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NXT - AUGUST 2019


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3 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

The death knell to me was Kaz's World Title push in 2008, not because he was a WWE castoff, but because he was the castoff who came back. 

He beat Christian in a ladder match, immediately lost to Angle, and fell back to his level. No idea why you picked such an insignificant event to fit your weird grand narrative. 

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56 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

He beat Christian in a ladder match, immediately lost to Angle, and fell back to his level. No idea why you picked such an insignificant event to fit your weird grand narrative. 

Because even if these two events are insignificant, they represent the moment where it became clear that it was an Indian caste system in place- and there was no chance of getting out of it.

It's the problem that hurt WCW, it's the problem that hurt TNA...and honestly, it's a core problem for the issue that's hurting the WWE right now- once the caste system is firmly in place, the show suffers because the fans realize their favorite will never win the big one, their favorite is a loser...and that means they, personally, are losers for cheering for this loser.Even if it's someone like, say, No Way Jose where it's probably a one in a billion chance he'll win the big one, the difference is without it, the fans will still think "one in a billion" with "...so you're telling me THERE'S A CHANCE?"...and if there's a caste system, it is worse because even if the fans' choice wins the title, the response is "...whatever. They're only going to lose the title to this person who's a HAVE, and then I'll be sad when they lose it. Better to stay miserable while my favorite is the champion so it hurts me less when they inevitably lose."

NXT had been on all eight cylinders traditionally because there was that belief that no matter who it was on the roster, there was not only a chance, but a firm belief that if the fans wanted them badly enough and the worker worked hard enough, literally ANYONE could get that big push and that chance to be the big star." (Granted, this may be worse if Vince and Dunn get the book- but again, it feels like it's there anyway.)

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I like that you've found a way to spin this so that even if your narrative can be proven false, it doesn't matter because in your mind fans are conditioned to expect the other shoe to drop at any moment. You've conjured a mind game where it doesn't matter that AJ  and Roode and Magnus and Joe and so on were homegrown champions, but Kaz getting a push for like a month DOES matter and represents the problem clearly and completely. 

Absolutely wild take. Respect. 

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There's *always* been a caste system in Wrestling, it was positioning on the card.  A few people broke through, but some people just never were more than first half of the show workers.  But people loved cheering for good guys, regardless of place on the card, and people booed heels, regardless of place on the card.  Now, some of that was down to rotating workers, be it territories or early 90's or the Monday Night War, people moved around.  

Not to go "this is one the fans", but people getting invested in their favorite so much that they started hating watching when their favorite didn't win came around in the late 90's.  It came along when squash matches went away and no longer existed as a tool to keep guys hot and save matches for Big TV/PPV/Big House Show.  We blow through match series in weeks instead of months, and no one leaves.  People stagnate.  There's no movement, everything's 50/50, nothing's really special.  And we get so wrapped up in our favorites that we want everyone to be champ.  

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4 hours ago, Raziel said:

There's *always* been a caste system in Wrestling, it was positioning on the card.  A few people broke through, but some people just never were more than first half of the show workers.  But people loved cheering for good guys, regardless of place on the card, and people booed heels, regardless of place on the card.  Now, some of that was down to rotating workers, be it territories or early 90's or the Monday Night War, people moved around.  

Not to go "this is one the fans", but people getting invested in their favorite so much that they started hating watching when their favorite didn't win came around in the late 90's.  It came along when squash matches went away and no longer existed as a tool to keep guys hot and save matches for Big TV/PPV/Big House Show.  We blow through match series in weeks instead of months, and no one leaves.  People stagnate.  There's no movement, everything's 50/50, nothing's really special.  And we get so wrapped up in our favorites that we want everyone to be champ.  

That, I can actually agree with- but that's ultimately the difference NXT had. Ultimately, there is the point where there's more proof what the fans really want is not "I want them to be champ", but "I want them to have their MOMENT."  Tyler Breeze's main roster run is an example- it's kind of convenient the one time that people didn't go "Boring. Tyler Breeze isn't World Champ. fuck you" happened to be during the Fashion Files...which was the only time Breeze was doing something on the main roster.

That's also what made NXT so great. Ultimately, NXT worked so well because on NXT, every loser eventually won. There was a chance if you wanted it badly enough and they worked hard enough- that your faith in your favorite would be rewarded.They'd get to be in the thick of the title picture of NXT, they'd have their big Takeover match, they'd have the chance to get their moment...and if they somehow were one of those talents who slipped through the cracks in NXT? Well, the moment they got the main roster callup counted as "their moment" too. NXT is the one show where there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and that light seems to have gone out.

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Doing my best to hang back and let things be these days, given how militant so many online fans have seemingly become. The overall roster has gotten so overloaded that it would be literally impossible to "push everybody". Once someone gets signed (and subsequently when/if they move to the main roster), my only real wishes are for them to have fun and get paid; anything else is gravy.

Edited by PB-13
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21 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Honestly, this ties to the big problem right now- even past "EVOLVE and PROGRESS are the developmentals", Street Profits may be the real death knell for NXT as we speak.

The death knell for TNA, in my opinion, was never "they got all these big WWE stars and pushed them." The death knell to me was Kaz's World Title push in 2008, not because he was a WWE castoff, but because he was the castoff who came back. They could have picked any TNA homegrown to push, and pushed the guy who was in WWE for literally three weeks, and in the process said "Fuck these homegrowns. Who'd they ever beat? if you want to be a star, leave, go to WWE, and come back and THEN we'll push you to the moon."

Similarly, Street Profits are a fun tag team getting some buzz. Exactly the type of thing that NXT was always about. They rise the ranks and are becoming fun.

They hit a plateau as non-indie workers.

WWE sends them to EVOLVE for a few months.

Once they worked EVOLVE, NOW they are "Former EVOLVE stars Street Profits", and now they've been anointed as holy "former indie darlings'. NOW, they can get the big push, now they can get the NXT Tag Titles. Street Profits didn't particularly get better in the ring, and indeed, the only thing Montez Ford or Angelo Dawkins really learned from their EVOLVE excursion was putting "I once took a paycheck from Gabe Sapolsky" on their resume...now it's turned them into a HAVE who is allowed to be pushed by NXT, and it's sent the message 'fuck these PC grads. If they're really so good, why don't they come from the indies?"

I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone considers them "former EVOLVE stars The Street Profits" because WWE lent them out for a few shows. That's quite a reach, pal.

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6 minutes ago, Phil4126 said:

I'm just confused at what point the Street Profits became "indy darlings"

That's when I decided that this conversation was not for me.  I do find it curious that the biggest homegrown talents they have right now are all black.  The Street Profits, Bianca Belair, and Velveteen Dream are about as over as anyone on the entire roster.  Two are champions, and the third probably should be.  

I think the biggest issue with current NXT is the top of the card is stagnant, the bottom of the card has no direction, and the middle is just spinning their wheels.  Belair should have beat Baszler...and if not her it should have been Shirai.  Now they don't have credibility, and no one with eyes thinks any of the rest of the women are even on their level.  I like Cole as a lead heel.  It feels like it's his turn to have a run on top.  Matt Riddle and Keith Lee needed to be in feuds that elevated their position to at least the North American Championship level.  Both of those guys were brought in, feuded with Kassious Ohno, and then have just been hanging around.  They need to give these guys a direction when they debut, so that they have challengers to their champions.  Losing the NXT Championship should be a sort of graduation where you immediately get called up.  Too bad, there's no space on the main roster, but that's how it should work.

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The only conversation I remember seeing re: the Street Profits and Evolve was some optimism that working with guys not in the NXT/PC system might help round them out as performers and get them to the next level, which is of course a completely reasonable, measured thing to think. I would need to see literally any evidence of anyone saying "STREET PROFITS WERE EVOLVE CHAMPS THEY MUST BE PUSHED NOW!!!!" to not dismiss it as a ridiculous reach from someone who drew a conclusion and is working backwards from it.

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1 hour ago, Infinit said:

I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone considers them "former EVOLVE stars The Street Profits" because WWE lent them out for a few shows. That's quite a reach, pal.

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

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On 8/17/2019 at 6:40 PM, MORELOCK said:

205's issue has always been the insistence on it being aired live and following SmackDown at shows where people paid to see SmackDown - if NXT was in its place, it would be having the same issue. It's been shown lots of times that the main roster audience doesn't necessarily know who the hell NXT people are.

Not sure about that. Given the reactions NXT gets and the crowds they draw regularly to house shows, I'd say that's pretty debatable. Wasn't NXT one of the most watched shows for a while on the Network? Even outdrawing various WWE PPV's?

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4 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

You strike me as the type of person who can't get over the fact that some people like their cucumbers pickled.  There are people who think all types of random nonsense, why try to break down the semantics of every single opinion.  Damn near all of these people wrestled in some random indy, it doesn't mean that they are an indy star.  Velveteen Dream is only 24 years old, and has been in the WWE since 2015.  When exactly was he an indy star?  

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11 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

Yeah, you're obviously trolling.

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4 minutes ago, supremebve said:

You strike me as the type of person who can't get over the fact that some people like their cucumbers pickled.  There are people who think all types of random nonsense, why try to break down the semantics of every single opinion.  Damn near all of these people wrestled in some random indy, it doesn't mean that they are an indy star.  Velveteen Dream is only 24 years old, and has been in the WWE since 2015.  When exactly was he an indy star?  

Never. Dream was never an "indy darling."

I mean, there's plenty of us folks on here who follow the indys closely and never have any of us ever hyped up Patrick Clark or whatever his indy name was, so labeling a virtual unknown indy dude who was clearly developed and brought to stardom in a WWE environment an "indy darling" is a huge reach.

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19 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

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18 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

Patrick Clark was a WWE Tough Enough member who then worked in an indy. It's not he was main eventing multiple indies. Thinking he was some sort of indy darling before he went to NXT and becoming The Dream is really making a mountain out of a molehill, IMO.

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4 minutes ago, Edwin said:

Never. Dream was never an "indy darling."

I mean, there's plenty of us folks on here who follow the indys closely and never have any of us ever hyped up Patrick Clark or whatever his indy name was, so labeling a virtual unknown indy dude who was clearly developed and brought to stardom in a WWE environment an "indy darling" is a huge reach.

Seriously, based on his logic, anyone who wrestled before signing to WWE is an indy darling.  That makes pretty much everyone an indy darling.  Almost everyone in the PC has at least some experience...otherwise they wouldn't have even been invited.

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25 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

There's a number of people who consider Velveteen Dream a indy star, even though he was virtually unknown in his time in MCW and he was literally a Tough Enough contestant. Maybe it's a reach, but it's not as far as youthink.

Do those same number of people now consider Babatunde an indy star now that he gets booked in EVOLVE shows too?

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