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Elsalvajeloco

2019 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

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13 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Re: The Bisping eye, apparently that's a prosthetic that he wears over the eye. You can tell right as he takes it out that it's flat on one side if you look close.

At least, that's what a buddy of mine has said and it appears so

No, that makes sense.

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I want to say that Kevin Randleman was involved in an MMA tag several years back.  Probably in Japan but I'm not sure.

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There was a 30 for 30 about the Liddell vs Ortiz rivalry, and the first thing that came to mind when I saw the commercial was, "that's not very interesting."  I honestly feel like you can watch the fights and know everything you need to know about that rivalry.  It's just not that deep of a subject.  So, if you had the ability to get an MMA documentary made, what would be the subject?

I think the MMA documentary I'd be most interested in is the Lee Murray story.  

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44 minutes ago, supremebve said:

There was a 30 for 30 about the Liddell vs Ortiz rivalry, and the first thing that came to mind when I saw the commercial was, "that's not very interesting."  I honestly feel like you can watch the fights and know everything you need to know about that rivalry.  It's just not that deep of a subject. 

I forgot to DVR it last night, but I'm pretty sure I will be able to record a future showing. It looks okay to me. I think this is more for casual MMA fans more than hardcores so they likely won't be going back and watching the fights. Also, if they manage to add context behind it, it could turn out good. I think what hurts it maybe is it is fairly recent compared to every other 30 for 30. I mean I use to love when ESPN did the SportsCentury stuff going year-by-year in the 1990s. That was good. Chuck and Tito just fought again last year. The more space between events the more intrigue you could add in the retelling.

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So, if you had the ability to get an MMA documentary made, what would be the subject?

Evan Tanner

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu in the Vale Tudo era up until the founding of the UFC

The Rise and Fall of PRIDE if they can get some of the Japanese execs to talk about the yakuza connection and the death of Naoto Morishita

Karelin's dominance in wrestling ending with the Rulon Gardner loss

The story of the Lion's Den covering Bob Shamrock and the careers of Frank and Ken

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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On 10/16/2019 at 9:31 AM, Elsalvajeloco said:

The story of the Lion's Den covering Bob Shamrock and the careers of Frank and Ken

this gets my vote.

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14 minutes ago, twiztor said:

this gets my vote.

I honestly would rather watch a documentary about the Tito Ortiz vs. Lion's Den rivalry than the Tito vs. Chuck doc that we got.  If nothing else the Tito/Lion's Den doc would be unintentionally hilarious.  We joke about Joanna, and Henry Cejudo's cringe worthy status, but Tito and Ken Shamrock are the undisputed kings of cringe.  

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59 minutes ago, supremebve said:

I honestly would rather watch a documentary about the Tito Ortiz vs. Lion's Den rivalry than the Tito vs. Chuck doc that we got.  If nothing else the Tito/Lion's Den doc would be unintentionally hilarious. 

I would say Chuck vs. Tito is way more interesting than Tito vs. the Lion's Den if we're talking about individual isolated subjects just because that's the throughline for the first half decade of Zuffa ownership. I think if they covered the tail end of SEG and the first two or three years of Zuffa owning the UFC, that would be decent part of it because Tito vs. Ken Shamrock in 2002 finally got UFC off the schneid in terms of coverage when the sport was taken off PPV by most distributors. I mean if they put that in a doc along with Ian Freeman beating Frank Mir after Ian's father died and Josh Barnett being the first fighter in the modern era to fail multiple drug tests, now we're cooking with fish grease. I don't think too many MMA subjects so far lend themselves for an entire documentary feature, but if you did the SportsCentury thing like I just kinda broached with the year 2002, that works much, much better.

59 minutes ago, supremebve said:

We joke about Joanna, and Henry Cejudo's cringe worthy status, but Tito and Ken Shamrock are the undisputed kings of cringe.  

Joanna in terms of charisma has been fantastic since day one. Joanna Champion got over really fucking fast. Now, a few of her weigh in antics in the past I can do without. But that's more of the mental warfare side of fighting so that's whatever. 

I don't pay that much attention to Cejudo, but the onus has been on Cejudo to prove he will be a more favorable champion for UFC than Demetrious. I don't begrudge him at all, and it looks like he is genuinely having fun from what I have seen. 

I actually don't fault Tito and Ken for what they were doing in 2002. Even though Dana didn't like pro wrestling (Joe Silva was the opposite FWIW), UFC was pretty pro-wrestling adjacent when it re-emerged. You had The Best Damn Sports Show which made UFC look like real pro wrestling. Also, the other guy had been a pro wrestler for a decade by then. Now, anything after 2006/2007, that is on Tito because his schtick specifically was no longer relevant by then. He got a pretty good pop everytime he came out to Mosh with the Mexican and U.S. flag, but that's as far as it went especially when he went through that rough patch from 2008 to 2012. I find it ironic that his last fight prior to this one coming up was promoted by Oscar De La Hoya, who once he became the frontman for his own promotion had his own mushmouth moments. When Tito is doing his pro wrestling thing, it's a tired act but you know it's going to be short for the most part. Guys trying to build up fights is always going to be hit or miss anyway. Go back and watch him do that press conference for Cris Cyborg when they talking about how she couldn't make 135. It's painful beyond belief. God bless him because he fancies himself as this elegant, refined speaker when he isn't. 

 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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17 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Joanna in terms of charisma has been fantastic since day one. Joanna Champion got over really fucking fast. Now, a few of her weigh in antics in the past I can do without. But that's more of the mental warfare side of fighting so that's whatever. 

I don't pay that much attention to Cejudo, but the onus has been on Cejudo to prove he will be a more favorable champion for UFC than Demetrious. I don't begrudge him at all, and it looks like he is genuinely having fun from what I have seen. 

I actually don't fault Tito and Ken for what they were doing in 2002. Even though Dana didn't like pro wrestling (Joe Silva was the opposite FWIW), UFC was pretty pro-wrestling adjacent when it re-emerged. You had The Best Damn Sports Show which made UFC look like real pro wrestling. Also, the other guy had been a pro wrestler for a decade by then. Now, anything after 2006/2007, that is on Tito because his schtick specifically was no longer relevant by then. He got a pretty good pop everytime he came out to Mosh with the Mexican and U.S. flag, but that's as far as it went especially when he went through that rough patch from 2008 to 2012. I find it ironic that his last fight prior to this one coming up was promoted by Oscar De La Hoya, who once he became the frontman for his own promotion had his own mushmouth moments. When Tito is doing his pro wrestling thing, it's a tired act but you know it's going to be short for the most part. Guys trying to build up fights is always going to be hit or miss anyway. Go back and watch him do that press conference for Cris Cyborg when they talking about how she couldn't make 135. It's painful beyond belief. God bless him because he fancies himself as this elegant, refined speaker when he isn't. 

 

The funny thing about Joanna, Cejudo, Tito, and Ken being super cringeworthy is that for the most part it has worked.  If any of these people were pro wrestlers who we actually expect to be able to talk fans into the building, they'd be laughingstocks, but in MMA where half the people have no charisma whatsoever, they get over.  Ken Shamrock and Tito Ortiz really didn't like each other, which helped, but the fact that they were willing to taunt, insult, and talk shit about each other really made them stand out.  The first MMA event I went to was Ortiz vs. Shamrock 2, and it was because how invested I was in that rivalry.  I knew exactly how that fight was going to go, and didn't care.  I just wanted to be in the building.  Joanna's posing and mugging for the camera on Saturday during her introduction legit made me laugh.  She has the personality of a grapefruit, but she's trying...which is more than I can say about most MMA fighters.

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48 minutes ago, supremebve said:

The funny thing about Joanna, Cejudo, Tito, and Ken being super cringeworthy is that for the most part it has worked.  If any of these people were pro wrestlers who we actually expect to be able to talk fans into the building, they'd be laughingstocks, but in MMA where half the people have no charisma whatsoever, they get over.  

I don't think it's that at all. When Tito became big, it was in the early 2000s. What was happening then? People leaving pro wrestling in droves especially if WWF wasn't their thing or WWF now being the only game in town drove them away. Despite the nu-metal, broey vibe UFC had then (and began to develop year over year), they presented Tito as a superstar. He was winning fights, and they were showing him slamming Evan Tanner into oblivion. They went big on Tito and you can't say there was just a bunch of no charisma guys because BJ Penn had star written all over him. I mean someone could say size had a part in that, but Penn didn't have that aura that Tito had. They could show him braining Caol Uno all day and running out of the cage, but it just wasn't the same. If Penn was THAT guy, they would have kept him and the UFC lightweight division. Tito was perfect for that era of MMA (same with Ronda later on) and had foils (which is something every fighter needs to make their career worth something) in Randy, Ken, and Chuck. If WWE was in different place then, the first guy they would poach is Tito Ortiz and have him go to promo class with Jim Cornette in OVW. So that's where we part on that.

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Joanna's posing and mugging for the camera on Saturday during her introduction legit made me laugh.  She has the personality of a grapefruit, but she's trying...which is more than I can say about most MMA fighters.

As for Joanna, she clearly has something you can't teach. The first time she cut a promo (IIRC after the Juliana Lima fight), I knew the UFC was going to put rocket boosters on her. The cocky, foreign tweener stuff works because that's genuinely her. Everytime she has a post-fight interview, the fans respond in kind which is rare because half the time everyone is trying to gather their thoughts since they just got finished fighting another grown person inside a cage or were just recently concussed. Thus, the fans either don't really do anything or only make noise for someone going for a cheap pop (9/10 winning fighters even in enemy territory compliment the city, state, and/or country the event is in). It also helps that she has the perfect style to compliment her personality. When she was carving up Jessica Penne and then beating the brakes off Carla Esparza before that, I was thinking the UFC should trademark the Polish Hammer for her because she was only one worthy of that name who wasn't Ivan Putski. Just like Tito, when you have that aura around you and have just the right amount charisma and dominance, you are star and best case scenario, a mega star. I think what Joanna is/was lacking because she has everything else in spades is the right foil. People thought Valentina was it, but I think that's water and oil in terms of buildup especially dealing with two people whose first language isn't English. Rose would have been it, but she is really anti-social. Hence, why I felt Joanna had to hype herself up. I mean everytime they had a presser, Rose would say she isn't about talking trash and doesn't believe in it. If you put Joanna in NXT or AEW with enough training, she would hold her own. It's not like everyone in wrestling is Arn Anderson on the stick to begin with.

 

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I don't think it's that at all. When Tito became big, it was in the early 2000s. What was happening then? People leaving pro wrestling in droves especially if WWF wasn't their thing or WWF now being the only game in town drove them away. Despite the nu-metal, broey vibe UFC had then (and began to develop year over year), they presented Tito as a superstar. He was winning fights, and they were showing him slamming Evan Tanner into oblivion. They went big on Tito and you can't say there was just a bunch of no charisma guys because BJ Penn had star written all over him. I mean someone could say size had a part in that, but Penn didn't have that aura that Tito had. They could show him braining Caol Uno all day and running out of the cage, but it just wasn't the same. If Penn was THAT guy, they would have kept him and the UFC lightweight division. Tito was perfect for that era of MMA (same with Ronda later on),and had foils (which is something every fighter needs to make their career worth something) in Randy, Ken, and Chuck. If WWE was in different place then, the first guy they would poach is Tito Ortiz and have him go to promo class with Jim Cornette in OVW. So that's where we part on that.

When did you get into MMA really seriously?  UFC 40 was kind of the point where I started actually paying attention, but UFC 45 or so is when I decided I'm going to watch all of these.  By that time, Randy Couture felt like he was unbeatable, and Tito was just the loudmouth dude beating up Ken Shamrock.  Tito was the star, but I would have taken Randy, Chuck, and probably Vitor (I still think Vitor won their fight) over him as the "real" contenders.  Tito's antics were hilarious to me and my friends mostly unintentionally.  Him and Ken Shamrock's feud was two grown men trading goofy ass cracks about each other like they were in the 3rd grade, and we loved it.  Ken telling Tito he was going to beat him into living death is one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard.  Tito crying like a little kid after Randy literally spanked him was everything I had to see to make me not take him serious as a championship contender.  He was just too one dimensional and he wasn't even the best at that dimension.  I laughed at Matt Hughes tucking his t-shirt into sweatpants, but I took that dude serious as a fighter.  Randy's ears freaked me out at first, but that dude kicked ass.  Tito was the dude who was funny for all the wrong reasons.  BJ Penn never struck me as charismatic, but he chocked out Matt Hughes who was a certified bad ass in my book. 

MMA doesn't have a ton of dynamic personalities, that's why people like Conor and Ronda look like superstars when their acts are paper thin.  If you take the thinly veiled racism from Conor, what exactly does he have going for him personality wise?  Ronda is one of the most unlikable people on earth, and her feud with Becky Lynch kind of made her look silly.  Brock didn't get over on personality, he got over because he was a massive dude who mauled people.  GSP is a personality zero, but he was a dominant champion who beat a bunch of super credible challengers.  Jorge Masvidal is pretty good, the Diaz brothers have a certain IDGAF charisma, but most of these people aren't getting anywhere on the basis of personality.

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Loved the Joanna/Gadelha rivalry, made for a super entertaining TUF and great fights. Always thought Joanna's charisma and aura stood out almost immediately from the first Gadellha fight and just kept shining from then on, which led to her quickly becoming one of my top favorites.

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1 hour ago, supremebve said:

When did you get into MMA really seriously? 

I would say I was a casual fan from about 96 to early 99ish, then got into PRIDE around 01, got back into the UFC around late 2001 until about 2004. Then, it was mostly PRIDE and other stuff. I watched the early seasons of TUF off on, but I didn't really pay attention again to late 2005 to UFC. I would watch the Fight Nights but I didn't really give a shit about stuff like Arlovski vs. Buentello and Rich Franklin icing Nate Quarry. I saw highlights and that was enough. Also, we finally got a Blockbuster in our little ass town around 02/03. So anything I missed in the meantime, I could catch up on. Plus, the internet community was pretty strong as far videos of the major fights whether it was UFC, PRIDE, or w/e. I would say from TUF 3 Finale on, I have watched every UFC live save for UFC 69 (was out of town on a trip) and a handful of the ones in Asia that I overslept on. There was also a couple this year on ESPN+ I had to go back and watch.

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UFC 40 was kind of the point where I started actually paying attention, but UFC 45 or so is when I decided I'm going to watch all of these.  By that time, Randy Couture felt like he was unbeatable, and Tito was just the loudmouth dude beating up Ken Shamrock.  Tito was the star, but I would have taken Randy, Chuck, and probably Vitor (I still think Vitor won their fight) over him as the "real" contenders.  Tito's antics were hilarious to me and my friends mostly unintentionally.  Him and Ken Shamrock's feud was two grown men trading goofy ass cracks about each other like they were in the 3rd grade, and we loved it.  Ken telling Tito he was going to beat him into living death is one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard.  Tito crying like a little kid after Randy literally spanked him was everything I had to see to make me not take him serious as a championship contender.  He was just too one dimensional and he wasn't even the best at that dimension.  I laughed at Matt Hughes tucking his t-shirt into sweatpants, but I took that dude serious as a fighter.  Randy's ears freaked me out at first, but that dude kicked ass.  Tito was the dude who was funny for all the wrong reasons.  BJ Penn never struck me as charismatic, but he chocked out Matt Hughes who was a certified bad ass in my book.

I think ALOT of people came in at UFC 40. I vividly remember every wrestling site (especially the ones w/ the clickbait links like "YOU WON'T BELIEVE THESE OUTRAGEOUS CANDID SHOTS OF TRISH STRATUS" & "AN EX WCW SUPERSTAR WAS SEEN BACKSTAGE AT TONIGHT'S RAW") doing PBP for Ortiz/Shamrock I like it was goddamn Wrestlemania. 

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MMA doesn't have a ton of dynamic personalities, that's why people like Conor and Ronda look like superstars when their acts are paper thin.  If you take the thinly veiled racism from Conor, what exactly does he have going for him personality wise?  Ronda is one of the most unlikable people on earth, and her feud with Becky Lynch kind of made her look silly.  Brock didn't get over on personality, he got over because he was a massive dude who mauled people.  GSP is a personality zero, but he was a dominant champion who beat a bunch of super credible challengers.  Jorge Masvidal is pretty good, the Diaz brothers have a certain IDGAF charisma, but most of these people aren't getting anywhere on the basis of personality.

In boxing and MMA, personality is utilized much differently. If you're cutting great promos, but you cannot fight (see: Brooks, Phil) or you can be easily exposed, it ultimately doesn't matter how good you are with public speaking. When I fully got invested back into UFC, I remember Brandon Vera was guy that I legit thought could be their next superstar. That was in 2006. Once he took that long hiatus and then lost to Tim Sylvia, that took a lot of the wind of his sails and he really never recovered from that. I don't think pro wrestling just has a bunch of great personalities. If they did, wrestling wouldn't be in the spot it is in now. It's about fitting into a certain dynamic, and with MMA it's much tougher because the UFC has engineered a ready made formula. I love what they did at the last UFC PPV in Melbourne because that looked like a real, big time event, but they rarely do that. I think Brock did get over on his personality because he is one of the few people who legit carries himself as a star no matter if the sport is real or fake. As I indicated above, Punk could not do that because he knew this is a different deal than having a WWE script. If Becky Lynch, Charlotte Flair, or Alexa Bliss had to go fight someone for real in the UFC, they're not going to be cutting promos at all. It doesn't mean they don't have personality or charisma, but the dynamic has changed dramatically. It's no longer pre determined. There are no bullet points to memorize. That same vigor and mannerisms you carry going down a ramp in wrestling looks out of place. Jake Hager/Jack Swagger tries to do that in Bellator fights, and it doesn't work because that doesn't fit the framework of fighting another person for real.

With GSP, I feel that he was one of those guys who could serve as some sort of ambassador for the sport. You usually have those guys more in boxing with Alexis Arguello and Manny Pacquiao. Once he got rid of Shari Spencer, he showed a little bit more personality but that was towards the end of him fighting regularly.

Conor is/was a great talker, but him believing in his own shit ruined him for me. Not knowing when to reel it back in hurt him more than anything else. Hell, what Conor has to say is 150% more cringe than any of the guys or girls that have been brought up and he was the biggest star in combat sports (boxing, kickboxing, MMA, and wrestling) for several months. He is a great talker that doesn't know what to say and when to say it. When he was coming up, there was real legit reason why everyone went to the UFC to tell them they need to sign this guy. The "we're here to take over" speech he did was great. Once we get to when he "retired" on Twitter and he got like a gajillion retweets, it became clear he is not in the same reality we are a part of. If he had stayed on a path (minus some of the racism and xenophobia) where he knew what line to straddled and cross, he could have had a bigger run than Tyson post prison. But he didn't.

Ronda had some of the same troubles with reeling in, but her main problem was she legit believed that her (or her mom's) philosophy was the only one. She wasn't a great talker, but she had a presence where she was marketable. However, once people realize that they are marketable, they can either go down two paths: they can flaunt it but still have enough self awareness to realize what it is that pays the bills (ex. Floyd Mayweather) or literally have no self awareness outside being self aware that they are indeed marketable. Unfortunately, Ronda fits into the second category. Once we had stuff like "Do Nothing Bitches", that was our point of no return for Ronda Rousey. Now, you have to win EVERY fight in negative nine seconds. If you face ANY type of adversity, people won't be impressed with what you do. So when she fought Holly, that was a recipe for disaster.

 

 

Edited by Elsalvajeloco
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21 hours ago, supremebve said:

When did you get into MMA really seriously?  UFC 40 was kind of the point where I started actually paying attention, but UFC 45 or so is when I decided I'm going to watch all of these. 

 

19 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I would say I was a casual fan from about 96 to early 99ish, then got into PRIDE around 01, got back into the UFC around late 2001 until about 2004. 

I think ALOT of people came in at UFC 40. I vividly remember every wrestling site (especially the ones w/ the clickbait links like "YOU WON'T BELIEVE THESE OUTRAGEOUS CANDID SHOTS OF TRISH STRATUS" & "AN EX WCW SUPERSTAR WAS SEEN BACKSTAGE AT TONIGHT'S RAW") doing PBP for Ortiz/Shamrock I like it was goddamn Wrestlemania. 

along this topic, i had watched like 12 of the first 15 UFCs via rental VHS tapes and loved it. this must've happened around '99-2000 during UFC's "dark ages" without PPV or whatever. 

The first one i watched live on tv was UFC 40 and it was awesome. i was hooked from that day. Ken vs Tito was such a huge attraction (i was never a Tito fan, so i rooted hard for Ken.....it didn't go well for me that night). i went on to discover Pride and watch all of their events, caught every UFC event for the next decade +, jump for all of the Strikeforce/EliteXC cards, and whatever random old events i could track down on tape (Battlecade was my favorite!). I was all in on TUF1- Chris Leben became one of my all time favorite fighters because of this show.

it's only been in the last 1-2 years that i've stopped making UFC my Saturday priority, mostly due to too many cards, not enough star power, and general burnout. Now i only really watch the UFC PPVs and main ESPN cards live, plus RIZIN on a week or two delay.

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Edited by supremebve

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I'm assuming this makes Zabit vs. Calvin Kattar the main event and turns it into a five rounder.

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1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 

Paige VanZant isn't going to be able to run from this ass whooping for long, but it's probably smart to run from it as long as possible.  Paige is the perfect opponent for an up and coming prospect who needs a name win.  She can decline the fight all she wants, but if she wants to continue fighting, she's going to eventually have to fight Barber.  

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8 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Paige VanZant isn't going to be able to run from this ass whooping for long, but it's probably smart to run from it as long as possible.  Paige is the perfect opponent for an up and coming prospect who needs a name win.  She can decline the fight all she wants, but if she wants to continue fighting, she's going to eventually have to fight Barber.  

It's not doing wonders for her marketability.

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2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

It's not doing wonders for her marketability.

It sucks, because it's a no-win proposition.  She can either put over the fighter who has the talent that the UFC was hoping she had, or be labelled a coward.  It's not going to be long before the UFC is going to start pressuring her to take the fight, because it's the fight that can turn Barber from prospect to star.  Paige spent all of this time making herself famous and she needs to understand that her fame comes with a cost.  If I'm Barber, I'm going to put her name in the street like Omar did Marlo.  The entire world would know that she's ducking me, until she came running for this ass whooping.  For better or worse, Paige lined this shit up for a fighter like Barber.  It's a terrible look to try to deny Barber this fight...except Barber is going to beat her in the most spectacular, dominant fashion possible.  

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Those are two great fights. We'll see how slow Faber looks against Yan but Moraes/Aldo is fan-fucking-tastic matchmaking. 

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8 minutes ago, Oyaji said:

Those are two great fights. We'll see how slow Faber looks against Yan but Moraes/Aldo is fan-fucking-tastic matchmaking. 

As much as I defended Faber going into the Simon fight, it's hard for me to see him having anything for Petr Yan. Yan is just way too dynamic IMO.

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