JUNE 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION - Thread 2

[jaedmc]

1 hour ago, Boydy said:

Sorry if my suggestion annoyed everyone, I just see it being a possibility.

I was the first one to suggest on another forum about WWE turning Sami Zayn heel but that was to have him as a Pro Syrian Anti American heel. 

I wasn't trying to troll anyone, sorry and I wont suggest anything anymore.

You go ahead and keep suggesting anything you want.

 

[Craig H]

Jesus Christ.

NO ONE IS A DRAW

Not Rollins. Not Roman. Not Lesnar. Not AJ. Not Daniel Bryan.

NO ONE

Hell, if you had prime Stone Cold Steve Austin or the Rock in this environment, I'm not even sure they'd be a draw today.

So this comparison of Rollins to HBK as a face that doesn't draw is pretty dumb and that doesn't even touch the other HBK bullshit that other people have pointed out.

It's going to be a long time before WWE has someone who is any sort of a draw.

[Craig H]

Speaking of Rollins, now he's starting to really annoy me with this whole shtick of being a total company man:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2842662-seth-rollins-responds-to-jon-moxley-bashing-wwe-defends-vince-mcmahon-creative?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Just a couple things here. One, it's really shitty to claim that someone you call a friend and a brother can't handle the rigors of WWE and take issue with him citing how bad the booking is. Moxley took all of the bullshit that Vince and creative shoveled his way and he did his best to turn it into gold. And then later in this article is another quote from Rollins where it's up to the talent to make their voice heard, which was the exact fucking thing Moxley was doing.

His comments about Moxley are about the shittiest thing ever. If Rollins were a friend of mine saying this shit about me, he wouldn't be a friend anymore.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Craig H

[Dolfan in NYC]

1 hour ago, Boydy said:

Sorry if my suggestion annoyed everyone, I just see it being a possibility.

I was the first one to suggest on another forum about WWE turning Sami Zayn heel but that was to have him as a Pro Syrian Anti American heel. 

I wasn't trying to troll anyone, sorry and I wont suggest anything anymore.

The suggestions are fine, just the premise is absolutely not happening.  Hard and fast rule in WWE (since roughly - oh let's pull out a date and say - 12 years ago yesterday), men under no circumstances *intentionally* hit women.   

They're far, far too high profile a company to have to explain why a guy who's 6'3", 230 lbs., is beating up a 5'9", 140 lb. woman.  Intergender wrestling is not coming back to WWE tv any time in the near future, if ever again, period.   (and frankly, I'm okay with that).

And Sami being Pro-Syrian, whether they want him to be or not, will mean he's pro-Assad - and if you think a guy beating up a girl is problematic...  yeah...

[Craig H]

2 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

The suggestions are fine, just the premise is absolutely not happening.  Hard and fast rule in WWE (since roughly - oh let's pull out a date and say - 12 years ago yesterday), men under no circumstances *intentionally* hit women.   

They're far, far too high profile a company to have to explain why a guy who's 6'3", 230 lbs., is beating up a 5'9", 140 lb. woman.  Intergender wrestling is not coming back to WWE tv any time in the near future, if ever again, period.   (and frankly, I'm okay with that).

And Sami being Pro-Syrian, whether they want him to be or not, will mean he's pro-Assad - and if you think a guy beating up a girl is problematic...  yeah...

What about all the dudes who hit their finisher on Nia Jax this year?

[The Natural]

53 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Speaking of Rollins, now he's starting to really annoy me with this whole shtick of being a total company man:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2842662-seth-rollins-responds-to-jon-moxley-bashing-wwe-defends-vince-mcmahon-creative?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Just a couple things here. One, it's really shitty to claim that someone you call a friend and a brother can't handle the rigors of WWE and take issue with him citing how bad the booking is. Moxley took all of the bullshit that Vince and creative shoveled his way and he did his best to turn it into gold. And then later in this article is another quote from Rollins where it's up to the talent to make their voice heard, which was the exact fucking thing Moxley was doing.

His comments about Moxley are about the shittiest thing ever. If Rollins were a friend of mine saying this shit about me, he wouldn't be a friend anymore.

Seth bringing up money as well:

Don't bring that argument into it, Seth.

Edited June 25, 2019 by The Natural

[Sky Blue Sam]

I guess their justification is that Nia's billed weight is greater than Orton, and she's both taller and heavier than Rey so it's closer to being a fair fight

[Craig H]

Meltzer and Alvarez brought that up on WOR this morning that if you have to mention your bank account then you've lost the argument.

I'm starting to see why some of y'all don't like Seth. He's being a gigantic douchebag.

[For Great Justice]

3 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Meltzer and Alvarez brought that up on WOR this morning that if you have to mention your bank account then you've lost the argument.

I'm starting to see why some of y'all don't like Seth. He's being a gigantic douchebag.

I mean I get it. All traditional business indicators such as attendance, buys, ratings are in the toilet. I agree with the earlier notion that no one is a draw anymore but if you are Seth you are surely feeling the pressure of all this while you perceive yourself as “the guy”. 

Being a douchebag, nonetheless.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Plus, she's not like most girls

[SturmCRF]

Thing is, Seth can take issue with Ospreay, Moxley etc. as much as he wants, but he can't convincingly argue that WWE produce consistently compelling television. Yes the roster's great, yes there are often good to great matches in a vacuum, but there's still a lot of tedium and infantilised bullshit to get through even in an above average week of Raw and Smackdown. Also he's not a quarter of the pro wrestler Will Ospreay is, but at least that's mildly up for debate, the first bit really isn't.

[Ryan]

There was that time he dated the Nazi woman. Also, go watch his early indy wrestling for some fun stupid ideas.

[Elsalvajeloco]

48 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Hell, if you had prime Stone Cold Steve Austin or the Rock in this environment,

That's a chicken or the egg scenario. If they didn't have or for whatever reason SCSA and the Rock didn't work out in late 97 going into 98, WWE probably doesn't make it to 2019 at least in its current form.  That roster outside of them and a select few others (including Foley and Triple H) was putrid before 2000 especially compared to WCW pre complete complete meltdown. I don't think DX would have carried them in the Monday Night Wars. Plus, I doubt people would have left WCW if they didn't see WWF as a better option. Maybe they just keep jumping back and forth until AOL/Time Warner pulls the plug on WCW or Vince gets a TV deal so bad he has throw in the towel. They can't draw on a certain level because people know they can never make another Stone Cold or The Rock. It's impossible. You wouldn't have those figures in that environment to begin with. So yeah, you're going to do all time low ratings from week to week. I'm not sure where Shawn comes in because when WWF creative was hot, he was gone by then as a full time performer. Shawn deserves a lot of blame for being a dick obviously, but if he had stayed around after the Mania in Boston and wasn't drugged out and paranoid, he probably would have lasted long enough to do programs with Rock, Triple H, Mankind, and some type of an angle with Vince and Austin. How does that not draw in 1998 and 1999? He was still an amazing worker. That would have certainly made people forget he wasn't a draw. To me, it's apples and oranges. If Seth was in 1996 WWF, he would be jobbing to Justin Hawk Bradshaw or The Sultan and not headlining events.  He would have never got a shot.

[sabremike]

7 minutes ago, For Great Justice said:

I mean I get it. All traditional business indicators such as attendance, buys, ratings are in the toilet. I agree with the earlier notion that no one is a draw anymore but if you are Seth you are surely feeling the pressure of all this while you perceive yourself as “the guy”. 

Being a douchebag, nonetheless.

He's getting dangerously close to Mr Kennedy post Benoit level of "Someone needs to tell this guy to shut up because he's making himself look like a complete fool".

[The Natural]

18 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Meltzer and Alvarez brought that up on WOR this morning that if you have to mention your bank account then you've lost the argument.

I'm starting to see why some of y'all don't like Seth. He's being a gigantic douchebag.

So you concede my "Fuck off, Seth" yesterday was justified ; ).

[Craig H]

1 minute ago, The Natural said:

So you concede my "Fuck off, Seth" yesterday was justified ; ).

Well NOW I do

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I’ll concede another thing about the Seth & Shawn comparison. Shawn was a better shitty dancer.

[MORELOCK]

16 minutes ago, SturmCRF said:

Thing is, Seth can take issue with Ospreay, Moxley etc. as much as he wants, but he can't convincingly argue that WWE produce consistently compelling television. Yes the roster's great, yes there are often good to great matches in a vacuum, but there's still a lot of tedium and infantilised bullshit to get through even in an above average week of Raw and Smackdown.

 

Again, though: that wasn't the argument being presented. He specified in-ring wrestling, not anything else.

[Craig H]

If Seth had just stopped short at saying WWE is the best and he's the best or whatever he said at first, then fine. At that point he's just the guy promoting his company and promoting himself as the top guy.

And then I saw everything else he was saying on Twitter to Osprey and then there's that interview where he's butthurt over Moxley leaving.

Now he just comes off as a huge prick who seems to have lost sight of where he came from or what others are going through. He's just firmly in this WWE bubble, which is weird. You don't expect the anti-establishment dude who's always wearing Black Craft Cult shit to be Mr. Company Man.

[SirSmUgly]

11 hours ago, Custos said:

Well, considering the recent anti-British English rhetoric and the fact that I hail from ‘ Sarf Lundon’ (a real cockney, not like Ospreay and those Essex mockney wannabes ) it seems like language is more likely to be a foundation for division than unity. 

Peace and love, my bredren (appropriating Jamaican patwah being another quirk of Londoners)

Now I'm just jealous that you're from London and I'm not.

(Is there really an anti-British English rhetoric that's serious? People over here in 'Merica still think the Queen's sounds classy AF and even would probably love a Cockney accent despite any of the "My Fair Lady" bias that might have permeated our culture.)

(You folks are interesting people. I should post more in the food threads and in the world travel and "what's it like where you live threads" that I'm assuming we have and that I need to check out.)

EDITED TO TALK ABOUT WRESTLING: Did Jeff Jarrett at least draw any dimes in Memphis, or is Lawler THE DRAW, or at that point in the '80s, was wrestling itself so hot that almost anyone would have drawn in Memphis?

Edited June 25, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[SturmCRF]

15 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

 

Again, though: that wasn't the argument being presented. He specified in-ring wrestling, not anything else.

I don't think you can separate the wrestling from the other stuff cleanly though. Context matters, and if two wrestlers are having a match for stupidly explained reasons, or they're having a fundamentally well worked match that nobody cares about because it's their fifth together in two months, it's a less enjoyable match to watch. Seth vs AJ from a couple of months back is a great example, it's one of Seth's better matches, it was a fresh pairing and I'd struggle to justify less than four stars for it, but I wasn't excited for it beforehand and there was no big clamour to talk about it afterwards, because of how they presented it. Does anyone remember the build? Something something contract signing brawl, AJ suddenly acting vaguely heelish for no reason, probably a begrudging tag partners match against The Revival where they can't get along  but still beat The Revival, or maybe lose to them but not in a way that even slightly suggests being a full time tag team could have given the heels an edge. Total boiler plate. So then the crowd don't care particularly during the match, and AJ doesn't express concern one way or the other after the match. If they'd made a better go of presenting it as a dream match, and then sold its consequences for more than thirty seconds after it finished, people wouldn't have mainly forgotten it a couple of months later.

[John from Cincinnati]

25 minutes ago, Craig H said:

You don't expect the anti-establishment dude who's always wearing Black Craft Cult shit to be Mr. Company Man.

Don't worry. When it's time for him to move on, he'll do his obligatory shoot as part of the post-WWE attention seeking ritual. Then everyone will love him again.

[SorceressKnight]

7 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Dave and%or Dave's agent have been smart so far: bond movie, blade runner and Marvel movies. Good solid nerd resume. 

Even beyond that, Batista's best quality about his acting skills might be just how self-aware he is of his skills and limitations.

Unlike most actors, Batista seems to at least know what his limitation as an actor is: He's best used as the "big imposing-looking lead henchman who can carry a scene or two and give you a good 'first boss' fight for the hero", and so most of his movies use him as basically that.

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, Craig H said:

 And then later in this article is another quote from Rollins where it's up to the talent to make their voice heard, which was the exact fucking thing Moxley was doing.

 

People who universalize their experience and try to apply it to everyone else are so short sighted and ignorant.  "It worked this way for me so why can't it work for you?"  It's such a pet peeve of mine.  Austin and Rock, both, I think, said the same shit.  "You just gotta go knock down Vince's door and tell him your ideas!  It's what I did!"  Like Vince would have listened to day 2 Ringmaster Steve Austin with the same fervor he listened to million dollar earner Stone Cold.  What a fucking joke.  HHH and Vince listen to Rollins?  Cool.  It doesn't mean they'll listen to people they don't see as important or see as slotted at a certain spot like Ambrose.

47 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

 

Again, though: that wasn't the argument being presented. He specified in-ring wrestling, not anything else.

And the example he used was really a damning indictment of WWE, so that's just hilarious.  "We're awesome!  Did you people see that cruiserweight 3 way?!?!"  Oh, the three way between guys Vince couldn't pick out of a lineup in a division the company ignores?  That's the top guy's standard bearer example of how awesome their wrestling is?  LOOOOL amazing.

 

PS I got no dog in this fight.  I fast forward Will Ospreay's matches.  I just don't find his style entertaining.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Technico Support

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

People who universalize their experience and try to apply it to everyone else are so short sighted and ignorant.  "It worked this way for me so why can't it work for you?"  It's such a pet peeve of mine.  Austin and Rock, both, I think, said the same shit.  "You just gotta go knock down Vince's door and tell him your ideas!  It's what I did!"  Like Vince would have listened to day 2 Ringmaster Steve Austin with the same fervor he listened to million dollar earner Stone Cold.  What a fucking joke.  HHH and Vince listen to Rollins?  Cool.  It doesn't mean they'll listen to people they don't see as important or see as slotted at a certain spot like Ambrose.

The thing that was most frustrating about Rollins' interview is that he's well aware of the interviews Moxley has done. He's well aware that Moxley did everything Seth said you should do, which is raise your voice and blah blah blah. Shit, Moxley flew to Vince when his rehab was wrapping up to show him how invested he was in his own return and he wanted to plan out his return, but Vince wasn't having it. Moxley beat down Vince's door so many times. Also, he took his ball and went home? He completely fulfilled all of his obligations and didn't renew his contract. That's not taking your ball and going home. By that logic, everyone in American, Rollins included, should feel complacent for where they're at and never seek something better.