MAY 2019 WRESTLING TALK

[SirSmUgly]

Yeah, that shot at Brock was hilarious. Boombox shit aside that I've seen in the GIFs - and it is funny - by the time I'd stopped watching, Brock was wrestling sporadic mediocre matches at the top of the card and not really doing anything for me as a viewer.

Though of course, it's not Brock's fault that Vince can't run a show anymore. I guess there's still heat on Moxley's side for that really short match they had? I seem to recall him wanting to do some different stuff with Brock in that match and most of it getting shot down, but I could just be dreaming that up. 

[mattdangerously]

53 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Dude, this is the most semantic argument of all time.  You are basically arguing that a square is a rectangle but a rectangle isn't a square.  Everybody knows that.  WWE is the top of the wrestling industry, for about 20 years it is the goal for everyone who starts wrestling...especially in the United States.  All of these people worked their asses off to reach the top of the industry, and instead of being happy they were made miserable.  They reached their goals, were living their dreams, but their love and passion was slowly rung out of them.  

 

1 hour ago, Eivion said:

Yes, they hate working for WWE. WWE is not wrestling, or more to the point it doesn't represent wrestling as a whole. Its a ridiculous statement and idea that fans beyond WWE need to move away from. There is a difference between I don't want to work for WWE, and I hate wrestling.  

You're both making good points, actually. This isn't really an either/or situation--Moxley may have hated working in the WWE, but as soon as he could, he signed on to work for damn near every other promotion around, it seems. So clearly, he doesn't hate wrestling. Someone like Punk, though, really seems to have had all the love he ever had for the business obliterated by his experiences in the WWE. It works both ways.

[mattdangerously]

4 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Yeah, that shot at Brock was hilarious. Boombox shit aside that I've seen in the GIFs - and it is funny - by the time I'd stopped watching, Brock was wrestling sporadic mediocre matches at the top of the card and not really doing anything for me as a viewer.

Most of his recent matches have been pretty good, at least. He seems to have put more effort into working a story into his Two Moves Of Doom act.

[Beech27]

21 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Times change. Vince is who he's always been, but he's twenty years older than he was at his peak (depending on how you define his peak). I don't care how active and fit you are, you're not going to be as sharp as you were and even a normal person (as opposed to an isolated billionaire) will have missed a few steps culturally. It's not so shocking that he's out of touch with his younger generation of performers and the audience they're connecting with. 

Yes. And, the problem with a malignant narcissist running things is that, the further the notion that their ideas are the problem spreads, the more likely they are to insist on those ideas being followed. Backing off would be admitting defeat; winning isn't enough, they have to win on their terms, because of those terms. So, the more people complain about Vince being the problem, the more likely he is to be the problem.

Aside: Meltzer's latest on WOR is that there are more people asking for a release, enough to count on two hands, some of whom are "shocking." So.

[supremebve]

30 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

It's not like the concept of hating what you love when you start doing it professionally is unique to the wrestling industry. I know plenty of people who have started their own business or managed to get a job involving something they're passionate about only to end up so burnt out and tired of it just due to the nature of the industry and associated pressures.

This is pretty common, but I also feel like this is different.  This is having all the resources to be great and not being allowed to be great.  This is turning one of the most well-realized characters on the roster into a prop comic.  This is taking the women's tag team titles off of a team that wants to work a harder schedule to defend them on all of their shows and putting them on a comedy duo who rarely wrestle and never win when they do.  This is taking the most over person in the company and putting him in a match with your washed up son-in-law.  The frustration isn't from reaching the top, the frustration is wanting to be the best in the world at something and the company you work for has no interest in being the best at anything.

30 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Maybe it has to do with most of these wrestlers growing up as ardent fans of wrestling, so they naturally care about the craft in a way that past generations of wrestlers were often athletes from other sports and not wrestling nerds?

This is the problem.  All of these people we are discussing want to be great.  They know what great wrestling is, they know what great promos are, they want to be the type of wrestlers they grew up idolizing.  Vince isn't a wrestling fan.  Do you think Vince keeps up with what's going on in any promotion other than his own?  I doubt he's watched a single match outside of a WWE match in the last 20 years.  He is more successful than he's ever been despite the fact that his shows feel less successful than they've ever felt.  He runs the biggest wrestling company in the world, except it doesn't provide a satisfying product for wrestling fans.  Good for him, but the true wrestling fans on the roster are never going to be satisfied with the current product.  

[Technico Support]

The "shocking" one is actually Linda.

[odessasteps]

37 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

It's not like the concept of hating what you love when you start doing it professionally is unique to the wrestling industry. I know plenty of people who have started their own business or managed to get a job involving something they're passionate about only to end up so burnt out and tired of it just due to the nature of the industry and associated pressures.

It’s often said in journalism and academia that the quickest way to stop loving something is to cover/study it. I had a prof in grad school who read comics but would not teach them for that reason. 

[Technico Support]

5 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 I doubt he's watched a single match outside of a WWE match in the last 20 years. 

I remember the story of Freddie Prinze Jr. on a plane with Vince.  Prinze was watching some comedy program on his phone and Vince was flabbergasted he wasn't watching WWE.  Prinze told him he wanted some comedy, to which Vince replied, "well, watch some Santino!"  The man is absolutely in the WWE bubble.  No valid content whatsoever exists outside of it to him.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Technico Support

[SirSmUgly]

13 minutes ago, mattdangerously said:

Most of his recent matches have been pretty good, at least. He seems to have put more effort into working a story into his Two Moves Of Doom act.

That's good. When motivated, he's enjoyable in-ring. 

[John from Cincinnati]

8 minutes ago, supremebve said:

This is the problem.  All of these people we are discussing want to be great.  They know what great wrestling is, they know what great promos are, they want to be the type of wrestlers they grew up idolizing.  Vince isn't a wrestling fan.  Do you think Vince keeps up with what's going on in any promotion other than his own?  I doubt he's watched a single match outside of a WWE match in the last 20 years.  He is more successful than he's ever been despite the fact that his shows feel less successful than they've ever felt.  He runs the biggest wrestling company in the world, except it doesn't provide a satisfying product for wrestling fans.  Good for him, but the true wrestling fans on the roster are never going to be satisfied with the current product.  

In Vince's defense, he's probably busy as all fuck most of the time and doesn't have time to watch other shit. And he doesn't necessarily see himself competing in the same space as more boutique promotions that appeal to hardcore wrestling fans. 

He's been around enough that he should be able to read where the heat is with his audience and go with it regardless of what anyone else is doing. He's not doing that, so fair play. But I think you're putting a bit too much on him.

I also don't buy that Vince isn't a wrestling fan. He's a fan of certain things, and thinks certain things work better commercially. I also believe he has a complex about being seen as a sleazy wrestling promoter. But the notion that he outright doesn't like wrestling? Nah.

But he doesn't have that touch right now. That much is clear. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by West Newbury Bad Boy

[supremebve]

1 minute ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

In Vince's defense, he's probably busy as all fuck most of the time and doesn't have time to watch other shit. And he doesn't necessarily see himself competing in the same space as more boutique promotions that appeal to hardcore wrestling fans. 

 He's been around enough that he should be able to read where the heat is with his audience and go with it regardless of what anyone else is doing. He's not doing that, so fair play. But I think you're putting a bit too much on him.

 I also don't buy that Vince isn't a wrestling fan. He's a fan of certain things, and thinks certain things work better commercially. I also believe he has a complex about being seen as a sleazy wrestling promoter. But the notion that he outright doesn't like wrestling? Nah.

Do you think Vince ever watches wrestling just for the sake of enjoyment?

The disconnect is that I don't think he actually wants to be the best WRESTLING show.  He doesn't compete with companies who appeal to hardcore wrestling fans...because he doesn't want to be seen as putting on a wrestling program.  That is the root of the problem.  The people who are causing the fuss are wrestling fans who want to put on the best wrestling show...except that isn't their job.  It is, because it is the top of the wrestling industry, but it's not because the person in charge doesn't want to be WRESTLING.  He wants it to be some sort of all-encompassing variety show that features wrestling.  The one part of the Moxley interview that jumped out at me was when he said, "I'm a wrestler, if you want someone to learn lines hire an actor, they're probably better at it."  Jon Moxley has no desire to be a sports entertainer, he wants to be a wrestler.  He wants to go out there and cut a promo.  He wants to put on great matches.  He wants to be able to adlib, work the crowd, and have his character react in a way that feels natural.  He doesn't want to do slapstick comedy in a variety show.  

[John from Cincinnati]

2 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Do you think Vince ever watches wrestling just for the sake of enjoyment?

No. But I don't agree that this is a valid standard for judging executives, management, or any of the other busy people running this company. They see enough wrestling in the course of their professional day to day. I don't begrudge someone in that position not taking time to watch something "just for the sake of enjoyment." I don't consider it a requisite for putting on a competent wrestling program. 

[Brian Fowler]

I think one of the things worth thinking about is Jericho's bit about "I was never going to work anywhere else again. But I couldn't pass on the opportunity to work Omega." Okay, that's cool, but then when he got that creative freedom, he suddenly realized how much working for Vince sucked. He was allowed to just create, unfiltered. Same thing Moxley is saying about promos, about how it was his favorite part of the job and then it became the worst part.

I think there are two huge problems with the scripted promos: the scripts suck, and the wrestlers aren't trained actors. Actors put creativity and art into delivering lines someone else wrote. When they have good material to work with, it's creatively and artistically satisfying. When you aren't trained and skilled in that art, and the material sucks? Of course you'll feel creatively unfulfilled. Especially if you know how to do a more traditional wrestling promo.

A best case scenario here is WWE loosening up a bit to try and keep talent happy.

[HumanChessgame]

Has anyone ever discussed what sort of background the writers have and if they're actual wrestling fans? I know Jimmy Jacobs and a few other wrestlers have been on the writing staff from time to time, but for the most part is the writing staff just made up of people who have relevant degrees or TV show writing backgrounds but no understanding of pro wrestling itself?

[Brian Fowler]

4 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

Has anyone ever discussed what sort of background the writers have and if they're actual wrestling fans? I know Jimmy Jacobs and a few other wrestlers have been on the writing staff from time to time, but for the most part is the writing staff just made up of people who have relevant degrees or TV show writing backgrounds but no understanding of pro wrestling itself?

Allegedly, they mostly don't want wrestling fans.

[RIPPA]

3 minutes ago, HumanChessgame said:

Has anyone ever discussed what sort of background the writers have and if they're actual wrestling fans? I know Jimmy Jacobs and a few other wrestlers have been on the writing staff from time to time, but for the most part is the writing staff just made up of people who have relevant degrees or TV show writing backgrounds but no understanding of pro wrestling itself?

Frequently it has been stated that they want people who like wrestling (or are at least are aware of things like WrestleMania) but you can't be too big of a fan because then you are considered a mark and they don't take you seriously.

[supremebve]

6 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

No. But I don't agree that this is a valid standard for judging executives, management, or any of the other busy people running this company. They see enough wrestling in the course of their professional day to day. I don't begrudge someone in that position not taking time to watch something "just for the sake of enjoyment." I don't consider it a requisite for putting on a competent wrestling program. 

I didn't say it was a requisite for putting on a competent wrestling program.  It does mean that he's not a wrestling fan.  He watches wrestling because it is his business to watch wrestling.  He doesn't watch wrestling because he likes to watch wrestling.  So if you are a wrestler, who grew up a wrestling fan, who wants to put on the best wrestling show, it might not be the place you want to work.

[Brian Fowler]

Just now, supremebve said:

I didn't say it was a requisite for putting on a competent wrestling program.  It does mean that he's not a wrestling fan.  He watches wrestling because it is his business to watch wrestling.  He doesn't watch wrestling because he likes to watch wrestling.  So if you are a wrestler, who grew up a wrestling fan, who wants to put on the best wrestling show, it might not be the place you want to work.

A lot of people over the years have said Vince actually loves good wrestling, he just doesn't believe it sells.

[Technico Support]

1 minute ago, RIPPA said:

Frequently it has been stated that they want people who like wrestling (or are at least are aware of things like WrestleMania) but you can't be too big of a fan because then you are considered a mark and they don't take you seriously.

Clearly the solution is to hire wrestlers who also dislike wrestling.

[RIPPA]

That was the one thing that frustrated me with the Moxley interview.

He tried to not blame the writers and did admit at one point that it was unfair he was taking it out on them but he also acted like THEY SHOULD WRITE BETTER STUFF!!! when it is fairly obvious that the writers are writing for an audience of one - Vince. And they have learned the type of batshit crazy things that appeal to Vince and you have to assume that they are trying to get their stuff used so they feel like they are contributing.

[Tromatagon]

He was kind of being a huge dick to the guy he was taking it out on though, so I felt the apology was pretty warranted in that case.  That job fucking SUCKS.  Having wrestlers bitch you out on top of it makes a shitty job even worse.

[odessasteps]

Cornette told the story this week about the creation of Fake Diesel and Fake Razor. 

In short, Vince came up with the idea of a whim and then everyone had to try and figure out the how to make it passable. This included Jim having to go to the WWF studios where the ring was set up and “teach” Jacobs and Bogner how to work like Hall and Nash. 

[SirSmUgly]

Whoever they hire to write is definitely trying to justify their checks with those overwritten promos that don't sound anything like how people actually talk. 

Everything they say in that company needs to be edited for overwriting. It's not a title shot, it's a title opportunity. It's not the fans, it's the WWE Universe. Who the fuck talks like that?

Holy shit, I remember heel Seth Rollins coming out and sounding like he was thumbing through a fucking thesaurus when, "I'm the greatest wrestler alive, no one can beat me" would have sufficed. Twenty minutes of thesauraus-talk instead of thirty seconds of "I'm the greatest, I'll beat anyone's ass."

I miss those 30-second inset promos or the fifteen-second spots at the beginning of a SNME because to me, those were really quite indicative of great talkers in their own way. If you can get across your character, your motives, and what you plan to do next in thirty seconds, you're good at a very important part of pro wrestling. Now, unless they've brought them back, you never see those promos because Vince has to justify hiring TV writers and those writers have to justify their jobs and we would get these long, droning promos that sound like a computer AI trying to figure out human speech. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[John from Cincinnati]

6 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 It does mean that he's not a wrestling fan.  He watches wrestling because it is his business to watch wrestling.  He doesn't watch wrestling because he likes to watch wrestling.  

There are a number of wrestlers who get caught up in the grind and don't watch anything that's not the show they're on. Am I too assume none of them are wrestling fans either?

I find this to be strange gate keeping. Especially given the point @Brian Fowler just made. 

Told you I had an awesome semantic argument in me! 

[John from Cincinnati]

13 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Clearly the solution is to hire wrestlers who also dislike wrestling.