AUGUST 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.

[MORELOCK]

My examples aside, I don't think anyone actually remembers the Model run fondly for the matches. The turn and character work were a revelation after Martel had spent years portraying a generic white-meat babyface in a company full of colorful characters. If the turn never happens, I could easily see Martel tagging with Brunzell in 1992 getting squashed by the Beverly Brothers and being (even moreso) forgotten by the modern audience.

[BurningBeard]

1 hour ago, MORELOCK said:

Heel vs. Heel Shawn-Martel at Summerslam 92 is endlessly enjoyable. 

Worth it just for this:

34 minutes ago, Matt D said:

ask them what the best Model Rick Martel match is.

Why do you think Martel was so adamant he became a heel? Do you think he'd just had enough of being a firey babyface and wanted to try something else out? I remember him saying he was walking away from WWF if he wasn't allowed to turn.

He had the charisma and arrogance (pun intended) to pull it off but like you said, no matches really sticks out from the heel run 

Edited August 6, 2019 by CreativeControl

[LoneWolf&Subs]

If you need to point to a match from his WWF heel run that was legit a real good highlight, then I’d say Razor Vs. The Model for the vacant IC Belt is the one you’d recommend. Martel was never as motivated in the ring in his WWF run as he was that night.

Edited August 6, 2019 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Matt D]

So I've been pretty deep down this hole. The Bret vs Martel draw is sort of the poster child for people bringing out the grueling travel schedule as an excuse why certain 80s/early 90s WWF matches are bad. I am not a moveset guy necessarily but if you look at the things that Hennig was doing as a heel in the AWA as Cool Curt and then in his WWF heel run, it's night and day. There's an element of that to Martel as well. Their matches were dumbed down to a degree.

Martel became a heel because its' more fun to be a heel, I'd imagine. It's easier. You get to be an asshole. It's fun to be an asshole. It's not like Strike Force merch was making him loads of extra money. You get to call the matches. 

[mattdangerously]

14 hours ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

I’m curious if anyone but me has had big changes on how they viewed some old workers via footage for recently released.

I've watched a lot of 80s Memphis lately, and holy shit, Koko Ware was tremendous. I think if there was more video available of Koko and Bobby Eaton together as a tag team, we'd all be hailing them as one of the all-time great tandems.

[NikoBaltimore]

23 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

If you need to point to a match from his WWF heel run that was legit a real good highlight, then I’d say Razor Vs. The Model for the vacant IC Belt is the one you’d recommend. Martel was never as motivated in the ring in his WWF run as he was that night.

I remember the Martel gimmick quite well but this was the first match of his I vividly remember from him as a kid.  But he was pretty darn motivated and it was a helluva back and forth match.  I'm going to need to rewatch this at some point as I remember really loving it.

[Matt D]

I'm willing to listen to the argument that Martel had a better 93-94 than 89-92, like how I'm willing to listen to the argument that Hennig had a better 93 than 88-91. In making that though, you have to poke at the Conventional Wisdom a bit. Again, these are arguments that would have made more sense in 2000 than in 2019 now that we're so far away from this. 

[chanandlerbong]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

So I've been pretty deep down this hole. The Bret vs Martel draw is sort of the poster child for people bringing out the grueling travel schedule as an excuse why certain 80s/early 90s WWF matches are bad. I am not a moveset guy necessarily but if you look at the things that Hennig was doing as a heel in the AWA as Cool Curt and then in his WWF heel run, it's night and day. There's an element of that to Martel as well. Their matches were dumbed down to a degree.

Martel became a heel because its' more fun to be a heel, I'd imagine. It's easier. You get to be an asshole. It's fun to be an asshole. It's not like Strike Force merch was making him loads of extra money. You get to call the matches. 

Virtually every piece of Model footage I've seen it looks like he's having an absolute blast being that character. I'm guessing professionally it would be incredibly refreshing to change it up to such a degree.

[Web Conn]

Piper and MArtel were a babyface team in Portland in the early 80's

 

[supremebve]

Just now, chanandlerbong said:

Virtually every piece of Model footage I've seen it looks like he's having an absolute blast being that character. I'm guessing professionally it would be incredibly refreshing to change it up to such a degree.

There is a reason we all remember "The Model," it's because he was phenomenal.  His ring work wasn't what it was, but that character was hilarious.  He was a great, but kind of generic babyface worker, but he was a GREAT heel character.  For a guy who I think was one of the best babyface workers of the 80s, I'm a much bigger fan of that character.

 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

At least they gave him the chance to be a heel. Ricky Steamboat begged, and begged, and begged, but they told him “No”. I sometimes watch that footage with him, Flair, and Arn in WCW with suits on when they were all faces that makes me wish we saw them as the new Horseman, with Richard Blood in the Tully role. 

[Pete]

I forget if it ever made TV, but Martel was going around the horn with Bret for the WWF title in late 1992 at one point. Their match in Peoria was really good live.

[MORELOCK]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Again, these are arguments that would have made more sense in 2000 than in 2019 now that we're so far away from this. 

I don't follow what you mean here. 

[Johnny Sorrow]

Don't sleep on the Martel/ Garea tag team in WWF in the early 80's. They were great. The matches against Fuji and Saito were a blast.

[Matt D]

57 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

I don't follow what you mean here. 

In my head, I see 89-91 as a distinct period. 

It's Martel feuding with Tito, Beefcake, Jake.

Then, after Mania, he's gone for most of the rest of 91 (real estate, I think).

Then you have 92 where he feuds with basically Tatanka, Michaels, Virgil. 

In 93, he's gone for a big chunk of the year (same thing), and has the Razor stuff. There are some TV matches you get in 93-94 with 123-Kid or Owen. He has a house show run with Backlund and some with Duke the Dumpster, but in general, 92,  93, and 94 feel a lot different to me than 89-91. Distinct runs.

BUT, time compresses, and while as a kid, all of that felt like a really long period of time. It's not. Therefore, there's probably no good reason to break up his run, even though it is distinctly broken up in my head. Does that make sense?

Owen and Kid matches that I haven't seen in forever if at all

Edited August 6, 2019 by Matt D

[The Man Known as Dan]

I do think people point out Martels heel work not being good have a point, by my general counter is that Martel should never have been a heel. He’s just under the Steamboat level for best in ring faces of the 80’s, and I don’t think that gap is that big. The only others I’d consider at his level for that is Piper during the early 80s and maybe Tito.

 

If Martel never turns heel we probably view him as just under the very best faces of the 80’s.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Koko was great in the Crockett Cup.  His offense was over too. Shame some people think he's the worst inductee into the HOF.  

[Raziel]

It's mostly due to the lack of video from the Florida/Memphis area in the early 80's.  No one really realizes that people existed before they hit WWF/JCP.

[Matt D]

You know who I think was a better babyface than a heel? Dibiase.

Watch this:

Re: Koko. I think if you look at the WWE Hall of Fame as JUST a WWWF/WWF/WWE Hall of Fame and based upon the traditional half-kayfabe/half-Vince's Tastes metrics, Koko remains a dubious choice. He was a low card guy, a jobber to the stars, a colorful character. He had some crossover success with the singing and the bird. He was in very few memorable feuds and has very few memorable moments. He has no title runs. His biggest claim was being in the main event of Survivor Series 88, but then so was The Red Rooster. #2 might have just being on the card for Wrestlemania III (he lost).

The WWE HOF is actually both more and less than that though, and in that regard, he's a totally valid guy. NONE of his work prior to getting into WWE counts at all towards him getting in.  Look at the video:

He's in because he put smiles on faces. That's basically it.

Is his work in Memphis and Mid-South pretty awesome? Absolutely. But it has nothing at all to do why he's in the WWE Hall of Fame or whether he's deserving to get in so that's such a strange argument to me. 

[supremebve]

7 minutes ago, Matt D said:

You know who I think was a better babyface than a heel? Dibiase.

Watch this:

Re: Koko. I think if you look at the WWE Hall of Fame as JUST a WWWF/WWF/WWE Hall of Fame and based upon the traditional half-kayfabe/half-Vince's Tastes metrics, Koko remains a dubious choice. He was a low card guy, a jobber to the stars, a colorful character. He had some crossover success with the singing and the bird. He was in very few memorable feuds and has very few memorable moments. He has no title runs. His biggest claim was being in the main event of Survivor Series 88, but then so was The Red Rooster. #2 might have just being on the card for Wrestlemania III (he lost).

The WWE HOF is actually both more and less than that though, and in that regard, he's a totally valid guy. NONE of his work prior to getting into WWE counts at all towards him getting in.  Look at the video:

He's in because he put smiles on faces. That's basically it.

Is his work in Memphis and Mid-South pretty awesome? Absolutely. But it has nothing at all to do why he's in the WWE Hall of Fame or whether he's deserving to get in so that's such a strange argument to me. 

Koko B. Ware is like The Bushwhackers to me.  He was a guy who could lose every single match, but as soon as his music hit, and he walked down the aisle the crowd would pop every single time.  Sure, he could have had a better WWF run, but having a lower midcard guy who could work, get sympathy, and do a job to get a guy over is valuable for a promotion.  I would have liked to see him get more wins, but he was incredibly good at what he was asked to do.  

[Raziel]

1 minute ago, supremebve said:

Koko B. Ware is like The Bushwhackers to me.  He was a guy who could lose every single match, but as soon as his music hit, and he walked down the aisle the crowd would pop every single time.  Sure, he could have had a better WWF run, but having a lower midcard guy who could work, get sympathy, and do a job to get a guy over is valuable for a promotion.  I would have liked to see him get more wins, but he was incredibly good at what he was asked to do.  

You know what they had going for them that helped get them over.... squashes.  Squashes and lightly produced match structure that let them work heat segments to get sympathy.  The squashes got them wins, so they could take losses without losing their heat.

[Niners Fan in CT]

16 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Is his work in Memphis and Mid-South pretty awesome? Absolutely. But it has nothing at all to do why he's in the WWE Hall of Fame or whether he's deserving to get in so that's such a strange argument to me. 

I understand completely what you're saying here but there are guys in the WWE Hall now that never had a run in WWE so you can kinda retcon Koko's induction and include his career outside of WWE is you wish.   The parameters (if there are any) have changed. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Niners Fan in CT

[Matt D]

Sure, you can do whatever you want. Honestly, Koko getting in changed the criteria in and of itself. Once you put Koko in any "federation era" guy or even Attitude Era guy deserves to get in. If Koko gets in, of COURSE, Beefcake gets in. If Koko gets in Martel should get in. Koko never had as much success as that Battle Royal tie, let alone being tag champs. Remember, Koko was the guy they had Martel go over in a blindfold match on the way to Jake at Mania. Etc. 

Once Koko gets in on just his WWF merits, you start thinking about just where the bar is. I actually think Bushwhackers are potentially a stronger case than Koko. They had more angles (Breaking the R&B album, getting turned on to create the Natural Disasters, the mixed tag with Jamison/Genius). 

[Niners Fan in CT]

4 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Once Koko gets in on just his WWF merits, you start thinking about just where the bar is. I actually think Bushwhackers are potentially a stronger case than Koko. They had more angles (Breaking the R&B album, getting turned on to create the Natural Disasters, the mixed tag with Jamison/Genius). 

Bushwhackers had some wins on major PPVs also.  They defeated the Rougeaus at WrestleMania V. 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

I do think people point out Martels heel work not being good have a point, by my general counter is that Martel should never have been a heel. He’s just under the Steamboat level for best in ring faces of the 80’s, and I don’t think that gap is that big. The only others I’d consider at his level for that is Piper during the early 80s and maybe Tito.

 

If Martel never turns heel we probably view him as just under the very best faces of the 80’s.

Is this true for Hennig as well?