Control Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Fuck, NOAH was the best for a good four or five years there. 2004-05 had peak NOAH and ROH. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, Oyaji said: Fuck, NOAH was the best for a good four or five years there. 2004-05 had peak NOAH and ROH. It was. Kobashi as ace era Noah is my favorite promotion timeline ever. One unbelievable card after another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1980 Studd in Japan just killing a guy. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bey Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kang Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bey Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 Just now, D.Z said: I don't think I like modern NOAH. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bey Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kang Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurningBeard Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Edwin said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf&Subs Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 7 hours ago, D.Z said: Top 5 Kobashi GHC title match, and super underrated. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 9 hours ago, Edwin said: Maybe derailing, but why is this "acceptable" no-selling? Like, why is this spot cool but fuck Seth Rollins, or the end of a Hogan match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf&Subs Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 35 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: Maybe derailing, but why is this "acceptable" no-selling? Like, why is this spot cool but fuck Seth Rollins, or the end of a Hogan match? KENTA is a weak little rookie, and Akiyama is taking his shots to prove his superiority over him. They do hurt him, but it’s more of a “Fuck you, I’m not showing weakness to your punk ass”. Although NOAH did go over board with that gap between young boys, and the establishment. Still, 90’s AJ, and 00’s NOAH had the best matches involving young boys ever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 25 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: Maybe derailing, but why is this "acceptable" no-selling? Like, why is this spot cool but fuck Seth Rollins, or the end of a Hogan match? It's an established narrative beat along career trajectories in Japanese wrestling. It happened to Akiyama when he was young; and now that he's hardened by experience and age, he can shrug off KENTA's offense. As KENTA gets better and older, he hits harder, and Akiyama (and others) react accordingly. It's a way of showing the progression of young talent. Which isn't to say anyone should or shouldn't like it, just that it's a decades-old tool that's proven pretty effective for Japanese audiences. There are other differences between Rollins, Hogan, and this--you could say the size difference makes it more believable, that Akiyama's expression shows struggle, and is thus selling of a kind--but mostly I think people here find no-selling effective when it fits the established language of a match/promotion. Nobody could really argue it didn't work when Hogan did it; I think you could suggest Rollins is too inconsistent with what he sells and when to impart as much meaning on his sequences. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edwin Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said: KENTA is a weak little rookie, and Akiyama is taking his shots to prove his superiority over him. They do hurt him, but it’s more of a “Fuck you, I’m not showing weakness to your punk ass”. + 1 minute ago, Beech27 said: It's an established narrative beat along career trajectories in Japanese wrestling. It happened to Akiyama when he was young; and now that he's hardened by experience and age, he can shrug off KENTA's offense. As KENTA gets better and older, he hits harder, and Akiyama (and others) react accordingly. It's a way of showing the progression of young talent. Which isn't to say anyone should or shouldn't like it, just that it's a decades-old tool that's proven pretty effective for Japanese audiences. There are other differences between Rollins, Hogan, and this--you could say the size difference makes it more believable, that Akiyama's expression shows struggle, and is thus selling of a kind--but mostly I think people here find no-selling effective when it fits the established language of a match/promotion. Nobody could really argue it didn't work when Hogan did it; I think you could suggest Rollins is too inconsistent with what he sells and when to impart as much meaning on his sequences. TL;DR -- unestablished organization Jr. vs. top 3 organization heavyweight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf&Subs Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 You see it a lot in Japanese anime too. Like Cell, no Celling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 I guess what I mean is that classic muscle-man no-sellers like Hogan and the Roadies always seemed to get a bad rap from Meltzer and "workrate" fans I guess because their no-selling took people out of the match. Matches like the above one tend to be heavily praised by the same people that take issue with Hogan and others. I personally think no-selling is just bad in general unless it's a Braun-Ellsworth situation, but if it's a matter of context, why does anyone have a real issue with Hogan and the Roadies no-selling in their matches? They're working characters within the contexts of their matches/companies too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 14 minutes ago, MORELOCK said: I guess what I mean is that classic muscle-man no-sellers like Hogan and the Roadies always seemed to get a bad rap from Meltzer and "workrate" fans I guess because their no-selling took people out of the match. Matches like the above one tend to be heavily praised by the same people that take issue with Hogan and others. I personally think no-selling is just bad in general unless it's a Braun-Ellsworth situation, but if it's a matter of context, why does anyone have a real issue with Hogan and the Roadies no-selling in their matches? They're working characters within the contexts of their matches/companies too. Honestly, I think you're somewhat arguing with people who aren't posting here. Meltzer isn't around, and I don't think he articulates his tastes well at all anyway. No one (here, now) is suggesting Hogan's hulk-up routine didn't work, wasn't "good", etc. It was just a very different presentation. Hogan no-sold with cartoonish theatricality, while Akiyama grimaces through strikes that are very much actually hitting him; but again, that's a difference of context/genre, not of performer. I think that's the other point here: Akiyama wasn't a famous no-seller; this is him deploying a very well established trope in Japanese wrestling. You see it when vets wrestle newbies, and/or when heavies wrestle juniors. This happens to be an example of both. So, Akiyama and KENTA here are performing within the established rules of their universe, speaking a language the fans know and understand. Rollins, I would suggest, sometimes no-sells in a way that stands out from the established fiction taking place around him. The Force works in Star Wars, but not Trek. That kind of thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, Beech27 said: Honestly, I think you're somewhat arguing with people who aren't posting here. Meltzer isn't around, and I don't think he articulates his tastes well at all anyway. No one (here, now) is suggesting Hogan's hulk-up routine didn't work, wasn't "good", etc. It was just a very different presentation. Hogan no-sold with cartoonish theatricality, while Akiyama grimaces through strikes that are very much actually hitting him; but again, that's a difference of context/genre, not of performer. I think that's the other point here: Akiyama wasn't a famous no-seller; this is him deploying a very well established trope in Japanese wrestling. You see it when vets wrestle newbies, and/or when heavies wrestle juniors. This happens to be an example of both. So, Akiyama and KENTA here are performing within the established rules of their universe, speaking a language the fans know and understand. Rollins, I would suggest, sometimes no-sells in a way that stands out from the established fiction taking place around him. The Force works in Star Wars, but not Trek. That kind of thing. This is almost exactly my thoughts. Hogan was a superhero, him no selling was pretty much the key to the character. He fights monsters, they kick his ass, until truth, justice, and racism helps him overcome the odds. The problem I have with Rollins no-selling is that it serves no story telling purpose. It isn't him being a super hero who is overcoming the odds. He isn't a wily vet, trying to show a young boy who's boss. He's just a dude who is so in love with his own offense he doesn't take the time to sell for his opponent, or at least that's how it comes off to me. I generally like Rollins, but that's my biggest pet peeve with his work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 January 2000. Yoshihiro Tajiri was amazing that year. 10 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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