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LethalStriker

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Trout is going to end up a top five all-time player by advanced metrics if he keeps up a relatively normal aging cycle.

It's unlikely but not outside the realm of possibility that he could retire first all-time in WAR

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10 minutes ago, El Dragon said:

He'd have to an entire Mickey Mantle's entire career starting right now to pass Ruth. Which IS possible I suppose, but that would be difficult.

Well hopefully outside of Joe Dimaggio being a preening ass and blowing his knee out. . .

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3 hours ago, El Dragon said:

 

I know you shouldn't base this just on things like WAR, but just for a point of reference. fWAR by Outfielders in the last 50 years.

 

Manny Ramirez: 66.4 WAR, 11th best among Outfielders, surrounded by Robin Yount and Tim Raines. As said, horrid defender, but 3rd in wRC+ among the top 30 behind only Bonds and Trout.

Vladimir Guerrero: 54.3 WAR, 29th best among outfielders, surrounded by Mike Trout and Willie Stargell. Notable players ahead of him by fWAR: Bobby Abreu (59.2), Bobby Bonds (57.1), Lance Berkman (56.1), Luis Gonzalez (55.2), Brian Giles (54.9), & 26 year old Mike Trout (54.4)

 

BTW, if Mike Trout retired today, he should be an unquestioned 1st ballot HOFer, cause his career is flat stupid.

Yet Larry Walker has a higher WAR than both Manny and Vlad... and was a multiple time Golden Glover. But since he had the temerity to play for the Rockies for most of his career,  he's on the outside looking in.

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10 hours ago, KidNatural said:

Yet Larry Walker has a higher WAR than both Manny and Vlad... and was a multiple time Golden Glover. But since he had the temerity to play for the Rockies for most of his career,  he's on the outside looking in.

If Walker had the foresight to demand to go to the AL and be a DH, his vote total would be much higher. . . .

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9 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Wasn't Walker one of the Rockies players who's home/away splits were pretty even?  Or was it Helton?

No. Walker had one incredible year where his splits were even. Aside from that, his splits are wildly different.

At Coors: .381 avg, .710 slugging, 13.87 AB/HR

Everywhere else: .282 avg, .500 slugging, 20.84 AB/HR

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10 minutes ago, ChesterCopperpot said:

Thome 

DVD1DSuU8AAjcnn.jpg

I've been an Indians fan for my entire life, and I find that logo disgraceful.  It should have been gone years ago.  I can't even begin to understand the people who act like that logo is somehow sacred.  The Cavs change their uniforms like I change my underwear, and even the Browns have changed their uniforms.   

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On 1/26/2018 at 4:50 PM, El Dragon said:

 

 

BTW, if Mike Trout retired today, he should be an unquestioned 1st ballot HOFer, cause his career is flat stupid.

He's had - literally - the best first six seasons of anybody. Ever. 3 MVPs, 2 2nd place finishes, and a 4th place that would have been another win if he doesn't get hurt. 

And I agree with you - he's already a Hall of Famer. 

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  • 9 months later...

Just as I always go into baseball withdrawals after the last game of the WS, I find myself thinking about the HOF. (And no, not thinking about booting people out, but in a more positive light are there any major omissions from say, pre-1970 that we should be banging the drum for?) To me, the last real major oversight had been Joe Gordon and he's in now, so is it really possible that all the worthies from 1945-1970 have been inducted? Let me toss a couple of names out and see what we come up with: Vada Pinson yes/no/maybe? Ken Boyer yes/no/maybe?

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Okay, if I messed up the format, hopefully Phil can fix it. This is the ballot that BBWA will be utilizing for the 2019 Inductees into the MLB HOF.  The first 15 are holdovers from last year ranked in order of their percentage of votes (which I didn't include). I did list number of years on the ballot as the clock is ticking on a couple of guys. Now before anyone laughs about the listing of folks like Octavio Dotel and Jon Garland, remember the rules say all you need is 10 years in the majors and you're eligible, doesn't mean anyone is going to vote for you, but at least you get your name on the ballot. 

Note: This is just the list for players, I couldn't find one for non-players, but the deal is that the BBWA voting members can select ten names from these two lists and five non-players. 

 

 

Name        Years on Ballot
Edgar Martinez        10th
Mike Mussina           6th
Roger Clemens        7th
Barry Bonds             7th
Curt Schilling           7th
Omar Vizquel           2nd
Larry Walker             9th
Fred McGriff           10th
Manny Ramirez        3rd
Jeff Kent                   6th
Gary Sheffield           5th
Billy Wagner             4th
Scott Rolen             2nd
Sammy Sosa           7th
Andruw Jones        2nd

New Nominations:
Mariano Rivera        1st
 Roy Halladay          1st
Todd Helton            1st
Andy Pettitte           1st
Lance Berkman       1st
Roy Oswalt               1st
Miguel Tejada          1st
Placido Polanco      1st
Kevin Youkilis          1st
Derek Lowe             1st
Freddy Garcia          1st
Vernon Wells           1st
Ted Lilly                    1st
Travis Hafner          1st
Jason Bay                1st
Michael Young        1st
Ryan Dempster       1st
Jon Garland             1st
Ramon Hernandez    1st
 Darren Oliver          1st
Juan Pierre              1st
Octavio Dotel          1st
Jake Westbrook     1st
 Jose Contreras      1st
 Yorvit Torrealba     1st
 

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22 hours ago, OSJ said:

Just as I always go into baseball withdrawals after the last game of the WS, I find myself thinking about the HOF. (And no, not thinking about booting people out, but in a more positive light are there any major omissions from say, pre-1970 that we should be banging the drum for?) To me, the last real major oversight had been Joe Gordon and he's in now, so is it really possible that all the worthies from 1945-1970 have been inducted? Let me toss a couple of names out and see what we come up with: Vada Pinson yes/no/maybe? Ken Boyer yes/no/maybe?

Without going into a ton of depth, Vada is an easy no, Boyer is an easy yes. 5 Gold Gloves and an MVP for Boyer, with a decade of excellence. Pinson didn't quite get there. 

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My 10:

Edgar Martinez

Mike Mussina

Roger Clemens

Barry Bonds

Larry Walker

Manny Ramirez

Gary Sheffield

Scott Rolen

Mariano Rivera

Roy Halladay

 

JAWS has Helton as a yes, but that doesn't feel right to me.  Schilling should probably be on the list but I couldn't bring myself to vote for him.  I have much less issue with the PED guys than I do with a fucking Nazi sympathizer.  Andruw Jones would probably be 11th on my ballot

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Martinez

Mussina

Bonds

Clemens

Walker

Rolen

Jones

Rivera

Ramirez

Halladay

 

If you open the ballot up past 10 I also vote Wagner, Sheffield, Schilling, and Pettite. I could also buy arguments for McGriff, Helton, Berkman, and my favorite "clearly not but the numbers are actually arguable" case ever in Jason Bay.

 

Oh, and I'd vote Lofton and Edmunds as write in with "You fucking keep Vizquel but not these 2? You are all idiots"

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2 hours ago, Tabe said:

Without going into a ton of depth, Vada is an easy no, Boyer is an easy yes. 5 Gold Gloves and an MVP for Boyer, with a decade of excellence. Pinson didn't quite get there. 

Yep, have to agree, though Vada has a case, it's a pretty weak one. Ken Boyer, on the other hand is guilty only of playing the same position in the same league with Eddie Fucking Mathews. It's actually the original Rock Raines / Rickey Henderson scenario, or Jimmie Foxx / Babe Ruth deal. Being number #2 to the (at the time) greatest ever at the position doesn't mean you're not HOF-caliber yourself.  IMHO, Boyer is the guy that should have been inducted when they stuck in George Kell. Third has always been a position that gives the BBWA fits as they don't seem to grasp how it's the perfect blend of defense and offense. 

Ron Santo had to practically be on his deathbed to get inducted and anyone that watched Ron Santo knew they were seeing something pretty special. I think Ken is also hurt by having a brother who was a better defensive player at the same position, but yeah, I think we've got someone to bang the drum for...

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Edgar Martinez        
Roger Clemens      
Barry Bonds            
Fred McGriff          
Manny Ramirez        
Gary Sheffield           
 Sammy Sosa          
Mariano Rivera        
 Roy Halladay          

write-in: Kenny Lofton

I can't believe that I was able to hold my nose and vote for Roger Clemens, but damn it, he does belong in. 

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7 hours ago, El Dragon said:

I think the new HOF era people are gonna argue about including will be the 90's/2000's. Lofton, Edmunds, McGriff, and more are falling of the ballot and a lot of them have very good cases.

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

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I wpulnd't put either in, but MCgriff is more impressive to me. just shy of 500 HR's, 1500 Rbi's isn't anything to sneeze at, nearly 600 more hits than Edmonds, 3rd all time in games played as a 1B. . . .Not quite there, but closer than Edmonds. If you don't have 2000 hits, don't bother to apply. . . .

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13 minutes ago, Tabe said:

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

One of the best defensive center fielders of all time (better then Edmonds by a great deal), 110 wRC+ while doing it, worth 62.4 fWAR over his career, ranking him just outside the top 15 center fielders of all time (Just got passed by Trout this year because Trout is insane).

Basically, Lofton is very very comparable to Tim Raines, except Raines was better offensively were as Lofton was better defensively. 

Also, people are fucking terrible at evaluating Center Fielders and have been for years. All of Jones, Edmunds, and Lofton should be borderline locks for beling elite defensive players mixed with good to great hitters for long careers, and Carlos Beltran should be in the same group soon.

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First that will be decided about the 2019 class is anyone getting in from the Vet Committee.

This year is the "Today's Game Era"

Quote

Six former big league players, three managers and one executive comprise the 10-name Today’s Game Era ballot to be reviewed and voted upon Dec. 9 at the Baseball Winter Meetings Las Vegas. The Today’s Game Era is one of four Eras Committees, which provide an avenue for Hall of Fame consideration to managers, umpires and executives, as well as players retired for more than 15 seasons.

Harold Baines, Albert Belle, Joe Carter, Will Clark, Orel Hershiser, Davey Johnson, Charlie Manuel, Lou Piniella, Lee Smith and George Steinbrenner are the candidates the Today’s Game Era Committee will consider for Hall of Fame election for the Class of 2019. Baines, Belle, Carter, Clark, Hershiser and Smith are included for their contributions as players. Johnson, Manuel and Piniella are included for their contributions as managers, and Steinbrenner is included for his work as owner of the New York Yankees. All candidates except for Steinbrenner are living.

 

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16 hours ago, RIPPA said:

First that will be decided about the 2019 class is anyone getting in from the Vet Committee.

This year is the "Today's Game Era"

 

Harold Baines  - One of my favorite players and by all accounts a good guy. However, a HOF'r he's not.

Albert Belle - Okay, no one is ever going to confuse Albert Belle with being a nice guy, but in an abbreviated career, the man averaged 40HR a season, if he wasn't such an obnoxious fuck he'd already be in.

Joe Carter -   A delight to watch (even if he did kill my Braves that one time), but  he falls short.

Will Clark - Clark has more of a case than you might think at first glance, but like Carter, he falls short.

Orel Hershiser - He's Milt Pappas with two outstanding seasons. No, just no.

Davey Johnson - He did give us one of my favorite "stupid things managers do" moments, but that's not enough.

Charlie Manuel - Well, certainly a better manager than he was a player, I just don't think there's enough there.

Lou Piniella - Okay, I'm not objective here. I have always been a mark for Sweet Lou going back to his playing days.  I think he belongs.

Lee Smith - I've been banging the drum for Lee Smith for what seems like decades and the farther we get from his playing career, the more anemic his stats look when compared to modern closers. I know the first thing certain yahoos in BBWA look at is the W/L column and say "He had a losing record, we can't have that!" Smith was a pioneer at a position that has evolved and changed more than other in my lifetime. Comparing guys like Sutter and Smith to modern closers is a mug's game at best. Lee Smith belongs in the HOF and always has.

George Steinbrenner - The main difference between George and Donald Trump is that he threw his own money around instead of other peoples'.  The bar for owners is pretty low, considering Charlie Cominsky is in, but why make it worse? No. 

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15 hours ago, Tabe said:

I honestly don't see any argument for Lofton. Ditto McGriff. Edmonds, on the other hand, is a no-brainer. All-time elite defensive CF, multiple 40 HR seasons, career 132 OPS+. That's a Hall of Famer. 

This actually surprises me as I know you saw a lot of Lofton's career with a knowledgeable eye. Elite defensive player, (better than Edmonds by a hair), a terror on the basepaths and always a formidable offensive threat. The biggest knock on Lofton is the number of teams he played for, which on one hand can be said to mean that his teams considered him expendable; yet the flipside is that he was great trade bait because everyone wanted him. 

McGriff is a tough case and indicative of what a tremendous difference a few years can make in the game. Compared to Pujols, Thomas and Bagwell he doesn't look that imposing, compared to his almost exact contemporaries Will Clark and Joe Carter he appears godlike. He's one of those guys that's right on the bubble, keeping him out isn't a crime, but inducting him wouldn't hurt either. When your closest comps are Willie McCovey and Willie Stargell there should at least be some discussion. 

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