AUGUST 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.

[MORELOCK]

9 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Which booking decision are you talking about? Your pronouns are unclear.

Either way, 1980s Vince McMahon was a good manipulator of crowd reactions. Late-1990s Vince was as well. If 2010s Vince isn't getting the reaction he's shooting for, that's on him, not the crowd. Blaming the audience because they didn't react the way that the artist hoped they would is extremely weak beer.

 

The Rollins cash-in.

That specific booking decision was made based on fan reaction; The fans are partially responsible for that specific booking decision. To suggest that the fans have no power over booking isn't accurate. It was the second Mania main event in a row to be altered because of crowd reaction.

If the cycle wasn't [watch WWE show] -> [shit on WWE show online] -> [continue to watch WWE shows], the I'd argue that the fans could have a lot more power than they already do. Many seem unwilling to vote with their wallet by cancelling their Network subscription, not going to live events (including NXT), not buying merch, and not contributing to their YouTube views and social media numbers. If WWE is hemorrhaging fans (and they aren't - at least not to a significant enough degree), they will make changes. The Saudi and FOX deals are stop-gaps that won't save them if their fan base disappears.

[Ziggy]

12 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

Sure - but you said you would have had Reigns go over in the Mania match against Brock to "make" him, and that's really easy to say in hindsight. It would have been a universally unpopular decision at the time to the point that the plans were changed. The fans do bear some responsibility for that particular booking decision because it was based on their reactions.

That match is probably the one of the greatest main events in WM history. He came off as more of a bad ass than the booking of him was allowed to be at that point. He brought it to Brock. He should've went over because he wouldve won most of the crowd over anyway. It hurt him chasing the title for so long and forcing him to be the underdog. He would have been better off as a heel coming out of the Shield split maybe feuding with Cena then they turn on him.The biggest issue with Roman was everything seemed so obvious and forced that he was the next top guy. As a booker it shouldn't come across as such.

[AxB]

So Kenny Omega is going back to DDT. Just for one match though, a mixed tag with Riho.

[The Natural]

2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

That match is probably the one of the greatest main events in WM history. He came off as more of a bad ass than the booking of him was allowed to be at that point. He brought it to Brock. He should've went over because he wouldve won most of the crowd over anyway. It hurt him chasing the title for so long and forcing him to be the underdog. He would have been better off as a heel coming out of the Shield split maybe feuding with Cena then they turn on him.The biggest issue with Roman was everything seemed so obvious and forced that he was the next top guy. As a booker it shouldn't come across as such.

I'd say Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns at WrestleMania XXXI is probably the best main event in the history of the show.  The MITB cash-in for me doesn't take away from what Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns did. The other contenders are The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XXVI and Randy Orton vs. Batista vs. Daniel Bryan from WM XXX.

Edited August 25, 2019 by The Natural

[Ziggy]

2 minutes ago, The Natural said:

I'd say Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns at WrestleMania XXXI is probably the best main event in the history of the show.  The MITB cash-in for me doesn't take away from what Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns did. The other contenders are The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XXVI and Randy Orton vs. Batista vs. Daniel Bryan from WM XXX.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the cash in especially watching it as it happened but, I'm saying it did Roman Reigns no favors. If it was done as a Russo swerve then its makes less sense if you have intentions of Roman being your Ace

[The Natural]

Such a difference is quality from Lesnar/Reigns at WrestleMania XXXI to the rematches in 2018.

[SorceressKnight]

5 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

If the cycle wasn't [watch WWE show] -> [shit on WWE show online] -> [continue to watch WWE shows], the I'd argue that the fans could have a lot more power than they already do. Many seem unwilling to vote with their wallet by cancelling their Network subscription, not going to live events (including NXT), not buying merch, and not contributing to their YouTube views and social media numbers. If WWE is hemorrhaging fans (and they aren't - at least not to a significant enough degree), they will make changes. The Saudi and FOX deals are stop-gaps that won't save them if their fan base disappears.

This is all true, but it comes down to the other side of me blaming the fans: The WWE's relationship with its fans is utterly toxic, and this could be the biggest question with AEW's rise right now.

The problem with the fans was not just "oh, the fans are just whining they didn't get their way" with Roman Reigns being unpopular, or with John Cena being unpopular....but rather even when CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, and now Seth Rollins or Becky Lynch were on top, they still had some brushback from fans because of that hipster mindset and the "well, if I like the top star in WWE, I'll be seen as a...a MARK! I can't be seen as that- I have to remain cool and smarky more than anything, so I'll turn on this top star for some other downtrodden midcarder so people know how I'm a cool smark!"

That problem ties to the other issue in place. Make no mistake- when it comes down to it: We're not cool rebels. We're a bunch of old people complaining about a kids' show.  WWE is a kids' show at heart, and ultimately what kids want has to take precedent over what adult fans want if WWE is going to have sustainable success. Adults like it when the top star is a heroin addicted jazz critic who's not radioactive, and kids just want to see Roman Reigns punch people...and because it's a kids' show,  the latter takes precedent.

That fact also takes away the power the fans have, because eventually when the fans act that way? It'd be a stone groove for WWE to lose those fans, because eventually the power goes from "We're losing our fanbase to AEW, we have to make some changes to get them back and give them what they want", to "...the people we're losing to AEW is an acceptable loss for the greater good. Stay the course", and may have gone all the way to 'you know what? We won't negotiate with terrorists anymore. If they want to go watch AEW, let them...hell, we're probably better off without them because they're starting to turn families away from the show with their demands."

[SirSmUgly]

6 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

 

The Rollins cash-in.

That specific booking decision was made based on fan reaction; The fans are partially responsible for that specific booking decision. To suggest that the fans have no power over booking isn't accurate. It was the second Mania main event in a row to be altered because of crowd reaction.

If the cycle wasn't [watch WWE show] -> [shit on WWE show online] -> [continue to watch WWE shows], the I'd argue that the fans could have a lot more power than they already do. Many seem unwilling to vote with their wallet by cancelling their Network subscription, not going to live events (including NXT), not buying merch, and not contributing to their YouTube views and social media numbers. If WWE is hemorrhaging fans (and they aren't - at least not to a significant enough degree), they will make changes. The Saudi and FOX deals are stop-gaps that won't save them if their fan base disappears.

Right, but again, the point is that they never would have been in that situation without killing Reigns by putting him up against Bryan, who they had to change the WM 30 main event for because they didn't just let him have a little run with the title that he won at SummerSlam after beating Cena. So that's twice they used MITB in a way that was detrimental to their booking, and the first time they did it (at Summerslam, geez, what year was it now, 2012?) set off the chain of events that led to the crowd rejecting Roman Reigns, who just one year before the Brock match was massively over when he wrestled against the NAO at WM 30. That's a fuck-up on the part of the bookers. They booked poorly at the start and then continued to book poorly from a long-term perspective in reaction to the audience's reception of the initial booking of Bryan at Summerslam.

As for the cycle that you mention, that audience continues to dwindle, so it seems like more and more, people are choosing with their wallets. These pictures of half-empty arenas aren't being conjured up out of nowhere. 

The thing is that if the WWE loses these fans, they're fucked because they don't have the cultural cache or the creative ability to capture the casual fan at this point. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[AxB]

I'm not sure lumping 'the fans' into one group is entirely fair. They are individuals who seem to agree on a lot of things, yeah, but... Rydermania was hot with a lot of the fans, except the ones who thought he was a below par wrestler with an awful gimmick. When they were pushing Roman as the underdog with everyone against him, some people bought in. Just not most of them. 

Did anyone ever go to a show and join in with both sides of a duelling chant? Just that one guy in the Impact Zone, isn't it?

[Ace]

2 hours ago, The Natural said:

I'd say Brock Lesnar vs. Roman Reigns at WrestleMania XXXI is probably the best main event in the history of the show.  The MITB cash-in for me doesn't take away from what Brock Lesnar and Roman Reigns did. The other contenders are The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XXVI and Randy Orton vs. Batista vs. Daniel Bryan from WM XXX.

I really liked the storytelling in the match leading to the cash-in. Roman keeps taking big shots, and sells it while still getting back up each time. It's a pity that sort of thing was never followed up on and instead we got repeated visits to Suplex City instead,

 

[SirSmUgly]

In conclusion, the company should get rid of MitB. It's been used to good effect like three times that I can think of (Edge cash-in on Cena, RVD cash-in on Cena well in advance, Ziggler cash-in on ADR). 

All the other times, it ends up being a) a shocking swerve tool that creates more problems than it solves for the payoff of an immediate pop or b) a crutch that creative uses to get itself out of bad booking decisions that works in the very short term, but that fucks up their long-term plans entirely. 

If I'm missing a good example of a cash in that's happened since the end of 2016, please enlighten me. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[AxB]

Suplex City? Yeah, blame the fans for that one.

[MORELOCK]

45 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Right, but again, the point is

Your point, which you are belaboring, is that the booking sucks, which I never disagreed with. My point that you continue to look past is that in the particular example used, the fans are also accountable. 

The half-empty arenas also aren't new - which goes to my point that not enough fans are voting with their wallet to enact a significant change. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I think moving MITB back to Mania would be a better move, than to get rid of it completely. Felt like a great way to establish a guy with a win at the top of the card on the biggest show of the year. You’d think moving it to its own PPV would  be even better for the gimmick, but instead it feels like another B-Show on the schedule, instead of a star making match.

It also doesn’t help that there are two briefcases now as well. I mean if they get rid of it, then I would like them to establish a match that lines up two big title match at SummerSlam. Like how NJ has made the NJ Cup the mid calendar title shot tournament.

Edited August 25, 2019 by LoneWolf&Subs

[SirSmUgly]

23 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Your point, which you are belaboring, is that the booking sucks, which I never disagreed with. My point that you continue to look past is that in the particular example used, the fans are also accountable. 

The half-empty arenas also aren't new - which goes to my point that not enough fans are voting with their wallet to enact a significant change. 

OK, and your point, which you are belaboring, doesn't hold up in my opinion. I disagree that the fans are accountable. I apparently belabored that point by explaining how that reaction can be directly traced to an instance of snap booking on the part of the company, but you want to ignore that and parrot your original point. Fine. I don't think you're right and that putting accountability on the audience for their reaction to what the company chooses to present is silly. 

Also, yeah, the half-empty arenas aren't new, but they (along with house show cancellations) have happened quite consistently over this time, and ratings have certainly gone down over time as well. You yourself brought up that they're buoyed by TV money and Saudi Arabia, which probably explains why they're not bothering to change things even though they are bleeding viewership and can't fill an arena for most of their shows. 

If the conditions of the market were just as they were in, say, 1996, they would have changed up their programming already. In 2019, they don't need fans to show up to make money hand over fist. They could fully paper their shows a la WCW Worldwide in 1994 and eat off of their deals with FOX, USA, and the KSA. The fans matter less than they ever have to the company's bottom line, so your point about too many fans still showing up just to complain rather than walking away really has no merit. Let's move on from it.

EDIT: I think not allowing flash cash-ins was a necessary move. A briefcase could be okay with a mandatory time period for the challenger to prepare. But by the end of 2016, the company preferred to chase quick swerves for pops over long-term planning.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[John from Cincinnati]

I never want to see that stupid briefcase or cash-in gimmick ever again.

[Octopus]

I’m bored: Time Machine Booking. 8 match card. Pick the wrestlers and what year they’re from. Best cards get a trophy like.

[SirSmUgly]

I'd have to think about the whole card, but I would want to see a Jim Breaks/Santino comedy match. Santino'd be the face, of course.

[SorceressKnight]

1 hour ago, AxB said:

I'm not sure lumping 'the fans' into one group is entirely fair. They are individuals who seem to agree on a lot of things, yeah, but... Rydermania was hot with a lot of the fans, except the ones who thought he was a below par wrestler with an awful gimmick. When they were pushing Roman as the underdog with everyone against him, some people bought in. Just not most of them. 

Did anyone ever go to a show and join in with both sides of a duelling chant? Just that one guy in the Impact Zone, isn't it?

And honestly, this is related to the bigger problem that happens through the Internet: Happy people don't complain.

I know one of my bigger weaknesses is thinking the Internet is a monolith and everyone believes the same thing. They don't. And honestly, sometimes that's the whole problem. 

The IWC is big enough that, if they rise up as one and say "THIS. THIS is what we want", then we can get shit done and get what we want, more than even walking away. The Bryan example, the Rollins cashin...there's lesser examples, but when we make it clear 'this is what we want, this is exactly what we want"- then promotions are willing to meet us halfway.

However, again the problem is- no one of our voices matter, and to the WWE, or AEW, or NJPW, or any promotion, it's all one big amorphous blob of no specific meaning. And when that amorphous blob is satisfied and people aren't saying "this is awesome, thank you God!"...then suddenly the happy people go silent and step aside and the people who aren't happy about it start complaining.

When that happens, the Internet still looks like a monolith- but that monolith is saying to the companies 'we just want to complain." When that happens, the companies give us what we want- in "Ah, you're only happy when you have something to complain about? Fine. We'll do what we want, ignore your reactions, and then you'll have plenty of things to complain about, and then you'll be TRULY happy!"

[MORELOCK]

It's either:

"Fuck this company because they don't listen to what fans want."

or

"Fuck this company because when they listen to what the fans want, they don't look far enough into the future to realize that what the fans want is actually a shitty idea."

It cannot be both. They either listen or they don't. 

The fans booed Reigns relentlessly to the point that WWE was worried about his crowning moment. As a result, the booking was changed to something other than Reigns getting his crowning moment. The fans are partially responsible for that decision because they made the decision to reject Reigns by booing him out of the building. Nobody forced them to do that. This isn't an arguable opinion. It's history. Let's move on from it. 

[mattdangerously]

1 hour ago, OctopusCinema said:

I’m bored: Time Machine Booking. 8 match card. Pick the wrestlers and what year they’re from. Best cards get a trophy like.

Sweet Brown Sugar/Bobby Eaton vs Revival

NWA Champ Terry Funk vs 2014 Daniel Bryan

Kenny Omega vs Lightning Kid

Darby Allin vs 1995 Sabu

Andrade vs 1996 Eddie Guerrero

PCO vs Ishii (I know you don't need a time machine for this, but damn it, someone needs to book this match.)

Manami Toyota/Toshiyo Yamada vs Io Shirai/Kairi Hojo

1984 Hulk Hogan vs 2001 Steve Austin

[John from Cincinnati]

The company listens to the fans way too much when they’re really vocal. It’s why Becky was inserted into the Charlotte-Ronda Mania match we should have gotten.

Don’t @ me. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by West Newbury Bad Boy

[AxB]

2 hours ago, OctopusCinema said:

I’m bored: Time Machine Booking. 8 match card. Pick the wrestlers and what year they’re from. Best cards get a trophy like.

Koji Kanemoto & Shinjiro Otani vs Art Barr & Eddy Guerrero

Bruiser Brody & Cactus Jack vs Atsushi Onita & W*ING Kanemura

Hana Kimura & Jungle Kyona vs Akira Hokuto & Manami Toyota

David Starr vs Bret Hart

Marty Scurll & The Young Bucks vs Will Ospreay, Jushin Liger & Great Sasuke

Toshiaki Kawada vs Fit Finlay

Vader & Bigelow & Samoa Joe vs Steiner Brothers & Michael Elgin

Kenny Omega & Rich Swann vs Dynamite Kid & Rollerball Rocco

[Infinit]

Holy shit...Michael Elgin totally could've been a Steiner cousin.

[nate]

3 hours ago, OctopusCinema said:

I’m bored: Time Machine Booking. 8 match card. Pick the wrestlers and what year they’re from. Best cards get a trophy like.

One night Battlebowl tourney, featuring teams comprised of random pairings of these 16 wrestlers:

Peak Vader.  Peak Danielson.  Peak Samoa Joe.  Peak Sting. Peak Bret.  Peak Savage.  Peak Hennig.  Peak Owen.  Peak Liger.  Peak Eddie.  Peak Angle.  Peak Lesnar.  Peak Muta.  Peak Flair.  Peak Steamboat.  Peak Punk.

Battle Royal of the winners as the main, where the last two have a standard one-fall match.