NXT - AUGUST 2019

[Niners Fan in CT]

I'm not against "characters" but this idea that NXT would be better off with a bunch of characters and pet projects is weird to me.  The whole reason these shows sell out is because of said indy darlings.  People aren't buying tickets to watch Lars Sullivan.   

Edited August 17, 2019 by Niners Fan in CT

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, Edwin said:

So you would rather have NXT be exactly like RAW and SDL than an alternative brand?

Gotcha.

So you would rather have NXT be exactly like 205 Live with a bunch of "I am [blank.] I am here to have the best match on the card with a man/woman whom I deeply respect as a competitor and have no ill feelings towards whatsoever" than have NXT be like what it was back in 2013-16 when NXT was the best wrestling show on the planet? Gotcha.

I can do that too.

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I'm not against "characters" but this idea that NXT would be better off with a bunch of characters and pet projects is weird to me.  The whole reason these shows sell out is because of said indy darlings.  People aren't buying tickets to watch Lars Sullivan.   

Then why are the shows not selling out when it's just indy darlings being indie darlings like they were when NXT had a bunch of characters and pet projects running around?

[John from Cincinnati]

I wish 205 had someone doing a character like Dream. 

[Eivion]

27 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I wish 205 had someone doing a character like Dream. 

I always wondered why they never tried putting Breeze on 205Live. He could have been that.

[Guest Edwin]

1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

So you would rather have NXT be exactly like 205 Live with a bunch of "I am [blank.] I am here to have the best match on the card with a man/woman whom I deeply respect as a competitor and have no ill feelings towards whatsoever" than have NXT be like what it was back in 2013-16 when NXT was the best wrestling show on the planet? Gotcha.

That's not true... If 205 Live was anything like NXT, the fans wouldn't be walking out on them during their tapings. And if you think everyone is some generic kickpad wearing dude, then yeah, you probably don't follow NXT as closely as you think you do.

Also, claiming something is the best is entirely subjective, so that's pretty pointless to debate -- however regardless of how you felt about the last TakeOver, NXT is still one of the best or most consistent wrestling shows on.

1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

Then why are the shows not selling out when it's just indy darlings being indie darlings like they were when NXT had a bunch of characters and pet projects running around?

What shows are you claiming aren't selling out now? TakeOver's draw big crowds.

The crowds at the tapings, for example, have increased.

NXT live shows have also seen increases in attendances. I remember going to NXT live events previously and the venues being much smaller with smaller crowds. Now that's not the case anymore.

Edited August 17, 2019 by Edwin

[AxB]

3 hours ago, Eivion said:

 whenever Vince eventually kills over.

He's been killing what gets over for years, man.

[John from Cincinnati]

Speaking of 205, I mentioned it in that thread but since nobody goes there: Angel Garza will be on Team Gulak in this week’s ten man tag. He’s presumably going to be feuding with his cousin Humberto, and it’s going to be awesome. Should be interesting of that means he won’t be a long term NXT Guy.

[MORELOCK]

2 hours ago, Edwin said:

That's not true... If 205 Live was anything like NXT, the fans wouldn't be walking out on them during their tapings.

205's issue has always been the insistence on it being aired live and following SmackDown at shows where people paid to see SmackDown - if NXT was in its place, it would be having the same issue. It's been shown lots of times that the main roster audience doesn't necessarily know who the hell NXT people are.

[Niners Fan in CT]

3 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Then why are the shows not selling out when it's just indy darlings being indie darlings like they were when NXT had a bunch of characters and pet projects running around?

What shows aren't selling out though?  I was at NXT Takeover New York in April.  It was a complete sellout.  The most over people on the entire show were Cole,  Gargano, Dream and Ricochet. 3 of the 4 made their name in other promotions.   I love Dream and I like characters,   Bayley was a tremendous character.  I don't think NXT has ever been 99% "sport" they have always had a mix of workrate and a few characters sprinkled in but it's those workrate guys who have sold the shows for the most part. 

They haven't booked it like Ring of Honor,  they've been booking it like an NWA territory and it's been great.  Even now it's still the best thing they have.  

[JonnyLaw]

I have no info one way or the other about NXT live shows selling out, but questioning the claim because you were literally at their biggest show of the year, during the biggest weekend of the year, and it was sold out is dubious.

Edited August 18, 2019 by JonnyLaw

[joseph2112]

Someone should tell Vince that if he really wants the ratings he should put NXT as currently constructed on TV up against Raw. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

20 minutes ago, JonnyLaw said:

I have no info one way or the other about NXT live shows selling out, but questioning the claim because you were literally at their biggest show of the year, during the biggest weekend of the year, and it was sold out is dubious.

It wasn't just that - My post went into the performers who I felt had by far the biggest reactions on the show.  I think it's been clear since the start that the "indy darlings" have been the main draws.  

[RIPPA]

This is all I care about

 

[SorceressKnight]

3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

It wasn't just that - My post went into the performers who I felt had by far the biggest reactions on the show.  I think it's been clear since the start that the "indy darlings" have been the main draws.  

The "indy darlings" have been the main draws for some of it- but going through history when NXT was at its best it's not a guarantee.

I mean, I love the great indy runs of Enzo and Cass before they came to NXT. And all those fans who cheered for the Bayley/Sasha feud? Clearly they were all just huge fans of Davina Rose and Mercedes KV....much like all those diehard Steven Walters and KC McKnight fans who clearly only liked Revival matches because of that, am I right?

Even now, who cares about this Velveteen Dream kid- he's clearly only over because he was Lio Rush's tag partner in MCW. Completely made by that run. 

Saying that just the 'indy darlings" have been the main draws in NXT is a clown move- there's far more greatness of people who rose the ranks and became spectacular. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

Listing a few names beside the dozens of indy darlings who currently occupy WWE television isn't going far to counter my point.  I never said former indy wrestlers are the only ones who got over or the only ones who have shown promise or the only ones people wanted to see.  I said the former indy wrestlers have been the main draw. Main means chief in size or importance. It doesn't mean this is the only thing that has ever and will ever matter. 

[SorceressKnight]

Honestly, it may not counter your point, but my point is there.

NXT isn't just about "throw an indie darling at the show so people coo for one more Takeover spree, then throw another one on when they lose their fizz as the flavor of the month". It was at its best when they DIDN'T just have superstars from the indies getting over, showing promise, and making the fans want to see it.

Now, on the other hand, the roster's gone past "you can't get called up if you're a PC trainee" and gone to "Even the indie darlings are clogged out". Lost in the NXT callup is the fact that if it goes 8-10, NXT NEEDS that second hour desperately right now just to get people into rotation. 

Yes, maybe NXT is still very good right now.  But it was BETTER when they had all of these people rising the ranks. 

[JonnyLaw]

Clearly the issue with NXT is that they stopped making the indie darlings sit through the beginners classes and doing basic rolls and stuff, and as a result, we’ve ended up with repetitive, divisive kickout fests. 

[EVA]

I actually agree that the best, most interesting period of NXT was when it offered a good mix of genuine developmental talent and experienced Indy dudes doing their thing.  It was pretty rewarding to see the newbies figure things out and develop their characters, and then you’d get, say, Steen and El Generico doing cool shit as a cherry on top.

But somewhere along the way, NXT changed from being a true developmental brand where newbies learned to work and experienced vets learned to adapt to the WWE style to being the WWE’s alternative to NJPW/ROH/AEW.  While the work rate may be substantially better in the new Super Indy NXT, I think it’s substantially less interesting to watch on a regular basis.

Personally, I preferred Takeovers when they were tight, 2-hour affairs where you had some short openers that continued building characters and there was a sense of escalation to the card and it culminated in a big main event that would really try to be something special (without going nuts).  Now, nearly every fucking match is 15-20 minutes* long and everybody is trying to have the MOTY and it’s borderline insufferable.  They’ve basically adapted a PWG house style, and it sucks.

 

*I’m sure someone will go to Wikipedia and try to “Well, actually, the average Takeover match is 11:38...” me on this.  Point being, everything certainly feels like it goes on WAY longer than it has any need to.

Edited August 18, 2019 by EVA

[Godfrey]

It's funny considering he's one of my current favorites but Kevin Owens' arrival in NXT was sort of the death knell for it as a developmental. I can see the argument for Neville and Zayn needing to be there but I'm not sure how much developing Owens ever did. He popped in to continue a storyline from the independents with Sami and was on Raw 5 months later attacking John f'n Cena. Maybe he worked on his forward rolls with Regal during that time, I don't know, but he certainly didn't seem to alter his game much after taking out the head drops. After that was the Finn/Joe/Nakamura era and none of those guys needed developing, adapting to the WWE style maybe so we let it slide. But Bobby Roode was questionable and Drew McIntyre had already been there! Almas is the outlier here as he really needed some work at first and they pulled it off but ever since it's been the increasingly epic Gargano-esque matches, and most of the time I think those guys are just there because they're too small for Raw and they don't know what else to do with them.

And all that would be fine but along the way they've been dragging more indie guys into their wake because that's the precedent that's been set and people like Kona Reeves don't get what they were supposed to get with NXT: a chance to work in front of a smaller live and TV audience so they can get better. Is Reeves any good these days? I honestly have no idea. He didn't deliver in a few matches and now he's MIA. Meanwhile, I've seen nearly 20 year vet Roderick Strong every week. And let's face it, many of us including me would rather watch a Strong match than a Reeves one. NXT has grown so far beyond its original purpose, maybe it is time to let it go to FS1 and be WWE's in-house alternative brand. Evolve and Progress are the developmentals now.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Godfrey

[Niners Fan in CT]

It wasn't a question of that, I agree that NXT was at it's peak a few years back.  it was a question of who have been the draws on the show.   Most of the draws have had some independent background.  I forget who it was now but someone on a previous page stated that NXT would be better off with a bunch of projects and characters. 

What evidence do we have that supports this idea?   That is what the main rosters have been since forever and clearly it didn't work out very well for them.  

The secret to the NXT formula is that it was never really a developmental at all. For every Bayley (even she had some background),  there were and are a half dozen men and women who made their name elsewhere and were ready for TV.   

All NXT had to do is take them out of the box,  shine them up a little bit and send them out there. The booking was also part of it,  they have done a very simple straightforward take on a modern version of an NWA territory.  It worked.  

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, Godfrey said:

And all that would be fine but along the way they've been dragging more indie guys into their wake because that's the precedent that's been set and people like Kona Reeves don't get what they were supposed to get with NXT: a chance to work in front of a smaller live and TV audience so they can get better. Is Reeves any good these days? I honestly have no idea. He didn't deliver in a few matches and now he's MIA. Meanwhile, I've seen nearly 20 year vet Roderick Strong every week. And let's face it, many of us including me would rather watch a Strong match than a Reeves one. NXT has grown so far beyond its original purpose, maybe it is time to let it go to FS1 and be WWE's in-house alternative brand. Evolve and Progress are the developmentals now.

Honestly, this ties to the big problem right now- even past "EVOLVE and PROGRESS are the developmentals", Street Profits may be the real death knell for NXT as we speak.

The death knell for TNA, in my opinion, was never "they got all these big WWE stars and pushed them." The death knell to me was Kaz's World Title push in 2008, not because he was a WWE castoff, but because he was the castoff who came back. They could have picked any TNA homegrown to push, and pushed the guy who was in WWE for literally three weeks, and in the process said "Fuck these homegrowns. Who'd they ever beat? if you want to be a star, leave, go to WWE, and come back and THEN we'll push you to the moon."

Similarly, Street Profits are a fun tag team getting some buzz. Exactly the type of thing that NXT was always about. They rise the ranks and are becoming fun.

They hit a plateau as non-indie workers.

WWE sends them to EVOLVE for a few months.

Once they worked EVOLVE, NOW they are "Former EVOLVE stars Street Profits", and now they've been anointed as holy "former indie darlings'. NOW, they can get the big push, now they can get the NXT Tag Titles. Street Profits didn't particularly get better in the ring, and indeed, the only thing Montez Ford or Angelo Dawkins really learned from their EVOLVE excursion was putting "I once took a paycheck from Gabe Sapolsky" on their resume...now it's turned them into a HAVE who is allowed to be pushed by NXT, and it's sent the message 'fuck these PC grads. If they're really so good, why don't they come from the indies?"

[Wyld Samurai]

The issue with broadcasting a show with nothing but homegrown talent all trained in the same place by the same people is that you see the exact same matches. It's even more evident when you look at the PC trained women.

[Godfrey]

I personally would like more projects and characters in NXT because I like watching wrestlers learn and evolve and more characters mean less epic movefests (theoretically). But to @Niners Fan in CT's point, No, NXT wouldn't be better off that way at all, at least from a commercial perspective.

[AxB]

The problem with having a developmental territory to get people ready for the main roster is, they've been hoarding talent and keeping main roster workers who they have no use for under contract. The annual post Mania talent cull no longer occurs. So because nobody on top is leaving, the main roster spots aren't getting vacated, there's nowhere for the Dev guys to graduate to. It's programmed inertia. What's the one complaint WWE fans have had the most, over the years? The 'Same old shit' complaint, right? Nothing ever changes, and if it does, it changes straight back. It's how Vince wants things to go, you can tell because he does it so much. Well, expect it to get worse, in that regard.

[MORELOCK]

3 hours ago, Wyld Samurai said:

The issue with broadcasting a show with nothing but homegrown talent all trained in the same place by the same people is that you see the exact same matches. It's even more evident when you look at the PC trained women.

This is more of an issue with who's laying out the matches (presumably per Vince/HHH's specific instructions) than the wrestlers or trainers. It's an issue with every show and match right now, including people that did all of their training and work outside of the company. Rotating fresh trainers in and out hasn't even really helped, as it doesn't matter what those trainers do if the workers are told to go out there and work the exact same matches.