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The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries


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8 hours ago, zendragon said:

Taker has told a very similar story about getting conned by Buzz Sawyer

With amount of Buzz stories that everyone has heard on and off the record, when is Buzz going to get his own Dark Side ep?

As for the (Jimmy) Garvin stuff, yeah it's very much hyperbole but Jimmy was pretty much a litmus test guy and done good work at multiple territories at that point. If you watch JCP around the time he came in, he got a ton of TV time. They were clearly setting him up for something.

On another note, does Magnum's ex-wife win the most naïve wrestling WAG in the history of time? This begs the question what would have happened if it was a Teddy Pendergrass situation where there was someone in the passenger side along with him at the time of the accident? Speaking as someone who was born a little too late after Teddy's musical prime/height of his recording career but old enough to understand the context of his influence on black R&B music, I realize for some (not all) that small detail changed the way how people viewed Teddy within the black community. It was like the consequences of the accident (Teddy never being able to walk again) became secondary. You had the infidelity factor. You also had people call his masculinity into question because the rumor that persisted for years was the occupant in the passenger seat was a transgender woman. It's one of awful gossip mongering things that has went on for decades.

It's hard to see the semi happy ending you had here that can be tied into a nice little bow happening if the serial cheater thing comes to light. In this particular episode, it's very much of an albatross cause it makes his (ex) wife look incredibly stupid and look like an even bigger fool than when Buzz ran that pyramid scheme/multi level marketing routine on Magnum and his folks. Yeah, he lost his career but man he's a real life superhero and inspiration.

 

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14 hours ago, Hamhock said:

Heel turn by TA as he smashes Undertaker in the lower back with the urn, then holds it against Taker’s back and belly-to-bellies him onto the urn. Taker suffers lower back pain so severe that he can’t do the zombie sit up.

Did Shane Douglas do many belly to bellys onto chairs in ECW? (Ideally dropping his opponent onto the chair but it’s 90s ECW)

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I have a hard time grasping how Magnum would have helped JCP turn a profit and not sell, if he'd have not gotten into the accident. I don't view him as a Hogan type but more of a relatable figure with definite charisma. I just don't see him as the type of guy to bolster a huge change from what inevitably happened with the company. Starting with his accident, you had a year generally before Turner bought the company. Maybe he gets the belt in December or in 1987, then what? They have a year to get JCP a profit. That's hard to do. I have no doubt he would've helped things but not like what they said on the doc. Hell, for all we know, he'd have ended up with Vince before the 90s came along, working as a mid-card act.

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It would have interesting to see how hot a program with Flair would have been. Would it have negated Crockett Jr.'s mismanagement? Probably not. They probably would have spent more money in that case if it had been more successful.

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13 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

A healthy Magnum would not have stopped Vince pulling the power play with Survivor Series and Starrcade. 

I don't think anyone disputes that, but how does the company look in the lead up to Starrcade 87?

From a similar type of scenario in the boxing world, before the complete oversaturation that started in the 2000s, a Bob Arum could have the entire slate to himself to promote a Thomas Hearns/SRL or Leonard/Hagler fight cause Don King wasn't dumb enough to try to run a lesser fight on the same night as Arum. The same goes for Don trying to promote a Tyson fight. They also weren't going to cannibalize their own business running their biggest fights against other. Moreover, the PPV distributors would have forced one to move to a different day. Plus, boxing promoters are smart to secure a backup date at the venue just in case some bullshit does arise.

At some point, Tyson overtook everyone so the distributors were going to prioritize Tyson whatever date Don King wanted. So if you were trying to compete, you better put your shit on ABC Wide World of Sports or CBS cause you're not getting that date. That's been a consistent trend for several decades now with folks like De La Hoya, Pacquiao, Mayweather, and Canelo blocking off Cinco de Mayo and Mexican Independence Day weekend. You didn't fight on those days unless you were a mega draw or a big draw at the very least.

The most important component is that Vince got their first. Had Crockett been able to present something comparable to WrestleMania between the two and half years between WrestleMania in 1985 and Starrcade 1987, that's a more compelling scenario. These distributors would have intervene and there would have been no ultimatum. Someone would have moved off the date, and both would have been available for every major market. I am not saying they would totally call Vince's bluff as much as Vince would have played the long game. He did the same thing when it came down to the PPV splits with the distributors. He ain't stupid enough to ACTUALLY challenge the PPV distributors. He would have tried to outlast Crockett and likely would have succeeded just cause Crockett wouldn't be able to replicate it like Vince easily could.

Under a scenario like that with Magnum taking off as a draw but not a super draw (just cause that's hard to forecast), he probably buys JCP another 9-12 months before they have to sale.

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A healthy Magnum makes JCP in much better shape in 1987 and beyond because they don't have to rely on Dusty to be their #1 babyface as his shelf life was reaching its end. Then from there you get a pretty interesting butterfly effect. Do we get the Ronnie Garvin title reign? Probably not; Magnum would have gotten the title. Do we get Lex Luger turning babyface? Probably not; Magnum would've needed a strong heel to face after fending off Flair and it would've been too soon to go back to Nikita (who doesn't turn babyface in 1986 and remains a strong heel).

I could easily see a JCP top babyface crew of Magnum, Barry Windham, Ronnie Garvin, and Dusty with Sting coming up as he did in early-1988 against the Horseman and the Koloffs, and it's pretty strong. Not to mention Magnum as top babyface would've freshened things up considerably.

Remember, where things tank for JCP was when they panic bought the UWF and tried to run that territory separately without realizing why the UWF crashed, losing a ton of money in the process. Do they make that move if they haven't lost Magnum or let Watts fold and pick up the folks they felt had value and WWF wouldn't scoop (Steiner, Williams... Sting is a maybe, although he would've been too close to Warrior who had just been brought in and I could see WWF passing on him then)? I don't know if they do.

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Yeah I can see a ripple effect where it makes JCP way healthier. The houses went down. They made panic moves. Some of that is alleviated if they run with Magnum and it works. He wasn't quite a Hogan level draw but he definitely surpasses Dusty as a draw I think. The chase run with Flair leading to Starrcade could have done record business. The hated over the top sexualized gaudy guy vs the man of the people heartthrob the women are dying to get with guy. It would have been an incredibly successful piece of business.

Ultimately it all comes down to if they burn their money buying UWF still. We saw how that played out without Magnum. Even with Magnum that would be doomed to fail. Are they confident enough with him as the guy that they don't need to make that move? Or does the hubris hit even harder and they think they're bullet proof with magnum and still crash and burn with that? It's kind of a two part question. Had Magnum been able to be crowned business is better, but if that UWF thing still happens it still all falls apart.

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Didn't Jimmy also buy whatever was left of Central States and Florida? Hell of a purchase if he did.

I will say this: One hot program doesn't make a company. Now it definitely helps if you have a remarkable, intelligently crafted centerpiece like Hogan-Andre. However, at that time, you needed multiple things underneath to keep that train rolling especially if planning to spend probably more money than you're taking in. It's not like Crockett didn't have great years before 87. It was the ability (or lack of) to sustain it. 

One of Jimmy's mistakes was thinking he could just simply buy depth without already having something in play already. In the NBA, you don't try to sign a supermax player with only one other All-Star, a bunch of garbage, and believe you can win now. You're going to win some games cause you probably have two really good players, but the best teams with guys who have been there for years in those roles are going to beat the brakes off you when it really matters. 

Yes, Vince raided talent but he also used them to the best of their ability with some exceptions.

If you didn't know better, if you saw how JCP vs. UWF played out culminating in Starrcade 87, you would have thought UWF was this made up company designed to have guys job to the Crockett guys. It's a night and day difference in the utilization of the talent.

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The reason I don't think the UWF purchase happens is because they were really scrambling in the months after Magnum's crash to figure out exactly what to do. Watts (and Jim Ross, who if I remember right, was the one who brokered the deal) went in and said "if you don't buy us, Vince will, and you're screwed". JCP was in a weak position having just lost their #2 babyface and who they felt was the future of their company, and made what they probably felt was a good choice. And really, if they had just taken Watts' syndication network and talent, and opted not to try and run the territory, that actually could have worked. But I don't think anyone was in the right frame of mind to look at Watts' territory cratering, having lost something like 70-80% of their prior year's business.

So even with a healthy Magnum, the UWF purchase might still happen, but they might also be a little smarter about how they implement it instead of just buying it and hoping it's working instead of wondering why Watts wanted out in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Didn't Jimmy also buy whatever was left of Central States and Florida? Hell of a purchase if he did.

JCP bought Central States in summer 1986 and sold it back to Geigel at the same time they bought Florida. Both purchases were as well thought out and smartly planned as the UWF ones.

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1 hour ago, Sparkleface said:

The reason I don't think the UWF purchase happens is because they were really scrambling in the months after Magnum's crash to figure out exactly what to do. Watts (and Jim Ross, who if I remember right, was the one who brokered the deal) went in and said "if you don't buy us, Vince will, and you're screwed". JCP was in a weak position having just lost their #2 babyface and who they felt was the future of their company, and made what they probably felt was a good choice. And really, if they had just taken Watts' syndication network and talent, and opted not to try and run the territory, that actually could have worked. But I don't think anyone was in the right frame of mind to look at Watts' territory cratering, having lost something like 70-80% of their prior year's business.

So even with a healthy Magnum, the UWF purchase might still happen, but they might also be a little smarter about how they implement it instead of just buying it and hoping it's working instead of wondering why Watts wanted out in the first place.

That's an interesting thought because if the UWF deal doesn't happen, Sting doesn't join the NWA. At least not when he did. 

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12 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

The reason I don't think the UWF purchase happens is because they were really scrambling in the months after Magnum's crash to figure out exactly what to do. Watts (and Jim Ross, who if I remember right, was the one who brokered the deal) went in and said "if you don't buy us, Vince will, and you're screwed". JCP was in a weak position having just lost their #2 babyface and who they felt was the future of their company, and made what they probably felt was a good choice. And really, if they had just taken Watts' syndication network and talent, and opted not to try and run the territory, that actually could have worked. But I don't think anyone was in the right frame of mind to look at Watts' territory cratering, having lost something like 70-80% of their prior year's business.

So even with a healthy Magnum, the UWF purchase might still happen, but they might also be a little smarter about how they implement it instead of just buying it and hoping it's working instead of wondering why Watts wanted out in the first place.

JCP buys UWF if there was no accident, Ross and Watts combined carny powers were no match for a mark like Jim Crockett Jr.

Everyone needs to remember that Crockett wasn't some great business mind, he was the oldest son who took over the family business after first being passed over for that position, he made a lot of bad decisions before the accident and would have still made them if there was no accident. 

I can't see them keeping Magnum as a long term champion with Flair still around, sure the chase would be amazing business but then what? Magnum would need the belt for 2 or 3 years while being booked in the Bruno/Pedro/Backlund style of champion, how could they do that with Flair still around? 

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7 hours ago, Mister TV said:

JCP buys UWF if there was no accident, Ross and Watts combined carny powers were no match for a mark like Jim Crockett Jr.

Everyone needs to remember that Crockett wasn't some great business mind, he was the oldest son who took over the family business after first being passed over for that position, he made a lot of bad decisions before the accident and would have still made them if there was no accident. 

I can't see them keeping Magnum as a long term champion with Flair still around, sure the chase would be amazing business but then what? Magnum would need the belt for 2 or 3 years while being booked in the Bruno/Pedro/Backlund style of champion, how could they do that with Flair still around? 

Yeah, I don't think Crockett paid much attention to other territories. There's no way he would've bought Central States or Florida if he did. Central States was in absolutely dire shape and there was no need to buy it. Same with Florida. Maybe he felt guilt about monopolizing Flair's bookings for so long, maybe he felt bad for taking Luger when Florida actually looked like they had a hot talent, but neither of those purchases made sense.

The Watts purchase absolutely would have made sense if he had just done the syndication network and the talent, but there was no reason to continue to run the actual territory, and if he had done his due diligence on the purchase he would've seen that. Though really, he probably also would've realized none of the talent was actually locked up because he figured he was getting DiBiase in the deal, and the first thing DiBiase did post-sale was immediately go to the WWF.

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8 hours ago, odessasteps said:

And if Flair isn't champ, maybe he jumps to WWF? Maybe HE becomes the Million Dollar Man instead of Ted?

I doubt it. At best, it's a ten percent chance. It wasn't a lol King Harley Race situation where it's a guy who is in the twilight of his career, and he could just be saddled with something as a goof or a plot device to get random storylines going. Flair was too big for that gimmick by 87/88.

DiBiase was a name and kinda star, but he was a whole lot of vanilla if he wasn't feuding with other big names. Plus, you can give him a made up backstory that makes sense for WWF purposes. I know Flair already had the silver spoon backstory stuff going but Flair transcended that.

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I mean, if you squint, Horseman era Flair is kind of already a MDM type of character. Plus, you can say in storyline that Titan Sports made Flair their biggest free agent signing ever, similar to the Freebirds signing with Watts, and that explains how Flair went from athlete rich (which wasn't super huge in the mid 80s) to Forbes 400 rich. 

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36 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I mean, if you squint, Horseman era Flair is kind of already a MDM type of character. Plus, you can say in storyline that Titan Sports made Flair their biggest free agent signing ever, similar to the Freebirds signing with Watts, and that explains how Flair went from athlete rich (which wasn't super huge in the mid 80s) to Forbes 400 rich. 

I can honestly see that as an aspect of getting the character over, but I see too much of an opportunity to do what they actually did when he came in 1991. I don't give a damn if Flair had the or a belt in his possession. Flair vs. Hogan or Flair vs. Savage in the late 80s is the NWA champion vs. the WWF champion for all intents and purposes. That's a legit, big draw WrestleMania main event if done properly.

The Million Dollar Man thing worked for DiBiase because he could play b-movie villain/final boss at a time in the 80s where that's completely acceptable. Other guys have tried to do that, and in most cases, it sucked cause wrestling has outgrown that. Ironically, a guy who probably should have gotten it? DiBiase's Mid South tag partner, Matt Borne. Look at what he did with Doink despite being involved in two terrible feuds in WWF the time he was there. He gave Doink gravitas that very few guys could give. Third person I would give it to if it wasn't DiBiase is probably Rude. Otherwise, you're getting someone who is either way underqualified or someone who is absolutely overqualified for the role like a Ric Flair.

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You have to remember too that right before Flair came in, Vince wanted to bring in Mike Rotunda as Michael Wallstreet before having a brainfart like he did with Marc Mero and realizing he couldn't use his WCW gimmick for legal reasons.

I'm guessing Money Inc. was originally going to be "The Million Dollar Men" or something along those lines.

Vince had a knack for taking gimmicks on their last legs and saying "LET'S MAKE TWO OF EM!", notably The Natural Disasters, The Mounties/Quebecers  and The SuperModels (Martel and Callis).

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28 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

You have to remember too that right before Flair came in, Vince wanted to bring in Mike Rotunda as Michael Wallstreet before having a brainfart like he did with Marc Mero and realizing he couldn't use his WCW gimmick for legal reasons.

I'm guessing Money Inc. was originally going to be "The Million Dollar Men" or something along those lines.

Vince had a knack for taking gimmicks on their last legs and saying "LET'S MAKE TWO OF EM!", notably The Natural Disasters, The Mounties/Quebecers  and The SuperModels (Martel and Callis).

The funny thing about that is the clear that shit isn't silly cutoff for Johnny B. Badd in WWF is 1994ish going into 1995. The Johnny B. Badd that Vince probably wanted and would be enamored with is 1991-1992 over the top flamboyant Johnny B. Badd. By the time he was no longer green and was starting to make waves, he had toned it down several notches. The only difference between Mero in his last year with WCW and Wildman Marc Mero is a Bad Blaster and a hot wife accompanying him. That's it. 

Prichard anytime Mero and the origin of the failed attempt to make Mero into Johnny B. Badd comes up on STW makes it sound like Vince and he were expecting Mero as Johnny B. Badd to be this amazing, charismatic guy and not this silly shit Dusty came up with. Bruce makes it sound like they got sold a bill of goods especially without the gimmick. That tells me (1) they didn't watch much WCW outside a match or two and (2) their vetting process for talent wasn't that great in 1996 even though they got Austin and Foley (fwiw who both made it a point to outwork Mero since he got a big money deal) around the same time.

Moreover, they knew or at least part of creative knew Johnny B. Badd was terrible because Ross makes fun of the character (he's a bad man!) after Mero clowns Salvatore Sincere by saying he's a jabroni and calling him his real name the same night Sable does the potato sack deal. So it's just Vince and Bruce who probably had that weird infatuation with Johnny B. Badd.

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43 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I can honestly see that as an aspect of getting the character over, but I see too much of an opportunity to do what they actually did when he came in 1991. I don't give a damn if Flair had the or a belt in his possession. Flair vs. Hogan or Flair vs. Savage in the late 80s is the NWA champion vs. the WWF champion for all intents and purposes. That's a legit, big draw WrestleMania main event if done properly.

The Million Dollar Man thing worked for DiBiase because he could play b-movie villain/final boss at a time in the 80s where that's completely acceptable. Other guys have tried to do that, and in most cases, it sucked cause wrestling has outgrown that. Ironically, a guy who probably should have gotten it? DiBiase's Mid South tag partner, Matt Borne. Look at what he did with Doink despite being involved in two terrible feuds in WWF the time he was there. He gave Doink gravitas that very few guys could give. Third person I would give it to if it wasn't DiBiase is probably Rude. Otherwise, you're getting someone who is either way underqualified or someone who is absolutely overqualified for the role like a Ric Flair.

The B-movie villain part is a great example of why DiBiase was perfect for the role, and it's hard for me to visualize anyone else in it. DiBiase's laugh just fit that gimmick so well because it was over the top and it fit the WWF at the time. Flair was great as a guy who was rich, DiBiase was just a better fit for that gimmick considering the tone and tenor of late-1980s/early-1990s WWF.

Like yeah... Flair could get animated and I would buy him as being the Million Dollar Man, but when it came down to laughing at a child's misfortune after kicking a basketball away? My gosh do you need DiBiase's laugh.

(Unless you can overdub James Avery.)

Though I like what you're thinking with Rude. If Rude gets the haircut in 1987... hmm. That's a good thought exercise.

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