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The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries


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1 hour ago, Kuetsar said:

Who the fuck didn't call Raven?

Everybody thought he was just a spoiled rich kid, whining about his life, but maybe he had a point.  Maybe it's time we all ask ourselves, "what about Raven?"

Edited by supremebve
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I got to be perfectly frank, my opinion of Howard Stern isn't very high for instigating those confrontations with Kanyon either. Howard Stern is not a very tactful or introspective interviewer. I also think people give him far too many passes.

Here is my question, did Howard Stern care about Kanyon's wellbeing? Did he ever ask how he was doing? I doubt it.

Edited by TheVileOne
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Stern was pretty good at throwing out machismo to his male guests to brag about shit, and open themselves up to things they wouldn’t say in an ABC interview. Go watch his Phil Hartman interviews. That’s the most Phil is open about his rocky relationship history, and threw up red flags about what would ultimately be his last. Hartman comes off as very unlikable in them, and you realize he might’ve bit off more than he could chew in that marriage.

Not saying he was this tactful interviewer, or that the interviewee was completely on the level. Just that his personality, and his desire to push boundaries made him stumble onto weirdly honest interviews about a subjects twisted psyche. 

I don’t know how good he still is, but I’d be surprised if he still gets into dark places with these guests anymore. Just because Stern isn’t that same person he was in the 90’s.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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6 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Here is my question, did Howard Stern care about Kanyon's wellbeing? Did he ever ask how he was doing? I doubt it.

That's not part of Stern's job, though.  He probably barely knew who Chris Kanyon was.

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I haven't listened to Stern since maybe 2013ish or something like that, when I stopped my XM subscription and pirating became too much of a pain.  I can tell you that, by that point, he'd mellowed considerably and had become one of the most introspective and effective interviewers out there.  Of course, that's a low bar nowadays where anyone interviewing a celebrity is lobbing softballs because they're scared of losing access.  But anyway, his interviews became such a thing that he compiled them in a book a few years ago.  Modern Stern is not 1998 Stern.

Edited by Technico Support
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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

Was it his job to set up a Cena and Kanyon verbal confrontation on the show?

The Stern show did things like all the time, he'd be interviewing someone then go "I have so & so on the line, they say you did this or that" then either the in studio person squirmed and tried to talk there way out of it or there was an argument. It was super shitty but there was so much other shitty things going on that it kind of gets lost in the shuffle.

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25 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

The Stern show did things like all the time, he'd be interviewing someone then go "I have so & so on the line, they say you did this or that" then either the in studio person squirmed and tried to talk there way out of it or there was an argument. It was super shitty but there was so much other shitty things going on that it kind of gets lost in the shuffle.

Radio guys (specifically folks like Stern and Opie & Anthony back in the day) would do that all the time. That's nothing unusual especially when you have 4 or 5 hours of content to fill up. WWE had a pretty good connection with the major Sirius/XM shows to the point where even Vince called into O&A once. I'm more shocked Kanyon didn't have a rebuttal planned because it's not like that's some shit Stern was above doing. Hell, I would even expect that to happen given WWE folks would appear as guests all the time. 

I chalk that up as something of it's time because now WWE wouldn't allow people to engage in arguments with people outside the company like that unless it's a clear work. All it takes is someone to bring up one smoking gun, and it will get ugly quickly. Everyone isn't going to sit there and reserved like Kanyon did.

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Thought this ep was a mess in a lot of ways.  Wasn't sure what the point of view was supposed to be and who was supposed to be the sympathetic figure here.  A lot of the stories told make Kanyon out to be erratic or worse.  It's said in passing that Kanyon was bipolar but that's not put over strongly and leaves me with more questions than answers.  Was he really bipolar or did he just tell someone that?  Was he getting help?  I have a lot of sympathy for him if he was in treatment and properly medicated.  Not very sympathetic if he was refusing help.

Then there's the stuff with the WWE.  It's really hard to no what to believe when it comes to the company.  Vince doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, but the flimmakers don't even seem certain if the company knew Kanyon as gay.  Kanyon apparently told Mitchell he thought they knew, but the doc doesn't make it clear what that is based on.  Just a feeling?  And why the hell did Kanyon agree to the Boy George stuff?  He probably didn't expect the stiff beating UT gave him, but he had to know that skit wasn't going anywhere good.  And the whole thing is so demeaning.  I can't imagine I would ever agree to something like that.  I would guess he was afraid for his job, but, again, I'm filling in a lot of blanks instead of the doc suggesting some reasons.

I'm guessing no one knew Kanyon that well?  Either he was so closeted no one knew much about what was going on in his head or his erratic behavior pushed people away.

I kinda wonder what he was like in the locker room?  Vandenberg called him an unreliable narrator and made him out to be a danger to be around.  I can easily imagine him burying himself with Vince and the talent if he was pulling the stuff he pulled on Vandenberg in the locker room.  Or maybe not?  

Again, lots of questions, no answers.  Didn't feel like this episode got to know its subject well or had much of a point of view.  I feel like Kanyon was probably just self-destructive, but the episode didn't shed much more light on Kanyon than that (or even reinforce that idea).

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Yeah. Yeah. Same feeling. 

They didn't mention Onita's sex scandal or his public office stuff so there's that, also they never brought up Mike Awesome's suicide. I think either of those would have made everything just too dark. I mean Onita saying "Arai was a bad businessman, he could have asked me for the money" and knowing he didn't JUST GIVE HIM THE FUCKING MONEY is terrible. But this was a good episode. Having Hayabusa and Arai's daughters on there was very necessary. 

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If you're a dead wrestler in a DSOTR episode, they will find your daughter/s and interview them.

It probably would have also gotten a little too dark if they mentioned Fuyuki dying of cancer in 2003.

I guess it was for the best that they sorta summarized the WEW years as quickly as they could (even if they sorta told the story like FMW was Bedford Falls and Clarence the Angel was showing us it would have been Pottersville if Atsushi Onita had never been born)

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6 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Yeah. Yeah. Same feeling. 

They didn't mention Onita's sex scandal or his public office stuff so there's that, also they never brought up Mike Awesome's suicide. I think either of those would have made everything just too dark. I mean Onita saying "Arai was a bad businessman, he could have asked me for the money" and knowing he didn't JUST GIVE HIM THE FUCKING MONEY is terrible. But this was a good episode. Having Hayabusa and Arai's daughters on there was very necessary. 

I don't think Mike Awesome killing himself really has much of anything to do with the story of FMW. Fair point on the political stuff, though. They missed out on the chance to show stuff like this:

 

8uxi089wsta61.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&a

That's a ring made of sticks and rope, apparently.

Edited by Casey
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11 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

*Onita comments on Arai being a failed businessman*

I won't get a chance to watch it until this weekend, but this comment brings up my strong belief that Onita is one of the biggest scumbags in wrestling, but gets a pass by most of the wrestling community. 

In his memoir, Arai describes a least half a dozen times when Onita bullied his way back in to FMW and their bank accounts, leaving FMW worse off each time. I haven't read the (translated) Kodo Fuyuki book yet, but I'm curious to see how a third-party views it.

 

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I haven't watched it but assuming that Fuyuki booking was one of the things blamed for the downfall of product.  

It would be awesome if they showed one of the greatest tribute with Kanemura I believe holding the urn of Fuyuki willfully leaning into an exploding barbed wire

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3 hours ago, EricG said:

I won't get a chance to watch it until this weekend, but this comment brings up my strong belief that Onita is one of the biggest scumbags in wrestling, but gets a pass by most of the wrestling community. 

In his memoir, Arai describes a least half a dozen times when Onita bullied his way back in to FMW and their bank accounts, leaving FMW worse off each time. I haven't read the (translated) Kodo Fuyuki book yet, but I'm curious to see how a third-party views it.

 

They mentioned Onita returning and butting heads with Hayabusa and the 'new FMW' but made it seem like it was all about Onita's popularity and didn't talk about the finances. Maybe I'm spoiled because of @BAHU FMW Youtube series, but I guess they can only cover so much in 45 min. 

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4 hours ago, EricG said:

I won't get a chance to watch it until this weekend, but this comment brings up my strong belief that Onita is one of the biggest scumbags in wrestling, but gets a pass by most of the wrestling community. 

In his memoir, Arai describes a least half a dozen times when Onita bullied his way back in to FMW and their bank accounts, leaving FMW worse off each time. I haven't read the (translated) Kodo Fuyuki book yet, but I'm curious to see how a third-party views it.

if people like you or want to like you, you get a lot of passes.. Onita was reasonably close to being an action movie star with this FMW matches and the people who don't speak his language or deal with him regularly will give him a pass.

While I know the election method for the Japanese House of Councilors isn't exactly direct but more party list, remember that Onita was elected to office after all this. Then he left office because he set up a threesome with a porn star and a female government employee. Which will also get a pass even if he used "government accommodations" to make it happen.

Presumably the reaction is "you elected this guy to your upper house, what the fuck did you expect?"

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