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AEW - 2019


Dolfan in NYC

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9 hours ago, Archibald said:

Can't wait for "get woke, go broke" takes.

I would rather be forced to attend a 10 hour long Nickleback concert than watch a wrestling show trying to cram ANY type of politics down my throat. I watch wrestling to be entertained and have a good time, politics is the exact opposite of that. 

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On 1/19/2019 at 5:44 PM, Beech27 said:

Of course it’s a question mark. No one has said otherwise or promised brilliance, success, anything like that. Put another way: “Everyone involved might reverse years-old demonstrable beliefs about pro wresting” is technically true—no one can prove the future—but not a compelling argument. All we have to go on is all we have to go on.

But honestly, this ties to the problem with AEW right now- it's currently at a point where everyone believes that AEW is going to be "THEIR view, PERSONALLY, of what wrestling utopia is". Right now, they haven't said anything that can be said as a good example, but just enough so that no matter what you idealize a pro wrestling promotion as, you can claim "AEW is totally going to be that." 

This is possibly a bad thing for AEW, because we can safely say: AEW is going to be a good promotion. Possibly VERY GOOD, given that All In was a very good show. But the one thing that can turn fans against AEW is the hype getting to levels of "it'll be utopia".

 

As far as the wrestling vs. outside the ring stuff...the big problem with that is that by and large, fans care so much about the outside the ring stuff that they cease to care about even the inside the ring stuff. 

It's the big problem WWE has had- where the fans have fully rejected the WWE's reality and substituted their own. The fans don't care about the matches, the storylines, or anything- it's down to "I like THIS PERSON. I'm ride or die for THIS PERSON, and ONLY this person. Any storyline that leads to my favorite as the World Champ is good, any storyline leading to anyone else as the champ is bad. Any match that isn't getting my favorite closer to the Iron Throne [not "the champ", but "In CENA'S SPOT/REIGNS'S SPOT"] is worthless. 

 

 

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45 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I would rather be forced to attend a 10 hour long Nickleback concert than watch a wrestling show trying to cram ANY type of politics down my throat. I watch wrestling to be entertained and have a good time, politics is the exact opposite of that. 

Everything is political.

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1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

But honestly, this ties to the problem with AEW right now- it's currently at a point where everyone believes that AEW is going to be "THEIR view, PERSONALLY, of what wrestling utopia is". Right now, they haven't said anything that can be said as a good example, but just enough so that no matter what you idealize a pro wrestling promotion as, you can claim "AEW is totally going to be that." 

This is possibly a bad thing for AEW, because we can safely say: AEW is going to be a good promotion. Possibly VERY GOOD, given that All In was a very good show. But the one thing that can turn fans against AEW is the hype getting to levels of "it'll be utopia".

 

As far as the wrestling vs. outside the ring stuff...the big problem with that is that by and large, fans care so much about the outside the ring stuff that they cease to care about even the inside the ring stuff. 

It's the big problem WWE has had- where the fans have fully rejected the WWE's reality and substituted their own. The fans don't care about the matches, the storylines, or anything- it's down to "I like THIS PERSON. I'm ride or die for THIS PERSON, and ONLY this person. Any storyline that leads to my favorite as the World Champ is good, any storyline leading to anyone else as the champ is bad. Any match that isn't getting my favorite closer to the Iron Throne [not "the champ", but "In CENA'S SPOT/REIGNS'S SPOT"] is worthless. 

 

 

1. I think, if AEW is successful—however we define that—then fan entitlement could become an issue for sure. Bill yourself as “for the fans”, then people think they’re that fan—natural enough. I think the unique challenge for them is that their younger fan base grew up somewhere between Harry Potter and Overwatch, and thus learned not just to be a fan but how to live and operate in a fandom. This isn’t a “damn kids” screed—I’m 30, loved Harry Potter, Avatar, so... yeah—but it is something to be aware of. Cultivating that investment has worked for them—Kenny has said many times he wrestles for fans of Marvel movies—but it can backfire if they feel scorned. We made you! We can destroy you! 

2. Even WWE, with their older fan base, has that problem. People want their favorites pushed, often at the exclusion of coherent narrative. I think this is somewhat WWE’s doing, though. They’ve told us forever, often quite literally, that they’ll push who we like; and then they book most people on mostly the same level. So if everyone is equally good, why shouldn’t they push my favorite?

3. I think this is one of the key lessons from a sports presentation and why “wins and losses matter” isn’t totally a plattitude. At least pretend the guys who win do so because they’re the best. I don’t mean to belabor the New Japan angle, but... I mean, no one ever said Okada was champ forever because of ~the universe~. There were layered stories to most every defense, but he won because he was better. That’s enough!  

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1 hour ago, Beech27 said:

1. I think, if AEW is successful—however we define that—then fan entitlement could become an issue for sure. Bill yourself as “for the fans”, then people think they’re that fan—natural enough. I think the unique challenge for them is that their younger fan base grew up somewhere between Harry Potter and Overwatch, and thus learned not just to be a fan but how to live and operate in a fandom. This isn’t a “damn kids” screed—I’m 30, loved Harry Potter, Avatar, so... yeah—but it is something to be aware of. Cultivating that investment has worked for them—Kenny has said many times he wrestles for fans of Marvel movies—but it can backfire if they feel scorned. We made you! We can destroy you! 

2. Even WWE, with their older fan base, has that problem. People want their favorites pushed, often at the exclusion of coherent narrative. I think this is somewhat WWE’s doing, though. They’ve told us forever, often quite literally, that they’ll push who we like; and then they book most people on mostly the same level. So if everyone is equally good, why shouldn’t they push my favorite?

3. I think this is one of the key lessons from a sports presentation and why “wins and losses matter” isn’t totally a plattitude. At least pretend the guys who win do so because they’re the best. I don’t mean to belabor the New Japan angle, but... I mean, no one ever said Okada was champ forever because of ~the universe~. There were layered stories to most every defense, but he won because he was better. That’s enough!  

Realistically, this is what all the talk of story telling and wins and losses should boil down to. When it's time for THE MATCH in a feud or program, the guy at the end when because he's better. Of course if its the heel winning in the end, he wins because he is better at being an evil cheating prick then the guy he's fighting. Shit's really not brain surgery

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I don't mind a heel winning without shenanigans. That's one of my least favourite parts of traditional American wrestling. How does a guy suddenly become god tier after a babyface turn when he's had to cheat to win for a lengthy period of time previously? Maybe if they had him or her slowly improve or something as he or she learns to win the "right way" but how often has that happened? It's 0 to 100.

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So next Friday is when omega and any potential surprises from new japan will be free agents. I’ve been surprised that there hasn’t been an announcement for tickets for double or nothing yet. Perhaps they want to pair it with another big announcement? I’m thinking we get an omega signing announcement with a double or nothing ticket announcement. 

Being in California I got so excited about a Vegas show because Vegas is generally cheap and easy for me. It wasn’t until I tried booking rooms and flights that I even realized it was a holiday weekend and everything was super expensive. 

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Quote

1. I think, if AEW is successful—however we define that—then fan entitlement could become an issue for sure. Bill yourself as “for the fans”, then people think they’re that fan—natural enough. I think the unique challenge for them is that their younger fan base grew up somewhere between Harry Potter and Overwatch, and thus learned not just to be a fan but how to live and operate in a fandom. This isn’t a “damn kids” screed—I’m 30, loved Harry Potter, Avatar, so... yeah—but it is something to be aware of. Cultivating that investment has worked for them—Kenny has said many times he wrestles for fans of Marvel movies—but it can backfire if they feel scorned. We made you! We can destroy you! 

Honestly, that is going to be a question mark because knowing how to live and operate in a fandom has basically devolved from the "I am a fan of this" to "this defines my life, and anything that isn't exactly what I want" is worthless.

That fact is why it's going to be terrible for AEW: We've seen startup companies before, and whenever a startup company hits, there always seems like this fanbase that's convinced that THIS is the one, THIS is the company that's going to change everything and destroy WWE- and AEW is no exception.

"But they have a great roster!" So did Main Event Championship Wrestling. What happened there?

"But they have a billionaire sports team owner paying the bills!" So did that promotion the Wilpons were going to start. What happened there?

"But they have made a show, and just need a TV slot!" So did XWF. What happened there?

"But they have knowledge of angles and can put on a show!" So did that promotion people Kickstarted and vanished. What happened there?

 

Quote

3. I think this is one of the key lessons from a sports presentation and why “wins and losses matter” isn’t totally a plattitude. At least pretend the guys who win do so because they’re the best. I don’t mean to belabor the New Japan angle, but... I mean, no one ever said Okada was champ forever because of ~the universe~. There were layered stories to most every defense, but he won because he was better. That’s enough!  

Honestly, that also ties to a related problem for 2- ultimately, the biggest problem is less "make wins and losses matter" and more a trust issue than anything.

With New Japan, last year they made a lot of BAD booking decisions (give Omega the title when he had been surpassed by Naito and send Naito down the card waiting for a Jericho feud), but it didn't matter not because wins and losses matter, but because ultimately, the fans trust them. The fans trust "I may not get what I want, but eventually I will", and so they are willing to wait. 

By contrast, WWE doesn't have the fans' trust, and it's gone from hope ("I hope my favorite wins the title"), to mistrust ("You're not going to give my favorite the title. I want you to do it NOW, because I don't trust waiting"), to outright depression ("Oh, my favorite won the big one and is champion? Whatever. They're just going to lose it to a bodybuilder/a blonde anyway, and then I'll be sad when they lose it. I'd rather be miserable now while they're champion so it doesn't hurt as much when they finally lose.")

Unfortunately, that will be a bigger issue: How do you make wins and losses or storylines matter to a fanbase that rejects your reality and substituted their own?

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I think the AEW powers that be at  least are ahead of the game at this stage because of the trust issue SorceressKnight brought up. The fans have faith and the elite crew have built up enough good will that (a)they know what the fans want and (b)they want to give it to them. I think we all know that this is not going to be a perfect flawless operation right out of the gate(at least we should know that). But The Elite have built up enough goodwill and trust with their fans that even through the inevitable missteps that literally every other company makes, the fans will still be there. People can and will say what they want about this group, but All In was not something they just dumb lucked into. They did the work and rode the wave into something successful(whether or not you like the show, selling out a 10000 seat arena like they did is a success).

They may all trip and fall out on their face, and then Nelson came pop out from the bushes and say "HAW HAW". But until that point, I'm curious to see how it goes

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7 hours ago, sabremike said:

I would rather be forced to attend a 10 hour long Nickleback concert than watch a wrestling show trying to cram ANY type of politics down my throat. I watch wrestling to be entertained and have a good time, politics is the exact opposite of that. 

 

I want more politics in wrestling- at least the good kind.   I'd be fine with ZSJ subbing a shark Ibushi rode in on then going into a Survival Tobita-esque rant about glorious socialism.  That CEO show is what gives me confidence in AEW- yes, it was massively helped by having Hiromu and Naito along for the ride, but they booked that show for the CEO audience, which was not a standard indy wrestling audience, it was an audience that was majority competitive fighting game players, which is like the core audience AEW will have.  If there's one thing the Elite excel at, it's video game paced wrestling.  (the OWE guys will get over huge with this crowd too)

Because I this, I predict that AEW and ROH will be very, very different products, which will be a good thing for both- and folks will jump back and forth between the two and feel fresh because of it.   I think the rivalry will end up being good for both promotions- they won't cannibalize each other.

 

That said, the trust issue- there's always going to be a few nutter fans who won't trust anything- there are folks who still give Kenny mad shit because a sex offender worked a dark match at his show when it was an oversight at worst that didn't harm anyone.

 

On the heels winning clean-ish, I think it should happen more.  Heels should cheat because it's fun/they like to hurt people as much as they should out of desperation.  

 

 

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To go back to the cable vs. streaming thing. I wonder if being successful on some sort of streaming channel could work, as on-demand/streaming seems to be more of the future. Netflix tried with LU. ESPN covers wrestling on their website and probably need fresh content for ESPN+. DAZN maybe? Maybe something where AEW drops a new episode each week

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6 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

Unfortunately, that will be a bigger issue: How do you make wins and losses or storylines matter to a fanbase that rejects your reality and substituted their own?

You're right about the prepositions and this question that logically follows. I think the advantage AEW has for now is an extremely invested fanbase with a (possibly unsustainably) high degree of buy-in. Put simply: AEW is a babyface promotion with babyface authority figures in the same way that WWE is a heel promotion with heel authority figures. (Of course not literally all the on-screen authority figures are heels, but Vince carries that albatross in a in and out of character fashion for everyone.) Fans want the promotion to succeed, and they want to like the product. If they can ride that initial wave of goodwill while building trust, I think things will be fine. If they can't, the backlash will be severe. (My guess is they won't squander that credit, but we'll see.)

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2 hours ago, zendragon said:

To go back to the cable vs. streaming thing. I wonder if being successful on some sort of streaming channel could work, as on-demand/streaming seems to be more of the future. Netflix tried with LU. ESPN covers wrestling on their website and probably need fresh content for ESPN+. DAZN maybe? Maybe something where AEW drops a new episode each week

They could be moderately successful but they’re clearly going for something way bigger. If the television fails to draw an audience, I can see them regressing to this. 

 

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2 hours ago, zendragon said:

Netflix tried with LU. 

I think it would be hard to categorize that as trying.  It was just a show they licensed, like a zillion other shows.  When they put some money into a promotion and slap their name on the front of it, that will be Netflix trying.  I can't imagine they ever will, though.  Maybe if GLOW had been a hit, they would've seen a market.  But it isn't.  That said, they're trying to take over every other TV format known to man, so maybe, in time, they'll get around to it.

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On 1/21/2019 at 8:17 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

Wrestling needs knight fights in like the middle of nowhere. Ratings gold.

SlimyNiftyBobwhite.gif

 

Look if the SCA had their own weekly TV show it would probably make thr SCA more petty and vindictive than it already is

James

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2 hours ago, Thibs said:

Little off topic but has anyone seen the Fyre music festival documentary on either Netflix or Hulu?

I had to turn the Netflix one off after a few minutes. I don't watch music festival documentaries that tell true stories about music festivals for the sake of telling true stories about music festivals. It probably would've gotten poor ratings on a major network.

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24 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I had to turn the Netflix one off after a few minutes. I don't watch music festival documentaries that tell true stories about music festivals for the sake of telling true stories about music festivals. It probably would've gotten poor ratings on a major network.

That wasn’t that funny. 

Did u actually watch it tho?

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3 hours ago, EVA said:

I think it would be hard to categorize that as trying.  It was just a show they licensed, like a zillion other shows.  When they put some money into a promotion and slap their name on the front of it, that will be Netflix trying.  I can't imagine they ever will, though.  Maybe if GLOW had been a hit, they would've seen a market.  But it isn't.  That said, they're trying to take over every other TV format known to man, so maybe, in time, they'll get around to it.

It isn’t? That really sucks. I was hoping they would spin off the fictional show within a show they had near the end of season 2.

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11 hours ago, matt925 said:

Being in California I got so excited about a Vegas show because Vegas is generally cheap and easy for me. It wasn’t until I tried booking rooms and flights that I even realized it was a holiday weekend and everything was super expensive. 

It's an interesting date to choose - because I guess a 3 day weekend is good for fly-ins, but most California "locals" know to stay the fuck away from Vegas on a holiday weekend and with that big of an arena I would think it be important to get that crowd to the show.    

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39 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

It isn’t? That really sucks. I was hoping they would spin off the fictional show within a show they had near the end of season 2.

It's a critical darling, but I don't know about its commercial success. 

The show-within-a-show they did was fun, but I think that's a card they've been well served by only playing the once (so far). 

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