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APRIL 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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so i'm starting to think the Andre the Giant Memorial Battle Royal is actually a curse. Not counting what happened/happens tonight, there's been surprisingly few wins the year after an ARMBaR victory. i did some research and this is what i came up with (some spoilers for tonight's show):

Spoiler

WM29- (Cesaro Not on Card)
SS'13  - (Cesaro Not on Card)
WM30- Cesaro wins ARMBaR
            - (Big Show is runner-up)
SS'14  - Cesar loses to RVD (pre-show)
            - (Big Show not booked)
WM31- Cesaro/Kidd retain tag team titles. Cesaro loses in ARMBaR
            - Big Show wins ARMBaR
            - (Baron Corbin not on card)
SS'15  - Cesaro loses to Kevin Owens
            - Big Show loses to Ryback and Miz
WM32- Cesaro not on card
            - Big Show loses ARMBaR
            - Baron Corbin wins ARMBaR
            - (Mojo Rawley not on card)
SS'16  - Cesaro loses to Sheamus (preshow)
            - Big Show not booked
            - Corbin not booked
            - (Mojo's team wins 12-man tag match)
WM33- Cesaro/Sheamus lose in tag title 4-way ladder match
            - Big Show loses ARMBaR
            - Corbin loses IC title match
            - Mojo wins ARMBaR
            - (Hardy Boys win Tag Titles in 4-Way Ladder Match)
SS'17  - Cesaro/Sheamus lose to Ambrose/Rollins
            - Big Show loses to Big Cass
            - John Cena def Baron Corbin
            - Mojo - not booked
            - (Hardyz/Jason Jordan beat Miz/Miztourage)
WM34- Cesaro/Sheamus lose tag team titles
            - Big Show not on card
            - Corbin is runner-up in ARMBaR
            - Mojo loses in ARMBaR
            - Matt Hardy Wins ARMBaR
            - (Braun [& Nicholas] win tag titles)
SS'18  - Cesaro not booked
            - Big Show not booked
            - Corbin loses to Finn Balor
            - Mojo not booked
            - Matt Hardy not booked
            - (Braun def Kevin Owens for MITB shot)
WM35 - Cesaro/Sheamus lose in 4-way tag team title match
            - Big Show not on card
            - Corbin beats Kurt Angle
            - Mojo not on card (unless i missed him in the ARMBaR)
            - Matt Hardy loses ARMBaR
            - Braun Strowman wins ARMBaR

seriously, only TWICE has a winner won a WM match at any point after their battle royal victory?!?

Edited by twiztor
adding WM35 & SummerSlam results
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My argument on the ARMBAR would be, by comparison:

Midcard storylines are forgotten about quickly. After 3 months, they mean nothing.

Therefore, submitted for approval: If the ARMBAR winner had a meaningful role at Money in the Bank of the same year, then they were a "good" ARMBAR winner.

If you look at it this way, you have: 

Wrestlemania 30: Cesaro wins ARMBAR -> Money in the Bank 2014: Cesaro is in the ladder match for the WWE World Heavyweight Championship, MAIN EVENTS MITB 2014.

Mania 31: Big Show wins ARMBAR -> Money in the Bank 2015: Big Show fights Ryback for the IC title, wins by DQ. 

Mania 32: Baron Corbin wins ARMBAR -> MITB 2016: Baron Corbin defeats Dolph Ziggler. 

Mania 33: Mojo Rawley wins ARMBAR -> MITB 2017: Hype Bros beat the Colons on the pre-show. 

Mania 34:  Matt Hardy wins ARMBAR, Naomi wins SNICKERS BAR -> MITB 2018: Matt Hardy not on the card, but Naomi is in the Women's MITB match.

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4 hours ago, Hagan said:

Hey, no disrespect to the Funker. All-time legend  and he definitely deserves a lot of credit in ECW but wouldn’t Dreamer pinning Raven at that moment with Funk in his corner been a better ending after the long build? I know Dreamer never wanted to beat Raven but that would have been the perfect payoff for the build. 

I don’t think it would have made any difference long-term but Funk being put over at the end was a much less interesting story than Stevie or Dreamer would have been.

Your seeing it with 2019 eyes is all.

 

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1 minute ago, Zartan said:

Your seeing it with 2019 eyes is all.

 

That’s fair but in my defense back in ‘97 I wanted the Dreamer vs Raven singles blowoff at Barely Legal as well. 

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10 hours ago, Hagan said:

Was thinking today how the Funker going over at Barely Legal was a really dumb booking call.

The first PPV for this edgy, hip company ends with the nostalgia win for the guy you’re pushing as old and passed his prime. Even worse, this show could have either had the Raven vs Dreamer blow off of probably the most important feud in the company, Stevie beating his mentor to blow off that story or have the most iconic character and biggest babyface in the company in The Sandman giving you the big babyface win.

Twenty years out, still dumb.

 

They already had a match on the ppv to blow off the most important feud in the company. 

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5 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

They already had a match on the ppv to blow off the most important feud in the company. 

True but that’s not much of an endorsement of Heyman’s booking of the World title then. When I have the time at work I’ll talk more about how I think the booking of the World title from ‘97 to the end of the company is basically garbage.

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7 hours ago, Zartan said:

Your seeing it with 2019 eyes is all.

Hindsight. It's 20/20!

I don't think "no ECW fan would question the booking" is a valid defense, as ECW fans have been putting over everything the company ever did as flawless for 20 years now.

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So countless Wrestlers played American Football in College. Some, like Moose and Brian Pillman the first made it to the NFL. Ron Simmons and Lex Luger were teammates in the USFL. But nobody from the XFL ever tried to make it in Wrestling, did they? Why not? Did they all think Vince was a twatface or something?

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13 minutes ago, AxB said:

So countless Wrestlers played American Football in College. Some, like Moose and Brian Pillman the first made it to the NFL. Ron Simmons and Lex Luger were teammates in the USFL. But nobody from the XFL ever tried to make it in Wrestling, did they? Why not? Did they all think Vince was a twatface or something?

They were probably all young and still trying to make the NFL.  

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Longer thoughts on the ECW title booking.

I understand that contracts, and money issues derailed a lot of stuff but just looking at what was onscreen the booking of the ECW title was really bad post Barely Legal. 

- Raven has his great run with the Dreamer and Sandman feuds and loses the title to a shoehorned in Terry Funk (which I talked about in other posts). 

- Funk drops the title to Sabu in the barbed wire match who then drops it eight days later to The Franchise at Hardcore Heaven. I assume that the end game from Barely Legal on was to get the belt on Douglas but how we got there is kind of annoying. A few issues, though - why not just go ahead and put the belt on Taz. He was hot; he had tapped out Sabu and he was being positioned as the new top star in the company. Douglas was  great a heel champion but this is where we get into the ECW trope of insanely long chases, heel reigns and delayed gratification. Why not have Douglas pin Funk if you just have to put the belt on Terry? 

- Douglas drops the title to Bammer in the somewhat convoluted Rude storyline and wins it back in one of my favorite ECW matches at November to Remember '97. So from Barely Legal on - you have three transitional champions in Funk, Sabu and Bigelow. 

- Douglas begins his death slog of a reign that was derailed by injuries. Maybe Snow beats him if the WWF doesn't call Snow back up but instead we get the long, long, long build to Taz and Douglas that finally ends at Guilty as Charges in Kissimmee as opposed to a Philly or New York show. It's a feud that misses its peak and Douglas basically has a broken arm in the match, if I recall. 

- So, Taz finally gets his  reign and now the build to the big RVD coronation begins. Van Dam has basically replaced Taz as the top star and most pushed act in the company. 

- Taz leaves and they hotshot Mike Awesome in there, which, okay, is great. Love me some Awesome. Now we build up to his match with RVD. They do the quickie switch with Tanaka, which is fine.

 - Van Dam breaks his leg and the match with Awesome gets derailed. Injuries happen but the issue is these insanely long builds and titles staying on heels forever. 

- Awesome leaves and they put the belt on Taz who drops it to Dreamer who drops it minutes later to Justin Credible, so we're immediately back to a long heel reign. I know Tommy never wanted to be champion but at this point you build to a big show and have him win the belt. Sandman is also back at this point and I know there was heat on how he left but he's still a huge star. Do something with him. 

- Anyway, we have a heel champ and he drops it to Jerry Lynn, which at this point the company was basically on fumes and I think RVD had bounced or was in the process of bouncing. Jerry drops it Corino because God forbid any babyface in this company has an extended run. Corino loses it to Sandman who then minutes later drops it to Rhyno and the company folds months later. 

So many heels; so many babyfaces getting the rug pulled out from under them; so many babyfaces who never even got the blowoff or the blowoff at the right time. 

I know this is looking back with hindsight but I'd argue that post-Raven, who was a compelling heel with good babyface foils, you have a lot of cheap heat coward heels, hotshotted or transitional babyface champions and the top babyface stars being held back on winning the belt until the "right moment," which usually never came. 

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11 hours ago, Hagan said:

That’s fair but in my defense back in ‘97 I wanted the Dreamer vs Raven singles blowoff at Barely Legal as well. 

They already had your money. Do I really need to explain on THIS board how Terry Fucking Funk had and probably still has more name value to the non die hard fans then Stevie, Raven and Dreamer combined? 

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Just now, Zartan said:

They already had your money. Do I really need to explain on THIS board how Terry Fucking Funk had and probably still has more name value to the non die hard fans then Stevie, Raven and Dreamer combined? 

Not disputing that but that wasn't my point. I'm not sure a whole lot of 1989 NWA fans were buying Barely Legal anyway.  Funk's title win was a cool pop but, as I maintain, it was the least interesting story of Dreamer, Stevie and Raven and I don't like the optics of the young, edgy company ending their first PPV with the old man nostalgia win.

 

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2 hours ago, AxB said:

So countless Wrestlers played American Football in College. Some, like Moose and Brian Pillman the first made it to the NFL. Ron Simmons and Lex Luger were teammates in the USFL. But nobody from the XFL ever tried to make it in Wrestling, did they? Why not? Did they all think Vince was a twatface or something?

Plus, the XFL only lasted one year, so there aren't a ton of XFL alumni.

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I think it was here the MYC3 was mentioned as a possibility. This seems to confirm its coming along with one of the first people asked to join.

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3 hours ago, AxB said:

So countless Wrestlers played American Football in College. Some, like Moose and Brian Pillman the first made it to the NFL. Ron Simmons and Lex Luger were teammates in the USFL. But nobody from the XFL ever tried to make it in Wrestling, did they? Why not? Did they all think Vince was a twatface or something?

Ricky Ortiz was an XFL alumni. 

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Ten minutes left in class and I want to thank this board for helping me get through a day of teaching by talking about Terry Funk, Bret Hart and Becky Lynch. Can't think of three better people I'd rather spend a day discussing. 

 

Edit: oh, one last comment on the day, but with Charlotte and Andrade coming out as official at the Hall of Fame I'm kinda cracking up at Andrade having to make small talk with Conrad Thompson at Thanksgiving. 

Edited by Hagan
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3 hours ago, Eivion said:

I think it was here the MYC3 was mentioned as a possibility. This seems to confirm its coming along with one of the first people asked to join.

Red implied they're doing a Cruiserweight Classic II as well. No wonder the Dusty was done in March.

 

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So far the only thing I see match wise for RAW tonight is Alexa Bliss challenging Sasha and Bayley

Seems like the time for a heel call up to be her partner but who knows

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1 minute ago, RIPPA said:

So far the only thing I see match wise for RAW tonight is Alexa Bliss challenging Sasha and Bayley

Seems like the time for a heel call up to be her partner but who knows

Maybe Lacey Evans does something besides walk out and waste a minute of our time. Or maybe she goes back into manager role with a new team?

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