds, Clemons, Schilling, and Ramirez are better than any of the players who were elected.  Since baseball didn't think it was important enough to test for steroids, I can't blame any of those guys for allegedly taking them.  If any of us were putting together a baseball team with all of the guys on the list, how long would it take for Pudge, Raines, and/or Bagwell to be picked?  Would they be in the top 5? Top 10?

Uh, huh? I welcome any explanation on why Manny Ramirez was better then Jeff Bagwell. Fuck, I don't even think he was better then Larry Walker.

[Ryan]

Manny's outfield play alone may negate every positive WAR he ever had hitting.

[The Man Known as Dan]

For reference sake, if we are going by WAR, players on the ballot in the top 60 since on the ballot in the last 40 years.

Position Players

1. Barry Bonds 164. 4(Should be in, but, you know.)

10. Jeff Bagwell 80.2 (2nd among all 1st Baseman in WAR in that time period, 8 points ahead of Frank Thomas)

19. Ivan Rodriguez 68.9 (Most among all Catchers in the time period. Probably the best Catcher we have ever seen.)

20. Larry Walker 68.7 (Most of any Pure Right Fielder in the last 40 years)

28/29: Manny Ramirez and Tim Raines: 66.4 (Manny was obviously a better hitter, Raines the better defender, with a gigantic boost in baserunning as well)

34: Edgar Martinez 65.5

43: Gary Scheffield

60: Vladimir Guerrero

 

Pitchers

1. Roger Clemens 133.7 (Duh)

5. Mike Mussina 82.2 (Top 5 over a 40 year stretch, and all he's trailing are Clemens, Maddux, Johnson, and Pedro)

7. Curt Schilling 79.8 (Very Very Good, should be HOF, and probably will be if he stops saying the writers who are deciding to put him in should be killed)

 

[The Man Known as Dan]

Also, as for the question, Bagwell would be my No.3 pick behind Bonds and Clemens. Rodriguez would be my No.4 Raines would be about 6 or 7. Manny would be, imo, one step below Raines.

[supremebve]

You guys are crazy.  If I had a choice to go watch Manny Ramirez play or Jeff Bagwell play I'd go see Manny even if it was three times the price.  Manny was one of the best hitters of his generation, and was at his best in the biggest moments.  Manny and Bonds are the only two baseball players who made me stop in my tracks if they were up to bat.  In a sport where being great means you fail 70% of the time, I always believed he was going to do something special every time he stepped in the batter's box.  He was a 12 time all-star and a World Series MVP.  Bagwell should be in, but there is no way he should be in when Manny is not. 

[The Man Known as Dan]

You are changing the criteria of the question as you go. You went from "Manny was a better player then Bagwell" which, no, to "Well I'd pay to watch him play more" which, okay, that's your call. Manny and Bagwell were both amazing hitters, except Manny was an atrocious defensive corner outfielder were as Bagwell was a fantastic defensive 1st Basemen (Easy position or not, he was great there) and also stole 200 bases. 

[supremebve]

10 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

You are changing the criteria of the question as you go. You went from "Manny was a better player then Bagwell" which, no, to "Well I'd pay to watch him play more" which, okay, that's your call. Manny and Bagwell were both amazing hitters, except Manny was an atrocious defensive corner outfielder were as Bagwell was a fantastic defensive 1st Basemen (Easy position or not, he was great there) and also stole 200 bases. 

I honestly think Manny was the better player.  He's 8th all time in OBPS.  Manny was better, for better teams, and rose to the occasion when the pressure was on.  Bagwell was great, Manny at his best was otherworldly.  I think you can tell the story of baseball and not mention Jeff Bagwell, but Manny is part of the story.  He was the MVP of the 2004 World Series, which is going to be talked about forever.  I'd put him in over Bagwell based purely on his play, but add the star power and being the MVP of one of the most historically significant World Series of all time, he is a much better candidate than Bagwell in my eyes.  Once again, Bagwell is someone who should absolutely be in the hall of fame, but Manny Ramirez checks all the boxes except defense.  Bagwell was in the all-star game 4 times, Manny was an all star 12 times. 

[The Man Known as Dan]

Okay then.

22 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I honestly think Manny was the better player.  He's 8th all time in OBPS.  Manny was better, for better teams, and rose to the occasion when the pressure was on.  Bagwell was great, Manny at his best was otherworldly.  I think you can tell the story of baseball and not mention Jeff Bagwell, but Manny is part of the story.  He was the MVP of the 2004 World Series, which is going to be talked about forever.  I'd put him in over Bagwell based purely on his play, but add the star power and being the MVP of one of the most historically significant World Series of all time, he is a much better candidate than Bagwell in my eyes.  Once again, Bagwell is someone who should absolutely be in the hall of fame, but Manny Ramirez checks all the boxes except defense.  Bagwell was in the all-star game 4 times, Manny was an all star 12 times. 

God I hate your argument so much. You don't actually offer stats instead of "gut feeling" and "importance", instead of actually using, you know, actually how good they are at baseball. All you said is "I honestly think Manny was the better player" Okay. Explain. He was a slightly better hitter over his career, but both were amazing. Bagwell was a very good defensive 1st Baseman. Manny is ranked as the 2nd least valuable defender in baseball since 1984. It's why even in years he was putting up a 1.000 OPS in the mid 2000's he was still only putting up 3 WAR seasons. He almost broke defensive metrics he was so bad. 

 

Also, using All-Star game inclusions as a means to explain HOF inductions? The same ones that are fan voted on starters? Okay. How about this as a counter: Years with at least 7.5 fWAR: Jeff Bagwell 4, Manny Ramirez 0.

 

[OSJ]

Well, as is often the case I'm seeing some very bizarre arguments put forward. Looking at the whole list, we have arguably the GOAT being slighted (yeah, we know why... just sayin'). However, were I drafting a team from this list I'd be very hard-pressed not to take Pudge as the first pick. We're not just talking about an excellent catcher, we're talking about arguably the greatest ever at the position. To not put a premium on such a difficult position is foolishness. 

I'll be the first to admit that Manny was entertaining as all get out to watch (often for the wrong reasons), however, one has to almost consider him only half a player, his defense wasn't just bad, it was Dick Stuart level of atrocious. Jeff Bagwell is arguably the best player at his position during the time that he played, an era that was glutted with outstanding first basemen; in point of fact, at no other time has there been a similar number of great players at the position. When you're the standout player of a group that includes the likes of Mark McGwire, Will Clark, Frank Thomas, etc. you're not just a HOFr, you're in the very upper echelons of the HOF.

Tim Raines selection was of course long overdue, my only real complaints are of course the slighting of Edgar Martinez and a certain pitcher and an outfielder tainted by the roids thing. That Trevor Hoffman came so close and 'Gar missed by so many votes is truly baffling. Hoffman is upper-level Hall of the Very Good, while 'Gar is arguably the very best at his position ever.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I am disgusted.  Jeff Bagwell had arms like Johnny Bravo.  Am I supposed to believe he wasn't into some shit.  And the thing is, I don't care if he was or wasn't.  Bottom line is as long as Barry Bonds is not in the hall of fame the hall of fame has no merit.  It's not a true hall without the greatest all-around player of all time.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Looking ahead to next year's ballot, Chipper Jones and Jim Thome should be locks.

I see Hoffman and Vladimir Guerrero getting in since they came so close this year.

I'm one of those that believes Edgar Martinez should be in, so it was nice to see him gain some ground. Same with Mike Mussina. I think it will take them a few more years, but that they'll get there eventually.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

5 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I am disgusted.  Jeff Bagwell had arms like Johnny Bravo.  Am I supposed to believe he wasn't into some shit.  And the thing is, I don't care if he was or wasn't.  Bottom line is as long as Barry Bonds is not in the hall of fame the hall of fame has no merit.  It's not a true hall without the greatest all-around player of all time.

Voting in Bud Selig is enough for the Hall of Fame to lose much of its merit.

[OSJ]

The continued slighting of Bonds and Clemens is ridiculous. I have to believe that steroids were so omnipresent during that era that attempting to single out offenders is a mugs game at best. The fact that three of the most obvious abusers (Bonds, Clemens, Sosa), also happen to be irritating assholes (well, come to think of it, we can include Schilling in that general category) makes it easy for the writers to get all pious and pompous on the subject. I've said it many, many times previously, if we start booting out guys that were general jackwagons as well as those that used illegal substances, the HOF would get real roomy real quick.

I don't know if methamphetamine or biphetamine  actually improves performance, but people sure as hell thought that they (and other forms of speed) did, which makes a good chunk of the 1950s-1960s players suspect. Like it or not, PEDs were an integral part of the game to the point that it's impossible to tell who was clean and who wasn't. I really have no reason to doubt Canseco's estimate of how many players were on the juice, the man has absolutely no reason to lie about it and when you see guys like Brady Anderson and Luis Gonzalez hitting fifty+ taters a season, then the problem is obviously pretty widespread. 

[Kuetsar]

40 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I am disgusted.  Jeff Bagwell had arms like Johnny Bravo.  Am I supposed to believe he wasn't into some shit.  And the thing is, I don't care if he was or wasn't.  Bottom line is as long as Barry Bonds is not in the hall of fame the hall of fame has no merit.  It's not a true hall without the greatest all-around player of all time.

Ty Cobb is in. . . .Bonds and Clemens were HOF's before they took the juice(at least before it was obvious) so if you put them in, induct Palmeiro and Manny at the same time. There's no way in hell Sammy gets close to those numbers without the juice, and I think Mcgwire isn't a hall of famer anyway.