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APRIL 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

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8 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

Butch Reed as a Sheamus comp, maybe?

Also struggling to think of a good one.  I thought of Ron Simmons, but he’s better than Ron. Thought of Windham, but he’s not as good as Barry. 

Better than Ron Simmons? That's insane. 

He's definitely more comparable to Butch Reed. A guy like Sheamus would have fit in perfectly in Watts UWF.

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Enzo broke it down.  He was making way more money on merch basically than anything else and he was always featured,  always given promo time,  he and Cass were always involved in something, they never missed RAW (so right there you are getting a TV bonus).   

The Revival would be off TV for weeks,  given nothing to do or to be make to look like fools.  Their bread and butter IS having good matches.  If they aren't allowed to do what they do best then that is going to massively hurt their popularity which in turn is going to hurt what they can make on merchandise.  

There's a reason why "top guys" sell the most merch because they are given the most designs and they are always on TV wearing the merch and they are always involved in something important. 

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3 minutes ago, MapRef41N93W said:

If their only grievance with WWE is that they don't get to be tag team champions often enough or for long enough, then sure, that seems silly. But the story wasn't specific about what their problem is--it only suggested that whatever it is, it persisted even after being made champions.

I would bet that it has less to do with the tag titles specifically and more to do with wanting to be given positions on the show commensurate with their abilities. For a tag team as good as theirs, that probably would involve the tag titles, but they could also have the tag titles and still be unsatisfied. And that does seem to be what happened. But admittedly I am speculating.

Honestly, I could see that as a case, especially since a lot of the Revival's tag title reign does reek of "they were sold a bill of goods": "We'll give you a few weeks of good tag team matches, you'll get the tag titles...but you have to agree to lose to Hawkins and Ryder at Wrestlemania" seemed to be the agreement, but it was doubled with "sure, you won the titles, but you'll lose week after week in cheap matches" 

That's a perfectly fair argument- but at the same time: The Revival got their opportunity, and they didn't manage to get more popular as the champs than they were in cheap comedy matches with Lucha House Party. There is a point in time to keep that in mind: The Revival were weighed, measured, and found wanting. They were good- but they proved they were...just a very good tag team and couldn't get the crowd to care about these awesome matches.

Ultimately, that also ties to things: They want positions on the show commensurate with their abilities, but their abilities are not what they think they are.

8 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

If you are in the title picture,  you make more money.  That's what is lost on some people when debating this topic.  People like Alvarez can talk about "the titles are fake! who cares!" it's a stupid ass argument to make because if you are at the top of the card you are making MORE money...   so while simpletons may think it's all about the titles and "wins"..  maybe it's not,  maybe it's about being in a higher position where you will make more on houses and on merch than you will when you are barely featured or stuck in the midcard. 

Again, that's still a problem as well- because "belt mark" is a thing as well in the topic.

It's not just "the titles are fake! Who cares!" as much as "what's the point of making more money on houses or on merch if it's cancelled out by agreeing to take less money in order to be the champion...moreso when you consider "if the company knows you'll take less money to be champion, then they can give you less of a percentage of merch and less of the house as well?"

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12 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

If you are in the title picture,  you make more money.  That's what is lost on some people when debating this topic.  People like Alvarez can talk about "the titles are fake! who cares!" it's a stupid ass argument to make because if you are at the top of the card you are making MORE money...   so while simpletons may think it's all about the titles and "wins"..  maybe it's not,  maybe it's about being in a higher position where you will make more on houses and on merch than you will when you are barely featured or stuck in the midcard. 

Exactly, if you are champion you are going to be more valuable. People gave Bret Hart shit for taking less money in 93/94, but who made more money long term. Everybody seems to miss the idea Bret was trying to protect his drawing power in Canada at Survivor Series. WCW hired him partly to open Canada up.

There is nothing wrong with being a "mark". "Marks" make the world go around. The happiest time in my life was being a "mark" and believing in magic. 

But wanting to be champion and making money are not seperate things. 

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I'll put it like this.  If you are not protecting your brand then you just aren't being a smart businessman or woman.  Hulk Hogan is a big asshole, right.  But he sure as fuck knew how to protect his brand.  Bret like @Victator stated was well aware of his brand.  If Bret Hart wasn't allowed to be The Hitman anymore,  that's fucked up.  He got over being The Hitman.  He got over by being a great wrestler,  his promo game wasn't as strong until he went heel in '97.  

The Revival's whole deal is being a Tully/Arn tribute act.  Some people think it's corny or whatever but that's how they got their name.  The matches they had down in NXT used to tear the house down.  I also heard that they were having lengthy matches with Roode and Gable on the house show loop and were tearing the houses down so I have to take issue that it wouldn't get over on the main roster.  It sounds like it did.  But on RAW they've had very few opportunities..  

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Posted (edited)

The Revival/American Alpha match on that NXT house show up around my way a few years back was one of the five best tag team matches I've ever seen in my life. It was better than any of their big TV matches.

The way they stay over and elongate their careers is by having twenty minute classics. They're still young dudes, so hanging out in catering and making money while protecting their broken down knees from more of a battering isn't where they're at right now in their careers. Also, 500K a year on a schedule where the travel is crazy and you don't even get used often, thus driving your value down post-contract, sounds like a wish that someone would make on a severed monkey's paw. 

Edited by Smelly McUgly
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5 hours ago, RolandTHTG said:

What did the Jews ever do to you?

 

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52 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

The Revival/American Alpha match on that NXT house show up around my way a few years back was one of the five best tag team matches I've ever seen in my life. It was better than any of their big TV matches.

The way they stay over and elongate their careers is by having twenty minute classics. They're still young dudes, so hanging out in catering and making money while protecting their broken down knees from more of a battering isn't where they're at right now in their careers. Also, 500K a year on a schedule where the travel is crazy and you don't even get used often, thus driving your value down post-contract, sounds like a wish that someone would make on a severed monkey's paw. 

Ultimately, though, that does tie to the big problem The Revival ultimately have.

Having a good twenty minute match and having a good five minute match are two entirely different things, and The Revival just don't know how to make a good five minute match...and on TV, they're not going to get the chance for 30 minute epics all the time. Heck, on PPVs, they won't get the chance for it either, by and large. 

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2 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Ultimately, though, that does tie to the big problem The Revival ultimately have.

Having a good twenty minute match and having a good five minute match are two entirely different things, and The Revival just don't know how to make a good five minute match...and on TV, they're not going to get the chance for 30 minute epics all the time. Heck, on PPVs, they won't get the chance for it either, by and large. 

Well, not in WWE, which explains why they want to leave.

But your claim is wrong because they did a perfectly good job of killing jobber tag teams back in NXT in five-ish minute matches, so the premise of your whole post blew up inside of two sentences, or as I call it, the "Sorceress Knight Special." 😉 

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18 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

 

Astroturf??? You know who came up with Astroturf??? The Jews!

....

....

....the Jews hate grass!

😁

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I agree that The Revival aren't going to get many opportunities to go 15-20 minutes on a RAW or a PPV but to me that isn't a Revival problem that is a creative problem.  Creative should be booking all characters to their strengths.  That is what Paul Heyman always did.   I'm not going to put the blame on the performers,  the booking has failed them.  

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I mean, there is the concept of taking less money now to make more later... but $2.5 million each seems to be more than The Revival have ever actually appeared to be worth so I kinda question the math on that one. The Bucks probably make that money but they have basically made an art out of merch sales and self-promotion.  I assume AEW shifts the math but long view The Briscoes are likely a level above the Revival in terms of (potential) value and after twenty years likely haven't sniffed anywhere near that much money.

 

If they'd rather risk it then god bless them, but if you have a chance at life altering money for both yourselves and your family you should probably think long and hard about it.

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They're better off in the long run leaving. Even if they dont get same money offer in AEW they will be given the chance to develop their own names and control their own careers. Whether they barnstorm outside if AEW and do tours of Japan it will only help build their value if the WWE ever comes calling again. 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I agree that The Revival aren't going to get many opportunities to go 15-20 minutes on a RAW or a PPV but to me that isn't a Revival problem that is a creative problem.  Creative should be booking all characters to their strengths.  That is what Paul Heyman always did.   I'm not going to put the blame on the performers,  the booking has failed them.  

You only have so much TV time- and a midcard act that can get over in 5 mins is more valuable than one that needs 15-20, when you have more wrestlers than TV time.

The Revival would be much more valuable on a thinner roster. 

I don't think the Revival would find much long-term success in AEW.   I can't see them really meshing well with the Bucks, Lucha Bros, or Best Friends.   They'd get an intiial pop, but it would fade over time.   I think they'd do great in NJPW though, but their ceiling would be endless matches with R3K and some other Jr.Tag Team, and even there NJPW has all the gaijin juniors it needs, and I think NJPW is aiming for the non-American English speaking market now.

Also, are they really better than Robbie Eagles/El Phantasma, or Despy/Kanemaru?

 

Edited by alstein
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1 minute ago, alstein said:

You only have so much TV time- and a midcard act that can get over in 5 mins is more valuable than one that needs 15-20, when you have more wrestlers than TV time.

The Revival would be much more valuable on a thinner roster. 

Not only that, but the biggest problem with WWE right now is the fact that,  for some reason, the WWE thinks that the fans think that "long" is equal to "good". There's too many matches for even the main event or upper card-level workers that get two segments of television and 10-15 minutes that, quite frankly, don't deserve to be more than 5 minutes long...let alone a team that's in the higher/middle level of the tag team division.  

 

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Who is getting over in these five minute matches?

Which the Revival did fine in the shorter matches and did a good job making Curt Hawkins a winner matter. Their longer matches on Raw were getting over. Roode and Gable went from a heatless makeshift team to more over. 

Someone once told I think Arn Anderson "It will take you longer to get over, but once you are, you'll be over forever." 

We have seen with Luke Harper that WWE will hold unhappy talent hostage with contracts. Anyone unhappy would be foolish to sign right now. Not everyone obsesses over money. The Revival might live simple lives. 

 

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You can give The Revival a short promo one week that builds towards a 15-minute match the next week.  Nobody said they need to eat up that amount of time every week.  You see, a creative team that knew what they were doing would know how to utilize their roster for a 3-hour program and see to it that each story is progressing week to week. 

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What nobody has mentioned in this exhausting discussion/argument yet is that Vince loves to be fought by his talent, so telling him to fuck off and make money elsewhere is a proper gamble. Otherwise, I'm in the "if you're unhappy, money ain't gonna fix it" boat. 

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If no one's getting over in five-minute matches, Who's getting over in these 15-20 minute matches they have on TV every week? After all , they must be sooooooooooo good because they're LONG! Long like all the matches in New Japan or the indies, so that must mean they're as good as those matches! Who cares if they have no storyline or really are the same match every week just wasting time for the sake of wasting it, they're LONG, so that must mean every match instantly makes you a main eventer!

Seriously. there's a point in time that it's better to have two 7 minute matches and get four teams over than one 15 minute match for no reason that gets two teams over.

 

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1 hour ago, Victator said:

Who is getting over in these five minute matches?

Which the Revival did fine in the shorter matches and did a good job making Curt Hawkins a winner matter. Their longer matches on Raw were getting over. Roode and Gable went from a heatless makeshift team to more over. 

Someone once told I think Arn Anderson "It will take you longer to get over, but once you are, you'll be over forever." 

We have seen with Luke Harper that WWE will hold unhappy talent hostage with contracts. Anyone unhappy would be foolish to sign right now. Not everyone obsesses over money. The Revival might live simple lives. 

 

 

The guys who get over in 5 minute matches are folks who have really hurt looking stuff- Goldberg-types, Ryback.   Some guys do well in longer matches- like Roode/Gable.

 

The Revival could make a living on the Southern indie scene as top guys there $500-$1000/show and light travel

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And Raw is like ten hours, guys who can do good long matches should be an asset. 

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2 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Who's getting over in these 15-20 minute matches they have on TV every week?

The Revival, Roode/Gable and Hawkins/Ryder. 

Yes I watched it on youtube. Wanted to help WWE out with a percentage of a penny. 

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You know who would be better in a five to seven minute match than a 15-20 minuter? Baron Corbin.

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8 minutes ago, AxB said:

You know who would be better in a five to seven minute match than a 15-20 minuter? Baron Corbin.

Not related, but he has the worst wrestling gear. I thought the Singhs waiter outfits looked bad, but Corbin as the Applebee's manager is so much worse. With his head shaved, he looks like some lanky guy they pulled out of the crowd. 

Jim Cornette once compared Arn Arnderson to Sid like this. Every time you watch Sid, you want to see him less. Arn is a guy that every time you watch him, you want to watch him more. 

Corbin is a guy you watch and never want to watch wrestling again. I wish I could even guess why they keep featuring him on TV. 

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2 hours ago, Victator said:

Corbin is a guy you watch and never want to watch wrestling again. I wish I could even guess why they keep featuring him on TV. 

Delirious knows (answer at 0:26):

 

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