AEW - SUMMER 2019

[Technico Support]

53 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

On BTE they showed a clip of Bucks telling Knox Bar Wrestling he's not only signed but they wanted him to ref their match at Double or Nothing.  That was a boneheaded call but I at least see why he would get that misinterpreted.  But he should have had that clarified to him before saying it that's for sure.

And speaking of FFTF I never got around to saying it but I feel I might be the only one who liked Page/Sabian.  I agree that it seems nonsensical for a title contender to go 20 minutes with an unknown and that typically it would be a short match.  But I liked the idea of this relative unknown in Sabian not only acknowledging that but trying to make that not happen so he can prove himself.  I heard of the guy but it was a pretty nice introduction to him and I'm curious what he has in store.  So at least for me it was effective.  But it didn't help that it was a long match that was part of a show with other long matches.  Heck, I still haven't seen the main event and am not sure I feel an immediate need to.  But at least with TV format that shouldn't be as much of an issue.

I didn't mind Page/Sabian.  The storyline was that Page was more hurt than he let on, so Sabian hanging with him makes sense.  Also, from a real sports perspective, there are times when lower-ranked teams can hang with top teams.  Every year, the NFL is full of teams whose margin of loss or victory is a TD or  less.  Not saying every single match needs to be close but it's fine.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Technico Support

[Ace]

So far, All Out doesn't have a match that sells me like some of the previous shows yet.

Also, Cody absolutely has to lose.

 

[HarryArchieGus]

21 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I didn't mind Page/Sabian.  The storyline was that Page was more hurt than he let on, so Sabian hanging with him makes sense.  Also, from a real sports perspective, there are times when lower-ranked teams can hang with top teams.  Every year, the NFL is full of teams whose margin of loss or victory is a TD or  less.  Not saying every single match needs to be close but it's fine.

Great point.  And I agree on the match being pretty alright.  Tho, I do think Page needed to run thru him to help get him over as a top contender.  That and Sabian needs a gear stylist to separate him (and his obvious talent) from Joe Jobber.  

Edited August 13, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[Casey]

Jon Moxley versus Shawn Spears will be taking place on the second week of the TNT show.

[BEN!]

Lame comedy spots, Cornette ranting, people running to snitch to Cornette, people bitching about Cornette.  They're all bad and none are hills worth dying on.

Memphis Wrestling and SMW are good.

PG-13 > The Young Bucks.  Bob Armstrong > Kenny Omega.  Fight me in the streets if you disagree.

And Cody should have Porter Wagoner suit JJ Dillon in his corner.  Alright!

[Casey]

People agreeing with Cornette is bad too, but I'm not surprised you left that one out given the rest of your post.

[HarryArchieGus]

1 hour ago, BEN! said:

Lame comedy spots, Cornette ranting, people running to snitch to Cornette, people bitching about Cornette.  They're all bad and none are hills worth dying on.

Memphis Wrestling and SMW are good.

PG-13 > The Young Bucks.  Bob Armstrong > Kenny Omega.  Fight me in the streets if you disagree.

And Cody should have Porter Wagoner suit JJ Dillon in his corner.  Alright!

Cody, yeah maybe, but in general that is a splendid idea.  Somebody really oughtta be wearing a Porter suit.  A Dolly by his side would be even better.  But Dolly's one in a million.  

PG-13 are fundamentally stronger for sure.  I like the Bucks, but I won't say I don't share some of the criticisms of them that James E has shared in the past.  I'm just not as irrational about said criticisms to the point that I can't recognize their talent.  Ha, Bullet Bob and Kenny are apples and oranges.  Maybe the same could be said of Wolfie D and JC Ice and the Jacksons. 

If we all agreed how wrestling should be wouldn't that be kinda boring?  Let's not treat wrestling like US Politics.  I don't think it's all that bad that we have an old timer running his mouth about what he thinks is right and wrong.  Cornette's begrudging of the Bucks and Omega is petty and  childish.  Some of his gripes with AEW are overstated and silly.  Some of them are not.  Cornette was a terribly overrated booker, so why care so much?  I say that and follow with look at his OVW work.  What I've seen was incredibly boring.  And the talent were lamely (outdated) produced - especially when compared to Heyman's OVW run.  Some will say apples and oranges, and fair enough.  His ROH run was less than spectacular as well.  Smokey Mountain was good, certainly had some good bouts and angles, but overall pretty by the book, pretty pedestrian (no?).  Anyway, all just opinions.  

1 hour ago, Casey said:

People agreeing with Cornette is bad too, but I'm not surprised you left that one out given the rest of your post.

Why do you think it's so bad?  At the end of the day what does an opinion on wrestling really mean?  

Edited August 13, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[Tromatagon]

Let's really break shit down.  This isn't an attack on anyone here really, but it's for sure an attack on certain sentiments I see taken to an extreme at times.

Wrestling is a medium not a genre.  Room for everything.

You know what else suffers from this shit?  Comics.  Basic bitch random people think they're all superheroes.  They're not.  We know this, they don't.

Now this is just ignorant people not knowing the facts.

Wrestling is the same, but it seems to be the most hardcore fans that scream THATS NOT WRESTLING, not unknowing plebes outside of the target audience.

You know what else these randos think?  That wrestling fans are fucking stupid, and they're right, because you could have them read a non-superhero comic and realize it's a medium and not a genre but some motherfuckers that have studied wrestling their whole lives fail to understand this.  That's not wrestling!  It's killing the business.

You big stupid fucking dummies.

Do you say Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Superbad aren't movies because they aren't dramas?  No, because that would be the dumbest fucking thing in the world, but people are doing it with wrestling at an increasing rate.

If you don't like something and know it's not for you, totally different.  This is directed more to the people being fucks about it.

 

Like Cornette.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Tromatagon

[Matt D]

Pro Wrestling Westerns:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2wP-ov79cc (This won't embed)

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by Matt D

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Tromatagon said:

Let's really break shit down.  This isn't an attack on anyone here really, but it's for sure an attack on certain sentiments I see taken to an extreme at times.

Wrestling is a medium not a genre.  Room for everything.

You know what else suffers from this shit?  Comics.  Basic bitch random people think they're all superheroes.  They're not.  We know this, they don't.

Now this is just ignorant people not knowing the facts.

Wrestling is the same, but it seems to be the most hardcore fans that scream THATS NOT WRESTLING, not unknowing plebes outside of the target audience.

You know what else these randos think?  That wrestling fans are fucking stupid, and they're right, because you could have them read a non-superhero comic and realize it's a medium and not a genre but some motherfuckers that have studied wrestling their whole lives fail to understand this.  That's not wrestling!  It's killing the business.

You big stupid fucking dummies.

Do you say Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Superbad aren't movies because they aren't dramas?  No, because that would be the dumbest fucking thing in the world, but people are doing it with wrestling at an increasing rate.

If you don't like something and know it's not for you, totally different.  This is directed more to the people being fucks about it.

 

Like Cornette.

So about that....not to sound like the person (or persons) who got banned for a similar talking point in a past AEW thread but that little theory is going to get tested once they get those ratings back after the honeymoon phase is up. Then, it won't matter what anyone says for or against AEW specifically whether it's Corny or anyone on this forum. They (meaning the braintrust of Cody, the Bucks, Brandi, Omega, etc.) are in an interesting position because they can literally sign anyone they want who is free and clear. So the temptation is to not only sign the hottest rising talent and free agents, but your independent amigos as well. Once the television starts up, they are beholden to TNT not the IWC. Just like any other company past or present, they are going to be in a conundrum at some point whether to feature the talents and subsequent angles that actual draw ratings more and cut down if not all the way out the shit that doesn't work. The latter can be a variety of things whether it's the goofy play wrestling bullshit Cornette goes on and on about or someone getting stapled gunned in the head or Darby Allin legit breaking his back doing the coffin drop. The question is are they going to be like WCW, Lucha Underground, or TNA/Impact and double down which will ultimately get them cancelled. If they do the smart thing, then they will piss off someone they currently have signed (or about to sign) because they will feel underutilized or marginalized once their role gets reduced. Then, we will see how loyal some of these folks are and which ones are jumping on the hot hand. Someone will want their release or quit due to "creative differences".

And BTW, using movies is a terrible analogy because we've seen in the film industry forever what gets made is dictated on success of past projects. On the mainstream level, very few promotions in America out of the several thousand that have existed since Vince went national have been successfully to the point of being on national television. There have been more movies that crossed a billion dollars in the last year and a half than promotions the size of WWF and WCW since the mid 90s. Yeah, you can make a bunch indie and art films about someone shitting in the woods or staring off into the sunset but Bob Iger is not going to make those films just because they all get 96% on Rotten Tomatoes from six or seven reviewers total who saw them at their local arthouse theater. Hell, Disney shitcanned a bunch of Fox projects under the previous regime due to some of them not fitting in with the Disney mold. So you tell Iger that there is room for everything. AEW is on a totally different level now than an independent promotion that runs a bunch of the stuff Cornette complains about whether he is right or wrong (again, I certainly don't agree with at least some of his rhetoric). Unfortunately, not everything people envision fitting into their all inclusive wrestling dream promotion is going to make it. That's the harsh reality, but no one should expect that anyway. Thus, I agree with Cornette on that.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[Niners Fan in CT]

There is room for more than what Iger is willing to produce though.  Movies like "IT" that cost nothing to make can go on and make $700M+ at the worldwide box office and end up being more profitable than some of the run of the mill family movies or even some of the Marvel movies he puts out.  

Sure, that's not Disney.   Disney isn't in the business of putting out R rated content.  They will try to bullshit people that FOX isn't going away or that you could see Daredevil or somehting pop up on Hulu but it probably won't happen.  Disney isn't going to do it. 

But Warner Bros. can do it and Universal can do it.  Yeah,  Disney is making a killing now especially this year with using all their old IPs and wrapping up this Marvel phase but I don wonder outside of the MCU if they will switch anything up in the future once they run out of Lion King and Aladdin bullshit. 

AT&T and Comcast can see that you can still make a lot of damn money off movies that aren't the cookie cutter 4 quad stuff. 

To bring this back to wrestling,   it seems like there might be more room than just what WWE is currently presenting.  I'm not going to pretend to know what will push ratings.  We've seen that women's wrestling can get ratings at times but we've also seen that they can lose viewers,   we've seen language and sexual content can drive ratings but we also saw in TNA that just because something is vulgar or extra violent doesn't mean people will watch it.  

I think there's an interest there.. it says something that Double or Nothing did so well.  It says something that these other shows are selling out so quickly. I think there's room for an alternative to WWE but I don't know what avenues will be best to travel.  It's going to be a big long learning curve.    AEW is willing to take risks and spend the money.  How willing will TNT be to sit idle.  How willing will they be to give all of this stuff a fair chance. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

There is room for more than what Iger is willing to produce though.  Movies like "IT" that cost nothing to make can go on and make $700M+ at the worldwide box office and end up being more profitable than some of the run of the mill family movies or even some of the Marvel movies he puts out.  

The thing is how many films does Warner Bros. make like the biggest Disney films in a given calendar year? WB needs It Chapter Two (or Joker which probably didn't cost much to make compared to most comic book movies) to be wildly successful due to other films underperforming so it's not extra icing on the cake whether it cost 15 million to make or 150 million to make. They don't have films that are going to break records like an Endgame or a Star Wars trilogy.

Keep in mind with some of these major film studios struggling (I brought Iger in the previous post because he pretty much laid into the Fox film division recently), the mini majors/big independent distributors like Annapurna and STX Entertainment that have these large wide releases are on the verge of going out of business really soon. As much "room" as you might see being created, that doesn't mean there is enough to sustain these business models. Disney can do it because they are fucking Disney, and thus they dictate the trends. So no, you don't have room for everything.

 

[Tromatagon]

Where did I talk about ratings or financials?  I was talking about people being fucking assholes.

 

Room for everything doesn't mean room for everything at the top, btw.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Tromatagon

[Matt D]

Deep Southern Gothic Pro Wrestling?

 

[Jiji]

So nearly a snuff film. I have mixed feelings on that one.

[Tromatagon]

If he really wanted to sell it, he would have shit his pants.

[Niners Fan in CT]

3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The thing is how many films does Warner Bros. make like the biggest Disney films in a given calendar year? WB needs It Chapter Two (or Joker which probably didn't cost much to make compared to most comic book movies) to be wildly successful due to other films underperforming so it's not extra icing on the cake whether it cost 15 million to make or 150 million to make. They don't have films that are going to break records like an Endgame or a Star Wars trilogy.

I mean they did at one point. The Lord of the Rings trilogy and the Harry Potter saga was the biggest shit in the world at one point.  The Dark Knight trilogy was huge.  Universal had the Jurassic Park movies and the Fast movies that were doing $1.5 billion and $1.6 billion not long ago..  

Those are all tent poles for sure but I like where a studio can produce a movie that cost upwards of $200M and then come back with the low risk/high reward stuff like The Conjuring series that is always going to print money for WB.   $30M budgets and they rake in $200M-$300M+  worldwide.   Or with Universal they will go and give Peele a big opportunity with Get Out and he knocks it out the park so they come back with Us and he knocks that out of the park.  I think there is definitely a room for all of this. 

I'm also not sure how much AT&T and Comcast care about their movie studios,  obviously they care to a degree but  their portfolio is everything.  They control the phone and internet and television industry. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, Tromatagon said:

Where did I talk about ratings or financials?  I was talking about people being fucking assholes.

You can talk about that in the asshole thread. We'll discuss AEW in the AEW thread. Thanks.

20 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

To bring this back to wrestling,   it seems like there might be more room than just what WWE is currently presenting.  I'm not going to pretend to know what will push ratings.  We've seen that women's wrestling can get ratings at times but we've also seen that they can lose viewers,   we've seen language and sexual content can drive ratings but we also saw in TNA that just because something is vulgar or extra violent doesn't mean people will watch it.  

I think there's an interest there.. it says something that Double or Nothing did so well.  It says something that these other shows are selling out so quickly. I think there's room for an alternative to WWE but I don't know what avenues will be best to travel.  It's going to be a big long learning curve.    AEW is willing to take risks and spend the money.  How willing will TNT be to sit idle.  How willing will they be to give all of this stuff a fair chance. 

It isn't about TNT giving it a fair chance. The execs aren't watching the shows. If people don't want to tune in, then they only way to change that is getting rid of what causes people not to tune in. It would be different if they had a previous TV deal, were successful, and then moved over to TNT (similar to Raw moving to TNN from USA). But as a television product, they've never been successful anywhere because they just started. They got no choice but to eliminate BS because people will pick and choose just like with Raw ratings patterns where people pick and choose.

[odessasteps]

In the old days, disney basically had a division for each rating: disney, hollywood pictures, touchstone and Miramax. Now, who knows? 

[Jiji]

3 minutes ago, Tromatagon said:

If he really wanted to sell it, he would have shit his pants.

You do not see his backside after he nearly dies. How do you know he didn't?

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You can talk about that in the asshole thread. We'll discuss AEW in the AEW thread. Thanks.

It isn't about TNT giving it a fair chance. The execs aren't watching the shows. If people don't want to tune in, then they only way to change that is getting rid of what causes people not to tune in. It would be different if they had a previous TV deal, were successful, and then moved over to TNT (similar to Raw moving to TNN from USA). But as a television product, they've never been successful anywhere because they just started. They got no choice but to eliminate BS because people will pick and choose just like with Raw ratings patterns where people pick and choose.

You're right about that they don't have the reputation. By fair chance I mean how long will TNT allow them to do their thing until they step in and start demanding this or that because it will happen eventually. It happens to WWE all the time with the USA Network.  Executives love to make "suggestions" and they are not shy about it. 

So AEW will have their segment breakdowns and those quarterly ratings or whichever way it will be printed out will show what people are liking and what people are tuning out. They will have to roll with what's working and eliminate what's not,  eventually.  I don't know how long they will give it or how long TNT will be best buds with them.  Everything will be fine for the first few weeks and then we'll see where they stand. 

[Matt D]

Psychological Thriller pro wrestling?

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I mean they did at one point. The Lord of the Rings trilogy and the Harry Potter saga was the biggest shit in the world at one point.  The Dark Knight trilogy was huge.

But do they have it now?

11 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Those are all tent poles for sure but I like where a studio can produce a movie that cost upwards of $200M and then come back with the low risk/high reward stuff like The Conjuring series that is always going to print money for WB.   $30M budgets and they rake in $200M-$300M+  worldwide.   Or with Universal they will go and give Peele a big opportunity with Get Out and he knocks it out the park so they come back with Us and he knocks that out of the park.  I think there is definitely a room for all of this. 

I'm also not sure how much AT&T and Comcast care about their movie studios,  obviously they care to a degree but  their portfolio is everything.  They control the phone and internet and television industry. 

For every Conjuring universe movie, you have flops like The Kitchen and Shaft which both cost $30 million or more to make. And neither film represents "room" because one is very similar to a film that came out last year (Widows, which itself was a remake of a UK work) even though it's based on a Vertigo miniseries. The other is a continuation of a blaxploitation classic. Point is Hollywood traditionally, especially in very recent history, is not going to take a bath on something that hasn't already existed and been somewhat successful. In a similar vein, TNT is hoping AEW to be 95-early 98 WCW and not ECW on TNN with Spike Dudley bleeding buckets and flaming tables to 0.7 ratings.

[Matt D]

Japanese Schoolgirl Bully Drama Pro Wrestling?

 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

32 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

So nearly a snuff film. I have mixed feelings on that one.

Snuff films aren't for everyone.