Kiss From Mandy Rose On A Graves - SDL - 2/5/2019

[Beech27]

Different countries and cultures are different, but: There was a Japanese news program last year about how NJPW pushed their attendance up over 50% women, a shift that has been largely responsible for its ascendancy. Basically, they took the Dragon Gate/boy band model of putting a mostly good-looking roster in perpetual faction warfare, which suggests complicated social dynamics and the capacity for your favorites to get along with other people. Fans can invest in their sometimes imagined theories (the same impulse that drives fanfiction, even if it doesn't always result in it) and invest more tangibly in the merchandise. I don't think anyone would argue WWE should adopt New Japan's model, and the storytelling has to be more explicit, but maybe there's something there. Certainly, I remember everyone insisting Roman would have had an easier time with every demographic, had The Shield just stuck together. Maybe we could speculate that Becky and Charlotte's friendship-dissolving animosity has the opposite effect, and the angry loner archetype doesn't appeal as well to the young women/girls demographic? Of course, it might just be that teenagers simply aren't going to watch cable consistently no matter what you do--maybe the WWE network subscription numbers trend younger?--but doing something to reverse the negative trend would still be useful, if possible. 

[Burgundy LaRue]

9 hours ago, Rick said:

The anti-white undertones in that post are astounding, even for you.

Yes. Because discussing racism and how POC are needed for a viable fanbase is so anti-white. Ignore that I talked about women, children, and the LGBTQ community.

[MORELOCK]

9 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

One can make a good argument that Sasha would bring in a lot more fans than Becky if in the same position.

Could they? I don't think the ethnicity argument really holds up, if that's what you're hinting at.

The "Because Sasha is the best according to x DVDVR poster" argument that the last conversation about this devolved into certainly doesn't hold up.

I'd also love to see it broken down specifically how Sasha Banks's Instagram followers can/will translate to the company making a lot more money (relative to the other women) before someone references that number again.

For reference, the current follower counts of the women at over a million and where Sasha ranks:

Spoiler

Ronda: 12.1
Nikki: 8.1
Brie: 6.6
Paige: 5.2
Sasha: 3.8
Becky: 3.5
Alexa: 3.5
Charlotte: 3.4
Nattie: 3.4
Lana: 3.2
Renee: 2.4
Bayley: 2.3
Naomi: 2.3
Carmella: 2
Steph: 1.8
Mandy: 1.6
Nia: 1.5
Asuka:  1.4
Maryse: 1.1
Alicia: 1.1
Peyton: 1

 

[Burgundy LaRue]

1 hour ago, MORELOCK said:

Could they? I don't think the ethnicity argument really holds up, if that's what you're hinting at.

I was speaking more to Sasha being popular with women and kids. We can debate her in-ring ability to a point, but she has a dedicated fanbase that seems to have a lot of who WWE needs right now.

For the record, I'm not saying throw out the white men. But as several have mentioned, WWE has gotten down to the hardcore fandom. The biggest and most vocal portion of that fandom are white heterosexual men. So if it stands to reason that they're still at least partially interested in the product enough to buy tickets and subscribe to the network, looking at bringing back women and  non-whites is important.

Inclusion is not a  bad thing. It's how society is supposed to work and what companies do to make more money.

To Beech's point, The Shield did well in part because they were something like a boy band. Also, two members being somewhat racially ambiguous probably played a part.

Becky-Charlotte feels like it should click more. It's a variation of the Betty and Veronica frenemies dynamic. Even both of them fighting over who beats Ronda to become champ is a stand-in for Archie. There's a relatability within it, but it's not being shown. Not sure how they do that, but whatever they do can't be worse than losing even more female viewers.

[Burgundy LaRue]

7 hours ago, Rick said:

Going back to Burgendy's point on turning up the volume on minority groups. How is that possible without alienating your main demographic? The unfortunate reality is not every wrestling fan is susceptible to rapid change.

The rapid change is or at least was there. A while back, WWE said 40% of their fanbase are women. That's not a minority group. Likewise, Blacks have enjoyed wrestling when given good representation. Same with Hispanics, Asians, non-heterosexuals. 

Why is true inclusion such a problem?

If certain fans can't deal with new fans coming in, that's on them and speaks to a larger problem within their lives.

ETA: 67% of Raw's viewers this week were men. Both shows are leaking women, despite the women's division having the hottest story in the company. How do they stop that? That's the billion-dollar question.

[Craig H]

52 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Could they? I don't think the ethnicity argument really holds up, if that's what you're hinting at.

The "Because Sasha is the best according to x DVDVR poster" argument that the last conversation about this devolved into certainly doesn't hold up.

I'd also love to see it broken down specifically how Sasha Banks's Instagram followers can/will translate to the company making a lot more money (relative to the other women) before someone references that number again.

For reference, the current follower counts of the women at over a million and where Sasha ranks:

  Reveal hidden contents

Ronda: 12.1
Nikki: 8.1
Brie: 6.6
Paige: 5.2
Sasha: 3.8
Becky: 3.5
Alexa: 3.5
Charlotte: 3.4
Nattie: 3.4
Lana: 3.2
Renee: 2.4
Bayley: 2.3
Naomi: 2.3
Carmella: 2
Steph: 1.8
Mandy: 1.6
Nia: 1.5
Asuka:  1.4
Maryse: 1.1
Alicia: 1.1
Peyton: 1

 

I think it's safe to say that Instagram followers can't and doesn't translate into additional views or more money made considering that Ronda tops that list of yours, has almost 4 times as many followers, and Ronda doesn't do jack shit for ratings or merchandise.

[J.T.]

I love the evil foreigners unit of Rusev and Nak, but I am not sure how I feel about Gallows and Anderson being the doormats of the tag division.  I am thinking they'd be better off going back to Japan and joining the Bullet Club OGs.

Only in the WWE could you build a heel gimmick with a Climate Change backstory.  I cannot wait for Bryan to draw heat while talking about the virtues of Composting and Renewable Energy..

There are no words for how much I love Becky and her insane Twitter account.  Her shit talking is fucking amazing!  The person that said that she is the new Stone Cold was spot on.

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Gallows and Anderson should consider themselves lucky they get on TV. It's more than poor Primo and Epico get. And where the fuck are Sanity again?

[Overly Critical Man]

All this talk about Instagram followers and bringing in women has led me to one conclusion and the only logical conclusion: 

Nikki Bella is number one and the best.

[OSJ]

2 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The rapid change is or at least was there. A while back, WWE said 40% of their fanbase are women. That's not a minority group. Likewise, Blacks have enjoyed wrestling when given good representation. Same with Hispanics, Asians, non-heterosexuals. 

Why is true inclusion such a problem?

If certain fans can't deal with new fans coming in, that's on them and speaks to a larger problem within their lives.

ETA: 67% of Raw's viewers this week were men. Both shows are leaking women, despite the women's division having the hottest story in the company. How do they stop that? That's the billion-dollar question.

Definitely a billion dollar question and I for one am not smart enough to figure out what the answer may be. You currently have the hottest act in NA wrestling as a woman, and an Irish woman at that (you know I had to slip that one in there), why is Becky not bringing in droves of fans as Steve Austin did? I just don't know, she energizes the base, she gets old-time fans like me to watch again (well at least to watch segments that she's in), but she doesn't seem to be drawing in or even retaining the female fanbase and I'm not sure why. 

As far as the Twitter and Instagram stuff, I remain blissfully ignorant of such things, I'm sure that I must be missing some profound observations on the nature of humankind by folks who get paid a shit-ton of money to fake fight, but I'll live. 

[Burgundy LaRue]

1 hour ago, Overly Critical Man said:

All this talk about Instagram followers and bringing in women has led me to one conclusion and the only logical conclusion: 

Nikki Bella is number one and the best.

You're not wrong. The Bellas are mainstream enough to where they were bringing in women to WWE who originally only watched Total Divas. Combine Total Divas' decline with The Bellas not being on WWE shows along with Roman being gone, and plenty of women have stopped watching.

To @OSJ's question: as hot as Becky's story is for diehards, there is a certain disconnect to her underdog cry. She thinks Stephanie and Triple H are looking to undermine her as part of the corporate machine. But it was a cog in that same machine, Fit Finlay, that allowed her to enter the Rumble without being an official participant. She's the first-ever SDL women's champion. One of WWE's 4 Horsewomen. She came to the main roster as part of the women's revolution. She's not some tragically overlooked talent. And until a few months ago, she seemed to have no problem with the corporate structure. So the idea of her fighting the system rings hollow. That's a simplistic explanation, but I think it's a start to the overall situation.

[OSJ]

4 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

You're not wrong. The Bellas are mainstream enough to where they were bringing in women to WWE who originally only watched Total Divas. Combine Total Divas' decline with The Bellas not being on WWE shows along with Roman being gone, and plenty of women have stopped watching.

To @OSJ's question: as hot as Becky's story is for diehards, there is a certain disconnect to her underdog cry. She thinks Stephanie and Triple H are looking to undermine her as part of the corporate machine. But it was a cog in that same machine, Fit Finlay, that allowed her to enter the Rumble without being an official participant. She's the first-ever SDL women's champion. One of WWE's 4 Horsewomen. She came to the main roster as part of the women's revolution. She's not some tragically overlooked talent. And until a few months ago, she seemed to have no problem with the corporate structure. So the idea of her fighting the system rings hollow. That's a simplistic explanation, but I think it's a start to the overall situation.

Were it not for the fact that I have trouble believing that the average WWE fan can recall what they had for breakfast, let alone the beginnings of the Women's Revolution I'd say that this was spot on. While I would point out that Finlay allowing her in the Rumble is so totally Irish, WWE never seems to be able to get their head around such subtleties.  

[Guest The Magnificent 7]

5 hours ago, J.T. said:

I love the evil foreigners unit of Rusev and Nak, but I am not sure how I feel about Gallows and Anderson being the doormats of the tag division.  I am thinking they'd be better off going back to Japan and joining the Bullet Club OGs.

Only in the WWE could you build a heel gimmick with a Climate Change backstory.  I cannot wait for Bryan to draw heat while talking about the virtues of Composting and Renewable Energy..

There are no words for how much I love Becky and her insane Twitter account.  Her shit talking is fucking amazing!  The person that said that she is the new Stone Cold was spot on.

I don’t watch WWE, but from what I’ve garnered from snippets here and there is that Bryan’s character is a Malthusian and angry vegan and those are the worst people that ever walked the earth so is deservedly heel.

In an ideal scenario Stone Cold would show up with waders, a German short-haired Pointer, and a duck draped over his back and give him twelve stunners.

I am married to a vegetarian btw. 

[Rev Ray]

39 minutes ago, The Magnificent 7 said:

I don’t watch WWE, but from what I’ve garnered from snippets here and there is that Bryan’s character is a Malthusian and angry vegan and those are the worst people that ever walked the earth so is deservedly heel.

In an ideal scenario Stone Cold would show up with waders, a German short-haired Pointer, and a duck draped over his back and give him twelve stunners.

I am married to a vegetarian btw. 

RIP Hershey, we miss you every day.  And the PED taking rats.  And woodpecker eating the BSR.  That's the feud, Bryan going after Austin for killing that woodpecker.

[Guest The Magnificent 7]

12 minutes ago, Rev Ray said:

RIP Hershey, we miss you every day.  And the PED taking rats.  And woodpecker eating the BSR.  That's the feud, Bryan going after Austin for killing that woodpecker.

Cats are the true genocidal maniacs, killing billions of birds every year, not hunters. I bet you that Bryan has a bunch of cats. The only time they aren’t lazy is when they are outside a mass-murderin’  

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

6 hours ago, Craig H said:

I think it's safe to say that Instagram followers can't and doesn't translate into additional views or more money made considering that Ronda tops that list of yours, has almost 4 times as many followers, and Ronda doesn't do jack shit for ratings or merchandise.

Ronda was a proven draw for UFC. Brock was a proven draw for both. I don't think Ronda is the problem, she has a following, it's creative that have failed to captivate that audience.

[Eivion]

5 hours ago, Overly Critical Man said:

All this talk about Instagram followers and bringing in women has led me to one conclusion and the only logical conclusion: 

Nikki Bella is number one and the best.

In all seriousness whenever the Bellas were getting cheers it was noticeable that much of seemed to come from women.

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 minutes ago, Eivion said:

In all seriousness whenever the Bellas were getting cheers it was noticeable that much of seemed to come from women.

And women dressed up as the Bellas. Every show I've been to over the last 3 years had a ton of cosplay bellas around.

I don't think IG popularity means a lot but it's no surprise to me that the top 5 is Ronda, the bellas, Paige and Sasha. 

[Brian Fowler]

A ton of wrestling fans followed Brock to UFC

Few if any MMA fans have followed Brock and Ronda to WWE.

[Niners Fan in CT]

28 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

A ton of wrestling fans followed Brock to UFC

Few if any MMA fans have followed Brock and Ronda to WWE.

I remember Brock being a draw when he first came back.

[Brian Fowler]

Just now, Niners Fan in CT said:

I remember Brock being a draw when he first came back.

They got two or three good buyrates out of him, but I don't remember him having much impact on ratings.

[Craig H]

13 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Ronda was a proven draw for UFC. Brock was a proven draw for both. I don't think Ronda is the problem, she has a following, it's creative that have failed to captivate that audience.

That's what I was getting at. 

Also, there's a difference between Ronda or even Brock in the UFC. In the UFC, they're an attraction and feel special to see because they maybe fight 2 to 3 times per year (or did anyway).

In WWE, there's nothing really special about them when you see them so frequently or in Brock's case, no one gives a shit because they're probably tired if the same old shit by now. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said:

They got two or three good buyrates out of him, but I don't remember him having much impact on ratings.

Probably not I don't think WWE can expect a part time to make an impact on ratings though it was clear he wasn't going to be around much. I think they dropped the ball bigtime with Ronda so far. There was a ton of mainstream interest and coverage about her. They stuck her in a lot of boring weekly television. Remember the "oh shit!" Reactions to her stare down with Asuka? They should have done a big program out the gate.

[RIShane]

7 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

You're not wrong. The Bellas are mainstream enough to where they were bringing in women to WWE who originally only watched Total Divas. Combine Total Divas' decline with The Bellas not being on WWE shows along with Roman being gone, and plenty of women have stopped watching.

To @OSJ's question: as hot as Becky's story is for diehards, there is a certain disconnect to her underdog cry. She thinks Stephanie and Triple H are looking to undermine her as part of the corporate machine. But it was a cog in that same machine, Fit Finlay, that allowed her to enter the Rumble without being an official participant. She's the first-ever SDL women's champion. One of WWE's 4 Horsewomen. She came to the main roster as part of the women's revolution. She's not some tragically overlooked talent. And until a few months ago, she seemed to have no problem with the corporate structure. So the idea of her fighting the system rings hollow. That's a simplistic explanation, but I think it's a start to the overall situation.

I think a key issue is that many smark fans love Becky because of the perception of her formerly being "held back" (in juxtaposition to the company's alleged 'female Roman', and helped by Becky's adept use of social media), it was a crucial factor that made them get behind her character otherwise being presented as an asshole.  (There's a whole other issue about how sustainable this is given on all evidence, she's been booked extremely strong for more than six months now.) If you don't know the backstory, and indeed are a wrestling fan who doesn't care about smark narratives and rumours, then a big part of the character loses its resonance. 

Another concern I have about Becky's ability to connect to a bigger crowd and make new fans is that her promotional interviews tend to be so heavily kayfabed. It makes perfect sense for a crowd who's already familiar with her story, but is potentially offputting for those who are not, in a similar way that casuals don't expect actors to play their characters when they appear on talk shows.