2019 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[Execproducer]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I'm keeping it for now just because I might wanna keep up with a random promotion on there or look at a past event (and not necessarily). However, I wouldn't fault anyone for dropping it because these services are starting to pile up and most folks (just like WWE Network) are watching for new content.

I actually have dropped it because, like you said, this stuff is piling up. But once a few bills are paid, I'll be back to it. Since it usually takes a couple of months before ppv's show up and I don't have much interest in Dana TV, I'm paying for the the library. I used to rent Pancrase and PRIDE tapes back in the day and at some point I'm going to burn straight through everything they have and work through the smaller promotions as well.

[supremebve]

5 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

What's on Fight Pass, anyway? Are like the really old UFC shows with Tank Abott and shit on it?

--------

About that top 25 fights: is every Robbie Lawler fight just a wildly entertaining brawl?

Lawler is more than just a brawler, but I get your point.  The beauty of the Lawler title fights is that they were wild action fights, but were also fought at the highest possible level in one of the most talent-rich divisions.  There is a certain charm to a wild brawl, but having fights in that style, at that level, is really something special.  As far as pure entertainment value, Robbie Lawler's championship reign is about as good as it gets.  

[The Natural]

24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Lawler is more than just a brawler, but I get your point.  The beauty of the Lawler title fights is that they were wild action fights, but were also fought at the highest possible level in one of the most talent-rich divisions.  There is a certain charm to a wild brawl, but having fights in that style, at that level, is really something special.  As far as pure entertainment value, Robbie Lawler's championship reign is about as good as it gets.  

Robbie Lawler vs. Carlos Condit at UFC 195 was a classic and the fifth round was remarkable. Lawler won by split decision when I thought Condit was the victor. Condit wasn't the same after that and deserved an immediate rematch.

[The Natural]

One of my favourite fighters. @DreamBroken

[DreamBroken]

Damn, wish we had a Cruz comeback coming soon.. shame how often he's been out for so long. 

On Fight Pass, Invicta has always put on some of my favorite shows so as long as they keep that.

[Elsalvajeloco]

UFC 238 will be in Chicago on 6/8.

[AxB]

Considering the UFC now has two Nigerian main eventers, and chance they'll run a show in actual sub-Saharan Africa? Because yeah, I know they've run in the UAE before which is technically on the African continent (but it feels more like it's kind of more in the middle east than in like it's in Africa, if you get what I mean), but it would be good if they could run Lagos or Cape Town or something. I bet a lot of the fighters would like to go, anyway.

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 hours ago, AxB said:

Considering the UFC now has two Nigerian main eventers, and chance they'll run a show in actual sub-Saharan Africa? Because yeah, I know they've run in the UAE before which is technically on the African continent (but it feels more like it's kind of more in the middle east than in like it's in Africa, if you get what I mean), but it would be good if they could run Lagos or Cape Town or something. I bet a lot of the fighters would like to go, anyway.

I knew someone asked this question before and I answered it. Apparently, it was @Casey in the UFC 218 thread after Ngannou murked poor Overeem. I think my answer still holds up but I do have make an addendum.

Even if you do what I was saying to Edwin about UFC's expansion into South America outside of Brazil where you put two or three natives on the card, it still is a bit different than your normal situation where you just bank on a main event that may or not include someone from that country (i.e. Maia vs. Usman in Chile). The short answer is basically everyone ain't black the same. We're already past the whole thing where you put a quality prospect like Don Madge on a show in like Nigeria or Ghana since I already touched on that in my original answer above.

The longer version of this addendum:

Here is a little lesson .We have this growing political grassroots thing or term  (that I consider myself a part of) post Obama here in America that right now is mostly confined to YouTube, social media, and now various conferences called ADOS. ADOS in a nutshell is American Descendants of Slaves (originally DOS meaning just Descendants of Slaves). However, to differentiate itself from the institution all across the Americas from the transatlantic slave trade, many folks add the word chattel before slave or slavery. Hence, it's basically a more specific term for African-American as far the justice claim for reparations in the United States and the like and the fact that you have many Africans who emigrated to United States from the diaspora who aren't ADOS in the wake of the 1965 immigration act.

When we talk about MMA, we're talking about folks like Kamaru Usman who was born in Nigeria but raised in the DFW area which has a Nigerian enclave where you get other fighters like Mo Lawal (who has a Nigerian mother but ADOS father) who was also raised in that area after leaving Murfreesboro, TN as a child. It's not saying who is more black than the other, but looking at what folks are actually anchored in since black in America is more general now. Usman is clearly more rooted in Nigerian culture than Mo who to my knowledge never came out with a Nigerian flag or in Nigerian type garb. However, when you look at sort of the tension in the buildup between Woodley (ADOS) and Usman (Nigerian-American w/ Nigerian parents) to their fight, there is clearly a distinction that I notice as an ADOS person. Woodley usually talks some shit but he has dropped the other c word which isn't the c word reserved for women when discussing Usman and Usman doesn't want any part of that to the point where even on his Twitter asked why does race have be part of this. I don't think that's merely a coincidence because there has been this whole thing where a lot Nigerians refer to ADOS (again, a way more specific term for African-American) using a nasty term Akata (meaning wild animal). Most of the time, the parents use it but many young Nigerians (whether they were born in the US or somewhere else) also use that term for us. Not saying that Usman would use that term or he grew up hearing that from his parents when they came here, but that's a fairly common thing in Nigerian culture in reference to us when it comes the stereotype of ADOS being all ghetto, on welfare, having gold teeth, unrefined, uneducated, hip hop dances that they see as strange, how we eat and what we eat, speaking ebonics, etc. etc. People from other Africa (mostly West Africa) countries probably have similar terms, but Akata is the main one from Sub-Saharan Africa. A large part of why there is an ADOS movement is when you dig up old tweets of some of these Nigerian born/raised American pundits like a Luuvie Ajayi, you see them using that ugly term and now years later able to profit off ADOS culture. Hell, the reason why many folks were up in arms recently about Cynthia Erivo playing Harriet Tubman in an upcoming film was she tweeted and also retweeted several of those disparaging tweets about ADOS being Akata (and deleted them like most guilty folks would) or tweets showing utter disdain for ADOS from Luuvie Ajayi when she was just some actress in England and not a budding actress in the US like she is today. The way most of us in the movement feel, you can't have disdain for us (African-Americans or ADOS) and then profit from us and our struggle by playing African-American onstage and in film and winning awards. That's being a thief and an ungrateful one at that.

Therefore, it's about identity and that's what matters. Going back to MMA and combat sports in general, it is about what the fans see in that specific sense of identity and what they see as what those fighters are grounded in. People on here and other MMA forums were talking about Cain's inability to speak Spanish and how that would adversely affect his standing in Mexico. Golden Boy Promotions has a young fighter named Ryan Garcia in their stable. On the Canelo vs. Fielding undercard at MSG, when this guy came out, fought, and did his post fight interview, you would think it's the fucking Von Erichs in the Sportatorium or JYD at the Superdome. To say he is over would be a gross understatement. Ryan Garcia don't speak Spanish. Yet, the Mexican folks who came to support Canelo in the main event supported him like he was born and raised in Mexico. Unfortunately for guys like Usman, Sodiq Yusuff, Razak Al-Hassan (Ghanaian from the same DFW area that produced King Mo, Usman, and another UFC prospect Kennedy Nzechukwu), and maybe even Israel who spent most of his life in New Zealand, they are not the guys that would be magnetic for the crowds in that part of Africa. Israel being from New Zealand allows him cushion in New Zealand (in the same way Joshua and others in past and present have in the UK) unlike the Africans raised and reared here in the US like all the guys I mentioned who probably won't ever have a large African-American fanbase in the USA because they aren't ADOS like a Floyd Mayweather who brings out throngs of African-Americans to his fights. Sure, you will have a small section of folks with a Nigerian (or whatever Africa nation) flag waving it but it's mostly going to be white folks like most UFC shows. However, to come over to Sub-Saharan Africa knowing the conditions and lack of quality amenities suitable for a UFC show, it would have to fall to someone like a Francis Ngannou who spent most of his life there and not elsewhere. Also, there would have to be fighters from that nation and not a Nigerian-American or Ghanaian-American fighting in Cameroon. You would need actual Cameroonians because those folks would view those guys I mentioned as American blacks (even if they don't see themselves rooted in that culture like Usman) even if they clearly aren't ADOS. The same goes with Nigeria or Ghana. If you want to do a one off stadium show, it might work on the novelty factor. However, if we're talking repeat business that shows global domination like the UFC wants, they have to do the legwork that isn't "well, we got a bunch of African guys already and we scout regional U.S. shows all the time". That's showing total lack of understanding culture and identity. If it takes doing what they did for Yair Rodriguez and others from Mexico by sending them to AKA and Jackson/Wink, that's going further than just throwing random black Africans who fought in EFC on a card somewhere outside South Africa or booking people who spent a majority of their life elsewhere. The only thing that would be a saving grace is what I mentioned with Ryan Garcia. They have to have something that transcends just being whatever they identify as. Kamaru Usman don't have that, and that's not a knock on Usman. There ain't been a Muhammad Ali since Muhammad Ali. Maybe Usman could draw in Dallas and where again, a lot of Nigerians and people born to Nigerian parents live (shoutout to the lovely Demetria Obilor) but he ain't selling out no stadium in Sub-Saharan Africa (or Nigeria specifically). As much he claims Nigeria, he won't get that same love unless the folks over there see him as uniquely linked to the country enough to support him. Shit, you might as well put ADOS people like Tyron Woodley, Derrick Lewis, or Jon Jones or other non ADOS black fighters like Uriah Hall (Jamaica), OSP (Haiti), Aljamain Sterling (Jamaican parents), Leon Edwards (Jamaica), Yoel Romero (Cuba), or Anderson Silva (Brazil) in that same spot. The link can't just be Africa (a vast continent), "we all black the same", or the country itself.

[twiztor]

thank you for that very informative post. i fully appreciate reading about reactions within groups (whether that be cultures, fanbases, or what have you) that i am not a part of.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[supremebve]

I'm not going to quote all of @Elsalvajeloco's post, but society seems to think of black people as a monolith, and nothing could be further from the truth.  Not only are black people from the states and black people from Africa very different culturally, but black people from Houston and Dallas are also very different culturally.  Seriously, I've lived in two different states Ohio and Virginia and I'm here to tell you I don't know what is going on with those Cincinnati dudes or what's going on with anyone South of Richmond.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe that because Usman and Ngannou are Nigerian that anyone in Africa has any connection to them at all.  Not only that, but how many African countries have a significant level of MMA fandom to hold a card?  I'd imagine that is what would decide whether or not the UFC would have a show there, not the fact that they have a couple people with African sounding names near the top of the card.   

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 hours ago, supremebve said:

I'm not going to quote all of @Elsalvajeloco's post, but society seems to think of black people as a monolith, and nothing could be further from the truth.  Not only are black people from the states and black people from Africa very different culturally, but black people from Houston and Dallas are also very different culturally.  Seriously, I've lived in two different states Ohio and Virginia and I'm here to tell you I don't know what is going on with those Cincinnati dudes or what's going on with anyone South of Richmond.  There is no reason whatsoever to believe that because Usman and Ngannou are Nigerian that anyone in Africa has any connection to them at all.  Not only that, but how many African countries have a significant level of MMA fandom to hold a card?  I'd imagine that is what would decide whether or not the UFC would have a show there, not the fact that they have a couple people with African sounding names near the top of the card.   

If there is an "American" or Western sport that anyone in those African countries take up besides basketball, it's going to be boxing largely because they have legends like Dick Tiger (Nigeria) and Azumah Nelson (Ghana). I mean Azumah's village alone is still producing world boxing champions at a consistent rate. You don't think dudes like Sharif Bogere and Kassim Ouma got into it because Uganda produced Cornelius Boza Edwards and John Mugabi? 

Maybe the UFC can do what Evolve MMA did and open up gyms in certain countries, but timing and opportunity play such important roles. I say timing because obviously Cheick Kongo and Sokoudjou couldn't be the first ones out of the gate. Also, I remember when Rock Newman took Riddick Bowe right after Bowe won the titles on a tour of the African continent as sort of this unofficial diplomat. I get what Rock was trying to do in trying make Bowe (the fighter he manages) the next Ali, but even though that was a time around Apartheid and other strife in Africa, the timing didn't allow it to be genuine and organic like Ali. The reason why Don King could bring Ali to Zaire and do the Zaire 74/Soul Power concert with all these African-American and native African artists is this was not too long after Haile Selassie, Julius Nyerere, and Patrice Lumumba and a more cohesive Pan-African movement. Also, most of these countries were freshly independent from colonialism barely ten years earlier. Black people were reaching across the world with sincerity and reverence. Hip hop kicked it back up in the 80s and early 90s, but folks like Bowe and Michael Jordan wanted to be more apolitical than your Muhammad Alis and Jim Browns of the world. So despite the best efforts of Rock Newman, Bowe just ended up being a glorified tourist. It was the same when Lennox Lewis went over South Africa for the first Rahman fight. I don't think it would be any different if Anthony Joshua went over to do a stadium show in Lagos just because his parents are Nigerian.

Getting to the opportunity part...well most of them are abroad for a reason. I mean the Ghanaian government built a makeshift open air arena (Bukom Boxing Arena) for guys like Isaac Dogboe and Emmanuel Tagoe, but those guys are eventually U.S. bound for most of their career. Dogboe has already had a few bouts in the United States recently. Throughout the 90s and a good majority of the 00s, you had boxers go back and forth between their country of origin and the United States. However, look at how the UFC dangled the Croke Park carrot for McGregor? If Ngannou or even Adesanya becomes a big draw, you don't think all their bouts are in Las Vegas or NYC or Los Angeles? That's why I find it so hilarious with Top Rank Boxing and some of the predictments they found themselves in. There are only so many places in Nebraska you can have Terence Crawford fight. He's a big hometown draw but there is only so long you can fight the temptation of going big as a promoter. The only incentive for the UFC would be having the fact they went to Cameroon or Nigeria or Ghana and saying we sold out a stadium on their resume. If you want to just charge exorbitant amounts for tickets, you can just go to Johannesburg and said you ran Africa just like when UFC and Bob Arum said they were in China when it's just casino shows in Macau for high rollers. What do you actually want to accomplish? Grow the sport there, build a groundswell of support, and make sure you have a foothold? Even if you have initial success as expected, all that comes years down the line just like what happened with boxing and basketball.

[AxB]

Most likely if they go to Africa, they're doing it to say they did it. Or that they've run shows on every Continent (except Antarctica) in whatever time frame. There is an African MMA league though, it used to air on Eurosport sometimes. Not very good, I'm afraid.

To the earlier point, Black on black racism is something white people aren't supposed to know about, let alone speak on. But it is odd that people refuse to acknowledge the diversity of the African continent, even though they will accept European or Asian diversity.

[Elsalvajeloco]

25 minutes ago, AxB said:

Most likely if they go to Africa, they're doing it to say they did it. Or that they've run shows on every Continent (except Antarctica) in whatever time frame. There is an African MMA league though, it used to air on Eurosport sometimes. Not very good, I'm afraid.

To the earlier point, Black on black racism is something white people aren't supposed to know about, let alone speak on. But it is odd that people refuse to acknowledge the diversity of the African continent, even though they will accept European or Asian diversity.

I don't think it's as much about black and black racism as much as black people are more willing (especially people in the United States or spent a bulk of time here) to draw those lines of distinction in the social media era and then go back and cloak themselves in blackness (or African-American/ADOS culture if their immigrants) whenever it suits them. The thing that exacerbates is white people have no clue or oblivious about these distinctions and would rather have a catch-all. Say like...people of color.

Boxing in the lower weight classes got its bona fides through Mexico vs. Puerto Rico bouts. There are guys in the IBHOF off that alone. Have a fight like Mayweather vs. Berto and it's nothing that jumps off the page at you unless Berto comes out wrapped in a Haitian flag, eating a beef patty, and dressed like Dessalines or Toussaint Louverture all the while shouting "Sak Pase".

[supremebve]

3 minutes ago, AxB said:

Most likely if they go to Africa, they're doing it to say they did it. Or that they've run shows on every Continent (except Antarctica) in whatever time frame. There is an African MMA league though, it used to air on Eurosport sometimes. Not very good, I'm afraid.

To the earlier point, Black on black racism is something white people aren't supposed to know about, let alone speak on. But it is odd that people refuse to acknowledge the diversity of the African continent, even though they will accept European or Asian diversity.

I don't even know if I'd go as far as to call it black on black racism as much as there are black people all over the world who have nothing in common other than the color of their skin.  I think the resentment comes from people treating us like we're all the same.  I'm a full-blooded ADOS and I used to date a girl who was born, raised, and went to college in Ethiopia.  I can't think of a person on the planet who I have less in common with than her.  We're both black, but that is literally the only thing we have in common.  Not only that, genetically I probably have more in common than the average American white person than I do with her.  Africa has literally thousands of ethnic groups and a lot of them have never overlapped.  The odds of me and the average white person in America having a common ancestor is much higher than me having a common ancestor with someone from Ethiopia.  Do you know how annoying it is for someone who is born on the other side of the planet to be lumped in with someone with completely different experiences?  I remember her telling me her dad went to law school in Russia, and I was just staring at her like, "Is that something that people do?" The more we got to know each other, the more I realized that everything about us was different.  We were born to different types of parents, went to different types of schools, and lived completely and totally different lives, on opposite sides of the planet.  Being black is the single most superficial way that you could compare the two of us.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, supremebve said:

I don't even know if I'd go as far as to call it black on black racism as much as there are black people all over the world who have nothing in common other than the color of their skin.  I think the resentment comes from people treating us like we're all the same.  I'm a full-blooded ADOS and I used to date a girl who was born, raised, and went to college in Ethiopia.  I can't think of a person on the planet who I have less in common with than her.  We're both black, but that is literally the only thing we have in common.  Not only that, genetically I probably have more in common than the average American white person than I do with her.  Africa has literally thousands of ethnic groups and a lot of them have never overlapped.  The odds of me and the average white person in America having a common ancestor is much higher than me having a common ancestor with someone from Ethiopia.  Do you know how annoying it is for someone who is born on the other side of the planet to be lumped in with someone with completely different experiences?  I remember her telling me her dad went to law school in Russia, and I was just staring at her like, "Is that something that people do?" The more we got to know each other, the more I realized that everything about us was different.  We were born to different types of parents, went to different types of schools, and lived completely and totally different lives, on opposite sides of the planet.  Being black is the single most superficial way that you could compare the two of us.  

I think it goes without saying, if you're able date a girl from Africa without having to go to Africa, one if not BOTH of her parents are professionals. It would shock me if she didn't say something like that.

But to bring us back to MMA

 

With Cormier out for awhile, it's going to be interesting to see how spring and the middle of the year shakes out as far PPVs go. Right now, there are no interim champs but we could get some in the near future. However the lightweight title picture shakes out and how fast Whittaker heals is going to determine how the fights fall into place. I think the UFC wants to do McGregor vs. Cerrone for UFC 239 on International Fight Week but they're not going to headline that show with a non title bout especially they have title fights on that card. I think their preference would be Khabib vs. Ferguson and the winner fights the McGregor vs. Cerrone winner. However, Poirier is the odd man out and he is ready to fight one of those guys. They still need a headliner for UFC 236. They can headline that show with a title eliminator.

 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Jiji]

Until he contracts a new disease fight week as well as being kicked by a horse. Dude is cursed.

[AA484]

My top 100 UFC fights of 2018, part 1:

http://culturecrossfire.com/sports/the-top-100-ufc-fights-of-the-year-2018/

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Until he contracts a new disease fight week as well as being kicked by a horse. Dude is cursed.

Maybe he can only defend his title in Chicago?

[supremebve]

34 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Maybe he can only defend his title in Chicago?

Yeah, the last time the Middleweight championship was defended is when GSP beat Michael Bisping.  That entire division has been cursed since Bisping won the title and refused to fight any relevant contenders.

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Yeah, the last time the Middleweight championship was defended is when GSP beat Michael Bisping.  That entire division has been cursed since Bisping won the title and refused to fight any relevant contenders.

I don't think he refused as much as he was under the UFC's marching orders. Michael Bisping is going to do everything the UFC wants him to do. He's the ultimate company man. They wanted GSP to come back and Georges didn't want to fight Woodley. Plus, Mike was willing to talk the fight up and they were going to do a much better number than any other fight at MW. The thing is...GSP ain't passionate about fighting and hasn't been in years. Dana has stuck his foot in his mouth on a number of occasions, but I felt he was right about Georges not actually wanting to fight. There were rumors about Georges wanting to retire months before he fought Hendricks but just not on any MMA websites or forums. I know they wanted to pop a buyrate in the absence of McGregor and Ronda, but if you know this dude has no passion and really honestly only coming back for one payday, let him fight someone who isn't champ. Dana let motherfuckers goad him into allowing Georges to get his way when it should have been an ultimatum where either he comes back as a full time fighter or he don't come back at all like Dana had been saying the entire time. I don't care how many goddamn training videos Ariel Helwani retweets. GSP don't decide what fights you wanna make. He ain't trying to fight any contenders at 170 or 185 if he wins either belt? Fuck him then.

[supremebve]

10 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I don't think he refused as much as he was under the UFC's marching orders. Michael Bisping is going to do everything the UFC wants him to do. He's the ultimate company man. They wanted GSP to come back and Georges didn't want to fight Woodley. Plus, Mike was willing to talk the fight up and they were going to do a much better number than any other fight at MW. The thing is...GSP ain't passionate about fighting and hasn't been in years. Dana has stuck his foot in his mouth on a number of occasions, but I felt he was right about Georges not actually wanting to fight. There were rumors about Georges wanting to retire months before he fought Hendricks but just not on any MMA websites or forums. I know they wanted to pop a buyrate in the absence of McGregor and Ronda, but if you know this dude has no passion and really honestly only coming back for one payday, let him fight someone who isn't champ. Dana let motherfuckers goad him into allowing Georges to get his way when it should have been an ultimatum where either he comes back as a full time fighter or he don't come back at all like Dana had been saying the entire time. I don't care how many goddamn training videos Ariel Helwani retweets. GSP don't decide what fights you wanna make. He ain't trying to fight any contenders at 170 or 185 if he wins either belt? Fuck him then.

 It is becoming more and more apparent that they do not have a matchmaking plan anymore, and the Bisping title reign was the beginning.  Henry Cejudo beat Demetrious Johnson, and they immediately started trying to phase out the entire division.  They made a champion vs champion match hoping that TJ Dillashaw would put the division out of its misery...but he was knocked out in less than a miinute.  Now, there aren't enough Flyweights to really have a division, and TJ Dillashaw looks like a bitch.  Marlon Moraes should be fighting for the bantamweight championship, but odds are Henry Cejudo will be jumping him in line.  Featherweight may be in the best position of any division in the company. The only problem is that it is pretty apparent that Jose Aldo is the next best Featherweight, except they can't make that fight again. Lightweight has a champion who is suspended and threatening not to fight in Las Vegas.  The number one contender is either Dustin Poirier or Tony Ferguson...if Conor McGregor wins a fight he'll get the next title shot.  Welterweight is in a decent position, but I have no idea how Colby Covington got passed over for a title shot.  There hasn't been a Middleweight title fight since 2017, and the current champion didn't beat the previous champion.  Light Heavyweight is a mess, because it is kind of a 2 man division and one of those dudes is the Heavyweight champion and the other can't be trusted to not get suspended.  Heavyweight is the champion, the former champion who the current champion seems to have no interest in fighting, and about 5 other dudes who are supremely flawed.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Hail Sabin]

Hopefully that's on Paramount and not DAZN.