Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board
West Newbury Bad Boy

WrestleMania XXXV - April 7, 2019

Recommended Posts

Ember is a mixed bag. No doubt she's a talented wrestler. She's got the best moveset among main roster women and possibly the entire company. She's got a good look that could be used to connect more with the crowd, with gaming and cosplay being huge markets. She's not much of a promo, but a lot of people in WWE aren't. 

I think one of NXT's shortcomings is they don't give enough attention to someone like Ember, who's got everything else going for her but needs help with character. Or, they allow someone to develop a character that has little chance of getting over on the main roster. Of course the wrestler has to carry some of that burden. But a key point of NXT is to nurture the talent in all facets. That doesn't seem to be happening as much as it should, and it's a disservice, especially to someone like Ember.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Eivion said:

The thing is she is exactly the same as she was in NXT.

She got over on her ringwork in NXT. She went from high quality Takeover matches to throwaway tv matches. Unfortunately, ringwork work alone usually doesn't work on the main roster unless you're a Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, and AJ Styles and have a long résumé of high quality work.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Ember is a mixed bag. No doubt she's a talented wrestler. She's got the best moveset among main roster women and possibly the entire company. She's got a good look that could be used to connect more with the crowd, with gaming and cosplay being huge markets. She's not much of a promo, but a lot of people in WWE aren't. 

I think one of NXT's shortcomings is they don't give enough attention to someone like Ember, who's got everything else going for her but needs help with character. 

Jeff Hardy didn't have much of a character.  He looked cool, he looked like a lot of kids out there who therefore became fans and he did crazy shit.  Ember Moon has everything going for her that Jeff did outside of the push and the company willing to let her take risks and show what she can do. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

y'know the one time I was impressed with Ember is when she was a talking head on the pre-show of a show that's name is failing me right now but she came across showing way more personality than whatever her wrestling character is supposed to be. I know opportunity is the hook those gravitate to defend those who haven't had a fair shake, but something clearly hasn't connected.

That being said Ember's series with Asuka was awesome and she should have really been the one to take Asuka's streak.

Edited by Rick
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Eivion said:

I recall Lacey looking perfectly fine in NXT, nothing special, but far better than say Carmella or Alexa when they were brought up.

Ember Moon has been mostly DOA on the main roster and that isn't just because of a lack of a strong push. She lacks anything resembling a character for the audience to grab onto. Aside from Evolution she gets nearly zero reaction.

That's the real problem with Ember, and a lot of the wrestlers in WWE these days. What exactly is her character? She has a moon in her entrance and wears contacts. Why? What is she supposed to be? There's too many instances of men and women being thrown out there and we are supposed to hate them or cheer them because REASONS PAL, but I'll be damned if I could tell you what those reasons are. Shit, Lacey has the generic stuck up entitled asshole who thinks she's better then everyone aspect of her character, but at least it's something!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

She got over on her ringwork in NXT. She went from high quality Takeover matches to throwaway tv matches. Unfortunately, ringwork work alone usually doesn't work on the main roster unless you're a Samoa Joe, Bryan Danielson, and AJ Styles and have a long résumé of high quality work.

I feel like you are selling Bryan, Joe, & AJ short by a good margin. All of those guys had way more personality than Ember when they started the main roster. Joe in particular is a guy that is over far more for personality and how he presents himself than his actual ring work which hasn't really been super impressive in WWE.

52 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Jeff Hardy didn't have much of a character.  He looked cool, he looked like a lot of kids out there who therefore became fans and he did crazy shit.  Ember Moon has everything going for her that Jeff did outside of the push and the company willing to let her take risks and show what she can do. 

Jeff was in tag team that hid his shortcomings, started in a period when it was easier to get over, and has always had a weird charisma to him. Beyond that you seem to be advising WWE let Ember try to kill herself to get over which is pretty questionable as an idea to say the least.  Being impressive in the ring and killing themselves hasn't really done wonders for the 205Live crew. Why would it be any different for Ember?

Edited by Eivion
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Jeff was in tag team that hid his shortcomings, started in a period when it was easier to get over, and has always had a weird charisma to him. Beyond that you seem to be advising WWE let Ember try to kill herself to get over which is pretty questionable as an idea to say the least.  Being impressive in the ring and killing themselves hasn't really done wonders for the 205Live crew. Why would it be any different for Ember?

Where did I say she should be allowed to "kill herself"?  She should be allowed to do her shit. She is a high flyer,  extremely athletic,  the only real high risk moves she is allowed to perform is her finisher which always draws a "wow!" from the audience. I didn't say she should go fall off ladders. She performs risky moves but she does that effortlessly.  You got Charlotte out here doing moonsaults to the outside every other match and what not,  Ember Moon can do a lot of cool shit and she proved in NXT that crowds will get behind her and she got great reactions down there doing lengthier matches. 

Again,  it is about opportunity. RAW is three hours. PPVs are 4 hours.  This goes way beyond Ember Moon by the way.  A lot of people on here were saying WWE should just have Revival go out there and work 30 minute matches because they get a great reaction at house shows and it would get them over on RAW.  Well,  I don't necessarily disagree with that but I feel a lot of people on the roster could use some opportunities to showcase their talent. 

If the women got an opportunity and then they still weren't over then I'd say okay something is wrong here but for right now I am not blaming them.  There are three women who will be able to showcase their talent at WrestleMania this year.  Three. The women's tag title match is four teams and it's likely not to get a lot of time.  The battle royal is everyone else.  You mean to tell me they couldn't find something for any of these women to do?  On a 7 hour show?  Ridiculous. 

Also,  something someone said about Lacey Evans having a defined character.  I'm not so sure about that. Stuck up generic entitled chick is also Alexa Bliss' character it's just that Lacey Evans is a time traveler. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Where did I say she should be allowed to "kill herself"?  She should be allowed to do her shit. She is a high flyer,  extremely athletic,  the only real high risk moves she is allowed to perform is her finisher which always draws a "wow!" from the audience. I didn't say she should go fall off ladders. She performs risky moves but she does that effortlessly.  You got Charlotte out here doing moonsaults to the outside every other match and what not,  Ember Moon can do a lot of cool shit and she proved in NXT that crowds will get behind her and she got great reactions down there doing lengthier matches. 

You were talking about Jeff doing crazy shit. Hard to not to interrupt that as the type of shit that nearly killed him opposed to just high flying which again the 205Live guys do and don't really get over with. For the most part she does the same moves. I'm actually trying to recall if there is anything she doesn't do that she did in NXT outside of the Asuka matches. The NXT audience and main roster audience are not completely the same. Like I said before she had the same personality and character she had in NXT and hasn't been nearly as over.

18 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Again,  it is about opportunity. RAW is three hours. PPVs are 4 hours.  This goes way beyond Ember Moon by the way.  A lot of people on here were saying WWE should just have Revival go out there and work 30 minute matches because they get a great reaction at house shows and it would get them over on RAW.  Well,  I don't necessarily disagree with that but I feel a lot of people on the roster could use some opportunities to showcase their talent. 

If the women got an opportunity and then they still weren't over then I'd say okay something is wrong here but for right now I am not blaming them.  There are three women who will be able to showcase their talent at WrestleMania this year.  Three. The women's tag title match is four teams and it's likely not to get a lot of time.  The battle royal is everyone else.  You mean to tell me they couldn't find something for any of these women to do?  On a 7 hour show?  Ridiculous

I don't actually disagree with most of this. I just feel that Ember wasn't the best example, especially since she is injured right now. Also the Revival don't need 20-30 minute weekly matches to get over. They just need to not be made to look like chumps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Eivion said:

You were talking about Jeff doing crazy shit. Hard to not to interrupt that as the type of shit that nearly killed him opposed to just high flying which again the 205Live guys do and don't really get over with.

I disagree with this part..  Well, Jeff got lucky or maybe he really knew what he was doing. He didn't get many major injuries but no I don't expect anyone to fall off ladders.  I think Ember Moon should just be able to go out there and be given a few showcases with decent women on the roster and perform her moveset..  

The part I disagree with on 205 Live is I don't believe they were setup to succeed and also Mustafa Ali got himself over having a crazy moveset and bumping like a maniac. I would throw some credit towards his promos too but on the main roster he's barely had any promo time so it's literally all on his in-ring work.  

Ricochet is actually a bad promo and he's getting over with his flying.  I don't believe there is a woman on the roster outside of Io and Kairi who can do a lot of what Ember does. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You think she's as athletic as Ember Moon?  Even if she is,  Ember hits everything flawlessly. You can be athletic but poor in execution.  Ember and Io hit everything spot on. Charlotte has had some pretty bad botches which is fine, I don't think she's as crisp as those two. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just watched one of those ''10 best moves of Ember Moon''' highlight reels and nothing Ember does is that spectacular outside of her finisher. I've seen Candice Lerae pull off some effortless shit like Lionsaults and she gets no recognition at all around these parts. 

Yeah Charlotte has a tendency to overshoot her moonsault variations mostly to protect herself, she's certainty not as bad as Sasha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Candice is going to be talked about a lot considering her role on NXT has been Mrs. Johnny Wrestling for the past year.  She has been a manager. As for the other comment I don't think this thread needs to go down that road. There are people who like one over the other and vice versa,  they both have valid arguments etc etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

The part I disagree with on 205 Live is I don't believe they were setup to succeed and also Mustafa Ali got himself over having a crazy moveset and bumping like a maniac. I would throw some credit towards his promos too but on the main roster he's barely had any promo time so it's literally all on his in-ring work.  

Ricochet is actually a bad promo and he's getting over with his flying. 

I don't recall Ali getting great reactions on 205Live. Gallagher and Tozawa have both gotten bigger reactions in the past. I think the best Ali did was probably the Fastlane triple threat.

Ricochet has the charisma to make up for the lack of personality, but he also does things many just don't seem to do. He is also presented as important and carries himself as such as well.

35 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I don't believe there is a woman on the roster outside of Io and Kairi who can do a lot of what Ember does. 

28 minutes ago, Rick said:

You're criminally underrating Charlotte's athleticism there. 

Honestly, both of you are kind of off here. There are different types of athleticism, layers, training, and just how different body types can affect what you can do and how you do it. Charlotte is a bit of an athletic freak, but she definitely can't do all the same shit Ember can. It goes vice versa though with Charlotte doing stuff Ember likely couldn't as well. On the other hand Niners is selling some of the women short/too hard. Naomi almost certainly can the same shit Ember does and possibly more. Kacy and Lacey in NXT can do more for certain. Kairi can't do half that shit as she isn't trained for it. She is athletic, but not much of a high flyer although she did have one crazy moment where she accidentally dived outside the ring and landed on her feet much to audience's and her own surprise. The one high flying move (springboard forearm) she did outside of the elbow drop she noticeably stopped doing not long after that moment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know Naomi can do it but there's the part where Ember does things with very little effort and hits her spots with 99% accuracy.  Anyway,  I'm not disagreeing with most of that you said something that is key.  

You said "Ricochet is presented as important".  When we started talking about all this my main point was allow these talents whether it is Ember or Revival or whoever your bag is a little opportunity,  give them a showcase and see how it goes.  There is nothing to be lost here.  There is no reason why these talents should be called up and then have nothing to do,  no story lines or very little in-ring time. Should everyone be treated as important?  Not exactly..  but some performers like the ones we are discussing were over in NXT,  they showed what they can do there and built a rep and then Vince and/or creative killed their reputation dead within weeks of their call up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kind of agree. The thing is the issue Ember has was shit most saw in NXT and thought should have been fixed there. The Revival got screwed over by injuries their first year, and there just doesn't seem to be a strong trust of them now because of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlotte's moonsalt is now her version of her dad going up to the top rope. Much like him being slammed off the top, she'll always overshoot or completely miss her moonsalt's. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Charlotte's moonsault is Shawn's. He always overshot it or was off target.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They killed Ember (and the rest of the NXT women) dead way before she was called up - by not putting her over Asuka. This could have been remedied if they'd have had her do *literally anything* since she got called up. I legitimately can't remember a single angle she's been involved in. She doesn't need to have a character, whatever everyone means by that, to get over.* She just needs a sustained push. Announcers selling the Eclipse as a death move and giving her a title at some point would have worked wonders.

 

* There are dozens of guys with the gimmick of 'good wrestler' on the main roster - and they get a shitload of praise here. I really want to believe this isn't about gender, but can someone please tell me specifically how Cesaro's character is more fleshed out than Ember's? Balor? Owens? Zayn? Andrade? Buddy? The Revival?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ember has no in ring charisma. Comparing her to Bryan, AJ etc is laughable. She's the women's Apollo Crews. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Eivion said:

I feel like you are selling Bryan, Joe, & AJ short by a good margin. All of those guys had way more personality than Ember when they started the main roster.

AJ Styles doesn't have "way more personality" than a wet dishrag. You're right about Bryan and Joe, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I disagree with this part..  Well, Jeff got lucky or maybe he really knew what he was doing. He didn't get many major injuries but no I don't expect anyone to fall off ladders.  I think Ember Moon should just be able to go out there and be given a few showcases with decent women on the roster and perform her moveset..  

The part I disagree with on 205 Live is I don't believe they were setup to succeed and also Mustafa Ali got himself over having a crazy moveset and bumping like a maniac. I would throw some credit towards his promos too but on the main roster he's barely had any promo time so it's literally all on his in-ring work.  

Ricochet is actually a bad promo and he's getting over with his flying.  I don't believe there is a woman on the roster outside of Io and Kairi who can do a lot of what Ember does. 

Have to disagree with much of this, I'm the biggest Mustafa Ali fan in the room and his genius was doing a lot of really safe stuff and making it look dangerous. Sure, once in a while (like against Buddy Murphy) he'd take a crazy bump, but for the most part he has always been about the illusion of risk rather than being an idiot like Jeff Hardy.

Ricochet isn't a bad promo, he just isn't a good WWE script reader. Left to his own devices, he gets his points across just fine. What he doesn't have is a silly catchphrase or similar nonsense for the knuckle-draggers to chant along with.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ember Moon is one or two tweaks from being really good and cacapble of a high level run but they’re big tweaks and I haven’t seen any progress in her since she first showed up in NXT. Here’s hoping she returns with everything in place and gets a chance to prove she can go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, OSJ said:

Have to disagree with much of this, I'm the biggest Mustafa Ali fan in the room and his genius was doing a lot of really safe stuff and making it look dangerous. Sure, once in a while (like against Buddy Murphy) he'd take a crazy bump, but for the most part he has always been about the illusion of risk rather than being an idiot like Jeff Hardy.

Ricochet isn't a bad promo, he just isn't a good WWE script reader. Left to his own devices, he gets his points across just fine. What he doesn't have is a silly catchphrase or similar nonsense for the knuckle-draggers to chant along with.

No I disagree,  they are risks for most people.  He just happens to be really great at taking risks and making them look effortless.  Same point I was making with Ember. 

And again,  people can call Jeff an idiot for bumping like that but keep in mind,  he almost never sustained an injury. So either he was lucky or he knows what he is doing. 

I've never seen Ricochet look like anything more than a deer in headlights behind a microphone. Maybe he'll get better. He doesn't really need to...  again that was another point I was making.  Not everyone has to be a great promo. 

Edited by Niners Fan in CT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Jeff is a stunt performer, the only time he's suffered a bad injury was when he broke his leg doing bike jumps in his yard, lol.

Jeff's the same age as AJ Styles but wrestles like he's 10 years older than him. He's definitely tweaked his style so big bumps have been fewer and less destructive on his body as he's gotten older.

Edited by Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...