MARCH 2019 WRESTLING TALK.

[Craig H]

3 hours ago, Hagan said:

What is always weird about the WCW revisionism of Starrcade ‘97 is that if you really want to defend Hulk’s bullshit with changing the finish just call out Sting for being deep into the drugs and booze and shit during the period. Wasn’t he going through maritial shit at the time, too?

I feel that’s what a lot of the ‘looked unmotivated and out of shape’ stuff is hinting at anyway.

edit: Sting’s born again story

Not remotely defending Hulk’s stunt with the finish but there’s a much better argument in saying ‘Sting was dealing with a major pill and alcohol addiction and we didn’t think we could trust him to run with the belt.’

But see, even that doesn't fly because they put the belt on Sting and had him go over Hogan like they should have the first time weeks later. When that point was brought up to Eric he again had no answer. 

[SorceressKnight]

2 hours ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

Honestly, was coming to post something along these lines. I think a lot of people excuse how annoying he is because "he's one of us" but I can't stand him. I think that Ian from ROH is a much better version of Mauro. 

Mauro and Matt Striker seem to be kindred spirits:

In any match that they have, they're going to give you at least one amazing insight that adds something to the whole match, and at least three lines that make you cringe the second you hear them.

The only question on them both is: How many of those amazing insights does it take to cancel out all the incredibly cringeworthy shit they'll pull out?

[Lawful Metal]

My son has never seen a Misawa v. Kawada match. He is intrigued by how you can have a successful feud with one guy never beating his rival. What are the most important matches to show him?

[Lawful Metal]

Also, random ECW question:

there was a Steve Corino match where he got bloody and his opponent wrote the word DIE on his chest in blood. Who was the opponent?

[RIPPA]

12 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

My son has never seen a Misawa v. Kawada match. He is intrigued by how you can have a successful feud with one guy never beating his rival. What are the most important matches to show him?

 

[tbarrie]

10 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

She was having decent matches with Kaitlyn and Naomi but you lost me on the "viewed as an all-time great" part 

Yeah, I'm a big AJ Lee fan, but I wouldn't call her an all-time great. Mind you, she didn't have much opportunity to demonstrate greatness given the opponents she had to work with, but at best I'd say she was a great might-have-been.

[paul sosnowski]

26 minutes ago, Lawful Metal said:

Also, random ECW question:

there was a Steve Corino match where he got bloody and his opponent wrote the word DIE on his chest in blood. Who was the opponent?

It's Jerry Lynn at Heatwave, July 16, 2000 (available on The Network)

[RIPPA]

 

[DJ Hero Morganti]

I love the Scotty too hotty shout.  And the realism to know that while he wants to have those great matches, he can have a great career in the spot he has.

[Hagan]

I'll also throw in a random ECW question: is Joel Gertner's JFK Jr monologue online anywhere? I have searched for it and sometimes seems like there's a Mandela Effect deal.

Also - anyone know the episode off-hand where Corino accused Dusty of cutting Magnum's brakes? 

Edited March 6, 2019 by Hagan

[ChesterCopperpot]

Mania 36 announcement

 

[Hagan]

hm - from my rudimentary knowledge of Tampa, it doesn't seem ideal for the shoulder events. Sounds like a LOT of commuting from place to place and probably some events in separate towns. 

edit: I'm biased but if they made New Orleans the permanent home of 'Mania would people be that chuffed?

Edited March 6, 2019 by Hagan
added.

[ChesterCopperpot]

6 minutes ago, Hagan said:

I'll also throw in a random ECW question: is Joel Gertner's JFK Jr monologue online anywhere? I have searched for it and sometimes seems like there's a Mandela Effect deal.

Conversely - anyone know the episode off-hand where Corino accused Dusty of cutting Magnum's brakes? 

Found this

 

Quote

"Dimwit. A quintessential commentary by Joel Gertner, and yes, this one
is so good that I've transcribed it for ecwwrestling.com. This past
weekend was a momentous weekend indeed both in the world of sports and
in the world in general. First and foremost, I lost my mask which means
that my all-knowing, bright-glowing face will now be able to be seen on
television nationwide. Also, the Dudley Boys dropped the ECW World Tag
Team titles; however, with my guidance and supervision, a seventh title
reign is not far behind.

"Also in the world of sports, David Cone pitched a perfect game.
However, none of the things that I've just mentioned got any attention,
and the reason is that they were all obscured by the death of John F.
Kennedy Jr. And you know, we always hear about a ratings war in
professional wrestling, but really, there must be a big battle going on
in the world of network news, because for a story about an unfortunate
death, this, unfortunately, is the story that just won't die.

"First they tell you all about the cockpit, and, oh yes, it was a
"cock"-pit indeed. And they tell you about the size and how small it
is. I personally am not here to attest to the size of John-John's
cockpit or John-John's john-john, but perhaps you could ask the
Bessette sisters about that. After all, altitude wasn't the only thing
going down on that flight. And you know, uh, a Piper Saratoga really
isn't all that small when the two passengers are both sitting in the
pilot's lap. Pilot? What pilot, you ask? And I agree.

"Of the three people on the flight, the total flight experience that
they had was 200 hours. That's eight days. I mean, nobody can learn
anything in 200 hours. Just ask Joey Styles, he's done over 200 hours
of ECW TV, he still can't do his job. You people at home can spend 400
hours dancing in front of your mirror, wearing nothing but lingerie. It
doesn't make you Madonna, and it never will. So why raise the bar on
expectations for JFK Jr.? Oh yeah, and speaking of bar, why would you
fly with ANYBODY who needed an answer key, a crooked professor and 37
tries just to pass the New York City bar exam? I'll bet Ted Kennedy
wouldn't have needed that many tries. After all, Ted Kennedy has passed
by every bar in the New York City area.

"Personally, call me a genius, and you'd be right, but regardless of
who the pilot is, I'm not flying in an airplane that looks as if it
could be powered by 2 AAA batteries and a gallon of skim milk. Oh, and
back to Ted Kennedy. You know, in the last 30 years in the United
States we've managed to turn 8-tracks into cassettes, cassettes into
CDs and CDs into DVDs, but yet, our female population still hasn't
figured out that the best way to get from here to there is not to have
your trip be handled by the Kennedy travel and tourism board.

"And why all this attention for John-John anyway? Because when he was 3
years old back in 1963, which is before anybody watching this was born,
he was brave enough to salute the man who, yes, sent our nation into
Vietnam, and yes, deprived us all of the beauteous virtues of Marilyn
Monroe. In fact, John Kennedy's true calling would have been to be the
innovator of making it cool to get some oral service in the Oval
Office.

"Now, yes, I would be afraid to upset or offend or insult any of the
remaining family members or relatives of the Kennedys that I've
mentioned, but none of them are left. And if John F. Kennedy Jr.
himself were found right now, he would probably have his pants around
his ankles and be covered by both Bessette sisters, the corpse of
Marilyn Monroe and the chick from the Chappaquidick river just because
she was curious who the better Kennedy was.

"And if John F. Kennedy were found alive today, he would echo all of
these sentiments and praise my wisdom, and he would say (makes burbling
noise by running his finger over his lips), which translates to, 'You
know, I wish I never dumped Darryl Hannah because in that movie
"Splash" she had mermaid fins, and I would have been able to hang on to
them and swim to the top.'

"Here's the point: In JFK's honour, don't search that same three-mile
piece of land for the next three years, and don't give the third degree
to every shark swimming those waters, asking them what the flavor or
hair color of their last Friday's late supper snack was. America, don't
stop on the side of the interstate to watch the wreckage. Drop your
Jerry Springer mentality. And please, if you still have the need to
feed your gluttony of gore, peel your eyes away from Martha's f'n
Vineyard, because all you have to do is watch EC f'n W."

Edited March 6, 2019 by ChesterCopperpot

[Hagan]

RIGHT! Okay - firstly - how the fuck is this not online? It legitimately may be the most offensive thing on a wrestling show ever. Secondly - why the fuck did ECW allow this on its TV? There should be an oral history discussing the decision to allow this. I feel there should be public apologies. 

I remember watching this live and being completely flabbergasted. If I recall, it was literally like a week or so after his death, too. 

 

Edit: I was about to ask why it didn't win Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic in the WON but it aired on the 7/24/99 Hardcore TV and, well, some other real bad shit went down in '99. 

 

Further edit: upon further research - it didn't even place. Did no one watch ECW in '99? Did it not air nationally? I have so many questions.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Hagan

[Guest Edwin]

Is it odd I'm excited for WM 36 to be in Tampa mostly because I get to attend several indy shows I probably wouldn't be able to attend without having to travel hours to?

I'm more interested in attending Joey Janela's Spring Break 4, EVOLVE, the WWN SuperShow, etc. than WM 36 itself.

WM ticket prices are ridiculous. For the price for decent WM tickets, I can attend every indy show I want and buy all the merch I want, so I'm almost certain heading to Tampa for that weekend and then heading back home to catch WM on TV.

[Hagan]

I did my third Mania last year but my first one where there were the indy shows going down the same weekend. Definitely a huge reason for the trip. For Mania - I'd just grab a ticket on the cheap on Stubhub. Anything under 50 is reasonable. 

If you haven't been to a Mania it's def something to do once, just for the scope and spectacle. I attended the two NOLA ones and the Atlanta ones and can't say I was disappointed, despite the length.*

 

*the Atlanta show was my first one and I never thought I'd actually go so I had a good time. I know everyone hates the show. 

[NikoBaltimore]

3 minutes ago, Edwin said:

WM ticket prices are ridiculous. For the price for decent WM tickets, I can attend every indy show I want and buy all the merch I want, so I'm almost certain heading to Tampa for that weekend and then heading back home to catch WM on TV.

What's funny is that's my mindset this year.  Assuming I'm going I'll head up to Jersey/NY, catch some stuff and maybe get a cheap hotel to crash in afterwards.

[ChesterCopperpot]

29 minutes ago, Hagan said:

RIGHT! Okay - firstly - how the fuck is this not online? It legitimately may be the most offensive thing on a wrestling show ever. Secondly - why the fuck did ECW allow this on its TV? There should be an oral history discussing the decision to allow this. I feel there should be public apologies. 

I remember watching this live and being completely flabbergasted. If I recall, it was literally like a week or so after his death, too. 

 

Edit: I was about to ask why it didn't win Most Disgusting Promotional Tactic in the WON but it aired on the 7/24/99 Hardcore TV and, well, some other real bad shit went down in '99. 

 

Further edit: upon further research - it didn't even place. Did no one watch ECW in '99? Did it not air nationally? I have so many questions.

Googling it suggests it only aired in a few markets. MSG in NY cut the segment and the Philly station that did air them were bombarded with complaints - http://www.pwbts.com/columns/b080199.html

 

[Hagan]

That's wild. I'm here in Pensacola, Florida and ECW aired on either the Sunshine Network or the local public access that had a block of initially USWA, SMW and ECW. When the Tennessee territories went away, we got WILDSIDE!!!! and XPW and occasionally random one-off promotions. I miss syndicated wrestling so much. 

[supremebve]

3 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

My son has never seen a Misawa v. Kawada match. He is intrigued by how you can have a successful feud with one guy never beating his rival. What are the most important matches to show him?

How much time do you have?  If you really want to put the entire feud in context, I think you need to start with the Misawa and friends vs. Misawa and friends feud.  You get to see how Misawa takes over the position of company ace from Jumbo and how hard Jumbo fought to keep his position.  Then as soon as Jumbo is out of the picture you see Kawada start wondering why Misawa is getting all the credit when Kawada was fighting beside him the whole time.  If you really want to deep dive this feud start with the 6/8/90 Tsuruta vs. Misawa match.

Quote

6/8/90 - Tsuruta vs. Misawa (AJPW) *****

 

Misawa is out first and he's accompanied by Kobashi and Kawada.  The Misawa chants are already in full effect in what I understand is his first big match after losing the Tiger Mask.  Jumbo looks to show his dominance early with a big boot to the face and a tooth rattling lariat.  Misawa reverses a back drop and baseball slides Jumbo out to the floor.  He then hits his trademark rope flip followed by a drop kick to the floor.  Jumbo gets cut off coming back in and Misawa then hits a running pescado.  Misawa is definitely the plucky underdog here trying to stick and move, and use his speed to counter Jumbo's power.  While Misawa's strategy is to strike quick and avoid Jumbo's power moves, that doesn't mean he's scared.  He is here to win and even slaps Jumbo a couple times to make sure he knows that he ain't no bitch.  Misawa charges with a cross body, but Jumbo catches him and drops him into a stun gun and Jumbo brings the beatdown.  Jumbo hits some nasty knees and a powerbomb before getting his double arm suplex reversed into a back slide.  Misawa hits him with an elbow and baseball slides Jumbo back to the outside.  Misawa hits a pretty swank plancha from the top before going back in and attempting a bridging roll up.  Misawa goes to the top to hit his knee tap frog splash, but Jumbo gets the knees up.  Jumbo hits a couple of nasty assed lariats before going for the back drop.  Misawa kicks off the turnbuckle making Jumbo take most of the brunt of the backdrop on the back of his head and then hits a German suplex and goes for the Tiger Driver.  Jumbo reverses it and hits his jumping knee right to Misawa's face.  Jumbo sends him into the corner and Misawa tries a springboard crossbody, but Jumbo's ready and hits him with an elbow.  Jumbo charges for another jumping knee but Misawa moves and Jumbo gets hung in the ropes.  They fight over a vertical suplex, and Misawa drops behind and goes for a back drop.  Jumbo reverses in mid air, but Misawa rolls through for the pinfall.  This was a great match and the crowd popped huge for Misawa's win.  They absolutely love him.  Kobashi, and Kawada have to basically fight fans off to get him back to the locker room.  This seemed like a changing of the guard and a really historic moment.  This is very reminiscent of the Flair vs. Sting match from the first Clash where the young lion takes on the old vet, except the young lion wins here.  This is just about perfect.  The fans were behind Misawa in the beginning, but by the time he won, they damn near rioted.  This is how you elevate a guy, well worth *****.

 

10/19/90 - Tsuruta/Taue/Fuchi vs. Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi (AJPW) *****

 

This is one of those matches where you can just feel that something special is about to happen.  The last match made Misawa look like an absolute stud, and the crowd here is chanting his name from the very start.  Watching Misawa, Kawada, and Kobashi at this age is strange, because they all wrestle with a youthful exuberance that is just plain missing from the matches I've watched over the years.  They see the mountaintop, and they're running to the peak.  They see the veteran's time waning, and they are looking to take their spots.  I don't speak any Japanese, but the story of this match is clear as day.  The young guys are looking across the ring, staring down the veterans and telling them, "It's our time now."  The veterans are staring back saying "If you want my spot, you're going to have to pry it from my cold dead hands."  It works so well because of how both teams work.  The young'ns are all enthusiastic hitting their diving clotheslines and running around like lethal chickens with their heads cut off.  The vets are just surly assholes who are going to take their time and make this ass whooping count.  In the end the old school ass kickers get the win, but it is very apparent that the fans see Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi as the future.  This is the best six man tag I've ever seen, ***** is well deserved .  It is essentially perfect.  

If you just want to do the Misawa Kawada feud, this is where I would start.  10/21/92 Misawa vs. Kawada

Quote

10/21/92 - Misawa vs. Kawada (AJPW) ****1/2

 

I started high school in 1995 right when the internet started to become something that was readily available to everyone.  I was also about as hardcore of a wrestling fan as I could be.  I was aware of the existence of Japanese wrestling, but other than The Great Muta and Jushin Lyger, I hadn’t actually seen any.  So as a huge wrestling fan who was obsessed with wrestling, I quickly discovered the internet wrestling community, and was immediately fascinated by the discussion of puroresu.  I would read about all the great wrestling going on in Japan, and how guys like Eddy Guerrero and Chris Benoit had great matches in Japan before coming to the states.  So a few years later I got a job and with my first paycheck ever I went to Highspots.com and ordered the Super J Cup 1994 and 1995(with a money order, because I didn't have a checking account let alone a credit card).  With my next check I ordered the Best of Japan 1998 and The History of Misawa vs. Kawada.  I had read about Misawa and Kawada and their crazy suplexes and I had to see it for myself.  Of the four tapes I ordered, my least favorite was the Misawa vs. Kawada tape, I just couldn’t get into it for some reason.  The Super J Cups were the easiest, because I was so familiar with most of the competitors.  I had watched Benoit, Malenko, Lyger, and Guerrero in WCW, and even The Great Sasuke was in WWF for a match or two.  The Best of Japan 1998 was fun, because it was basically every type of match from every promotion all on one tape.  There were NJPW Jr. matches, a couple worked shoots, a Mr. Pogo deathmatch, a couple AJPW Heavyweight matches and a cool Hayabusa vs. Masato Tanaka match from FMW.  The Misawa vs. Kawada tape didn’t hit me right away, I thought the matches were good, but I couldn’t really understand what made them so special.  So time went by and I learned more and more about Japanese wrestling, and eventually I revisited the Misawa vs. Kawada series. 

 

By that time I had spent probably a year watching wrestling with a more critical eye, and Misawa vs. Kawada spoke to me like the burning bush spoke to Moses.  Before these were just cool matches with hard strikes and cool suplexes, now they were so much more.  Misawa was Superman, he was all about truth, justice, and the All Japan way.  He was the invincible king of the promotion, but unlike Superman he had no kryptonite.  Kawada was Batman, he was a superhero in his own right, but he didn’t have any superpowers.  He was just a man, but he was crafty and tough as nails.  Kawada was as good as a man could be, but Misawa was more than a man.  The two of them started as friends, in order to rid the world of the previous King, and lead All Japan into a new direction.  The issue starts here where after Jumbo Tsuruta was deposed, Misawa was named King.  Misawa was the King in the sense that he wasn’t elected to rule, but he was ordained by God himself to rule over All Japan and lead them to the promised land.  Kawada was a freedom fighter who shed just as much blood, dripped just as much sweat, and cried just as many tears as Misawa.  He didn’t sign up to be ruled by Misawa, he wanted to rule himself.  There were going to be people who didn’t believe in the way Kawada ruled, but he didn’t care.  He was going to take the crown or he was going to die trying.

 

This is the beginning of that story.  The two men who rid the Kingdom of All Japan of the oppressive rule of Jumbo Tsuruta have a match to see who will assume the throne.  Kawada’s takes Misawa to the absolute limit, but at the end of the day Misawa proves that he is King.  Kawada is a bad assed mother fucker, who is more than a match for anyone on the planet.  He’s fought tooth and nail to make it to the top, but his fight is not finished.  He still has to take the throne, he still wants to wear that crown, but in order to be King he has to defeat Misawa.  Misawa isn’t going to just give up the crown, he fought just as hard to make it to the top as Kawada.  This is Kawada’s first shot at the crown, and Misawa put him down decisively.  To quote Omar Little, “If you come at the King, you best not miss.” 

 

[Guest Edwin]

For those of you who read Meltzer's stuff, does he review matches when giving his star ratings or does he just offer star ratings?

Are his reviews spot for spot reviews or does he just offer an opinion on what it is he liked or disliked?

[Hagan]

Just now, Edwin said:

For those of you who read Meltzer's stuff, does he review matches when giving his star ratings or does he just offer star ratings?

Are his reviews spot for spot reviews or does he just offer an opinion on what it is he liked or disliked?

It's mainly just a move for move recap with a couple of comments of commentary. His audio is much better for him talking about the story/emotional reaction to the match.

The move for move recap is such a relic of the days when people couldn't see everything but he's not gonna change his style on that. 

[Guest Edwin]

2 minutes ago, Hagan said:

It's mainly just a move for move recap with a couple of comments of commentary. His audio is much better for him talking about the story/emotional reaction to the match.

The move for move recap is such a relic of the days when people couldn't see everything but he's not gonna change his style on that. 

Thanks!

I personally prefer someone writing thoughts out than a move for move review as that stuff is pretty uninteresting specially when it's something I can watch myself.

[Guest Edwin]

Getting ready for WM 36!

Edited March 6, 2019 by Edwin

[keith_h]

4 hours ago, Lawful Metal said:

My son has never seen a Misawa v. Kawada match. He is intrigued by how you can have a successful feud with one guy never beating his rival. What are the most important matches to show him?

If you want just the essentials I'd go with the matches below.

Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (10/21/92) – Misawa makes his first Triple Crown defense against his partner.
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (07/29/93) – They finally bring the HATE here. Their first singles match with full on animosity.
1993 RWTL: Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi & Mitsuharu Misawa (12/03/93) – Best match of the feud up to this point. Sets the stage for the epic tags to come.
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (06/03/94) – Pure Art. One of the best matches you’ll ever see. 
World Tag Team Title: Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Kenta Kobashi & Mitsuharu Misawa (06/09/95) – In my opinion the best men’s tag match of all time, with a finish that was literally years in the making. Epic storytelling that will likely never be equaled. You need to see the back-story for it to truly work it’s magic. The very definition of a must see match, with some of the greatest selling/visuals/storytelling in a wrestling match that have ever been filmed.
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (07/24/95) – Misawa looks to avenge his first pin fall loss to Kawada. Great, great fast paced match. This one doesn’t get enough love.
1996 RWTL Final: Jun Akiyama & Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue & Toshiaki Kawada (12/06/96) – If 6/9/95 is the best men’s tag of all time, this is a close second. Kawada once again pins Misawa. A true classic all around.
Champions Carnival 1997 Finals: Toshiaki Kawada vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (04/19/97) – Kawada pins Misawa for the first time in singles competition... In less than 7 minutes...
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (06/06/97)
Champions Carnival 1998: Toshiaki Kawada vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (03/29/98 ) – 30 min draw. This was needed to set up the “no time limit” stipulation for their upcoming dome match.
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (05/01/98 ) – In front of a crowd of 58,300 at the Tokyo Dome, six years after their first Triple Crown match, five years since they were partners, and three years since getting his first pin over Misawa, Kawada FINALLY pins Misawa for the Triple Crown on the biggest stage possible.
Triple Crown: Toshiaki Kawada vs. © Mitsuharu Misawa (07/23/99) – Misawa faces Kawada in the final Triple Crown match they will ever have. 
Champions Carnival 2000: Toshiaki Kawada vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (03/31/00) – Kawada and Misawa meet for the final time in the champion’s carnival. This will be the last match they will ever have against each other in an All Japan ring. 
Toshiaki Kawada vs. Mitsuharu Misawa (NOAH, 07/18/05) – In front of a huge Tokyo Dome crowd, at NOAH’s biggest show ever, and more than 12 years after their rivalry started, Misawa faces Kawada for the final time. 

Edited March 6, 2019 by keith_h