2019 Non-Event General MMA Talk Thread

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

According to Dave Meltzer on the latest WOR, Faber's opponent is Ricky Simon and it will be on the 7/13 card in Sacramento.

Uriah was well on his way to washed when he retired...I think he's going to get his ass kicked.  Ricky Simon is looking at that pillow fisted old dude like a lion looks at an antelope.   

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

Uriah was well on his way to washed when he retired...I think he's going to get his ass kicked.  Ricky Simon is looking at that pillow fisted old dude like a lion looks at an antelope.   

Not often athlete/athletes go out on a high.

[supremebve]

15 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Not often athlete/athletes go out on a high.

In this sport it's even worse.  BJ Penn was once one of the best pound-for-pound fighters on earth...he hasn't won a fight in damn near a decade.  If you are a 40-year-old fighter with a name, the only reason that the UFC is interested is to put them on the summer jam screen for a young and up and coming fighter.  

[The Natural]

26 minutes ago, supremebve said:

In this sport it's even worse.  BJ Penn was once one of the best pound-for-pound fighters on earth...he hasn't won a fight in damn near a decade.  If you are a 40-year-old fighter with a name, the only reason that the UFC is interested is to put them on the summer jam screen for a young and up and coming fighter.  

Yep, it's worse in this sport. The decline of BJ Penn and Chuck Liddell, brutal.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 hours ago, supremebve said:

In this sport it's even worse.  BJ Penn was once one of the best pound-for-pound fighters on earth...he hasn't won a fight in damn near a decade.  If you are a 40-year-old fighter with a name, the only reason that the UFC is interested is to put them on the summer jam screen for a young and up and coming fighter.  

In Faber's case, it's basically a ploy to sell tickets. He is a draw in Sacramento.

The problem for Faber is bantamweight didn't exactly get worse in his answer. The UFC just signed Jack Shore. Forget Ricky Simon for a minute. Can Faber at this point beat guys like Nathaniel Wood and Jack Shore who were Cage Warrior champs in the recent past? Hell, at this point, could he beat an ex BAMMA champ in Tom Duquesnoy who just retired his damn self at 25 going on age 26? I mean Duquesnoy arguably lost to Terrion Ware who was always a tough out, but Duquesnoy was still offensively gifted when he tried. I think Faber believes he go on a run similar to the one he went on after his first loss to Renan Barao where he was capable of beating a young, scary fighter (at least the time) like Michael MacDonald. Maybe there is some validity to that until he reaches a certain point in talent level. However, the prospects at 135 now are more than just monstrous punchers like a Michael MacDonald or Francisco Rivera or pure grapplers like Rani Yahya or Bryan Caraway. Look at the fight he had with Jimmie Rivera. The reason why Faber never lost non-title matches is he didn't have to run into guys like that. Now that's no longer just an exception. There is a very real possibility Faber could get absolutely  folded up just like there is a possibility he can still be competitive. Hopefully, he took that into consideration.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

12 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

In Faber's case, it's basically a ploy to sell tickets. He is a draw in Sacramento.

The problem for Faber is bantamweight didn't exactly get worse in his answer. The UFC just signed Jack Shore. Forget Ricky Simon for a minute. Can Faber at this point beat guys like Nathaniel Wood and Jack Shore who were Cage Warrior champs in the recent past? Hell, at this point, could he beat an ex BAMMA champ in Tom Duquesnoy who just retired his damn self at 25 going on age 26? I mean Duquesnoy arguably lost to Terrion Ware who was always a tough out, but Duquesnoy was still offensively gifted when he tried. I think Faber believes he go on a run similar to the one he went on after his first loss to Renan Barao where he was capable of beating a young, scary fighter (at least the time) like Michael MacDonald. Maybe there is some validity to that until he reaches a certain point in talent level. However, the prospects at 135 now are more than just monstrous punchers like a Michael MacDonald or Francisco Rivera or pure grapplers like Rani Yahya or Bryan Caraway. Look at the fight he had with Jimmie Rivera. The reason why Faber never lost non-title matches is he didn't have to run into guys like that. Now that's no longer just an exception. There is a very real possibility Faber could get absolutely  folded up just like there is a possibility he can still be competitive. Hopefully, he took that into consideration.

The problem Faber is going to have is that his only real advantage as a fighter is that he's a really good athlete with great cardio.  He's 40, and the competition at 135 and/or 145 has exceeded his athleticsm.  His wrestling was good, but not exceptional.  There are very few fighters at this level who can't wrestle at this point, he's not going to be able to outwrestle most guys in either division.  His biggest disadvantage is the fact that he doesn't have enough stopping power to keep these younger, hungrier, looking to make a name off of his scalp ass fighters, away long enough to not get his ass beat.

Do you remember what happened when he ran into Jose Aldo?  Aldo looked like a different breed of fighter, because of how much more athletic he was than Faber, who was at his athletic peak.  That was almost 10 years ago.  When was the last time Aldo just out athleted someone?  Was it the first Chad Mendes fight?   Aldo has spent the last 5 years or so just standing in the middle of the cage using his head movement and takedown defense to counterpunch his way to victory.  He isn't pulling off a bunch of flying knees and shit like he was in his prime.  The difference is getting punched by Jose Aldo HURTS, he can just stand there and beat most fighters.  Faber can't do that shit...he couldn't do that shit when he was good.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

The problem Faber is going to have is that his only real advantage as a fighter is that he's a really good athlete with great cardio.  He's 40, and the competition at 135 and/or 145 has exceeded his athleticsm.  His wrestling was good, but not exceptional.  There are very few fighters at this level who can't wrestle at this point, he's not going to be able to outwrestle most guys in either division.  His biggest disadvantage is the fact that he doesn't have enough stopping power to keep these younger, hungrier, looking to make a name off of his scalp ass fighters, away long enough to not get his ass beat.

Do you remember what happened when he ran into Jose Aldo?  Aldo looked like a different breed of fighter, because of how much more athletic he was than Faber, who was at his athletic peak.  That was almost 10 years ago.  When was the last time Aldo just out athleted someone?  Was it the first Chad Mendes fight?   Aldo has spent the last 5 years or so just standing in the middle of the cage using his head movement and takedown defense to counterpunch his way to victory.  He isn't pulling off a bunch of flying knees and shit like he was in his prime.  The difference is getting punched by Jose Aldo HURTS, he can just stand there and beat most fighters.  Faber can't do that shit...he couldn't do that shit when he was good.

I think the reason why Aldo fought the way he did post WEC is just career preservation. At some point, quick twitch Aldo was going to run into the right (or wrong depending on your viewpoint) counter and get mopped. It just turned out to be a Conor McGregor left hand. He had at least three or four more years of being able of being super explosive when he wanted and needed to be. I remember several years ago now Emanuel Steward talking about what usually is the elephant in the room for most fighters which is changing your style as you get older to basically preserve yourself physically. I am not sure of the guy he was praising at the time (IIRC maybe Pacquiao or Bernard Hopkins) for NOT changing it up and still being entertaining to watch, but I believe fighters are more self aware about that. I watched part one of What's My Name (the Ali documentary) and the difference between 1960 Rome Olympic games all the way to boxing license revocation Ali and the Ali who fought Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, and Frazier in the first fight (where part I ends FWIW) is fucking startling. However, twenty nine year old Ali is discussing what he could do to beat Frazier if they ever fought again like he is capable of being as lightning quick and otherworldly fast as nineteen year old Ali coming off a gold medal.  If you were living in March 1971 and saw the vicious left hooks Ali was eating in that first Frazier fight, you would say there is no way this dude fights ten more years let alone REGAINS the heavyweight title twice when that was virtually unheard of then. However, Muhammad Ali found a way and it wasn't just because he was way better than everyone else.

I think finishing ability is obviously important, but Aldo was always a more dynamic fighter than Faber. If Aldo couldn't kick your goddamn leg off or didn't have abnormal level takedown defense, he wouldn't be Jose Aldo. He would be another Luiz Azeredo or some other lower level Chute Boxe fighter from their heyday. Faber has relied so much on being a super fast, slick submission grappler who could blend it in with his wrestling or hurting you with a punch and then grabbing a guillotine that he didn't need to be a legit puncher. However, like I said, the talent level now is high enough where you can't get away with that. A guy like Jose Aldo could come in ANY era and win a world title. He may not be as dominant every time, but he at the very least will be a perennial contender. A guy like Urijah Faber is now a relic because the game has evolved to the point where it's no longer simplistic game planning and point A to B that wins big fights. Even someone like Kamaru Usman who is a lights out wrestler can do more than just wrestle and maintain top control. Remember two of Faber's proteges in Dillashaw and Cody Garbrandt who fight much differently won UFC titles and not him.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think the reason why Aldo fought the way he did post WEC is just career preservation. At some point, quick twitch Aldo was going to run into the right (or wrong depending on your viewpoint) counter and get mopped. It just turned out to be a Conor McGregor left hand. He had at least three or four more years of being able of being super explosive when he wanted and needed to be. I remember several years ago now Emanuel Steward talking about what usually is the elephant in the room for most fighters which is changing your style as you get older to basically preserve yourself physically. I am not sure of the guy he was praising at the time (IIRC maybe Pacquiao or Bernard Hopkins) for NOT changing it up and still being entertaining to watch, but I believe fighters are more self aware about that. I watched part one of What's My Name (the Ali documentary) and the difference between 1960 Rome Olympic games all the way to boxing license revocation Ali and the Ali who fought Jerry Quarry, Oscar Bonavena, and Frazier in the first fight (where part I ends FWIW) is fucking startling. However, twenty nine year old Ali is discussing what he could do to beat Frazier if they ever fought again like he is capable of being as lightning quick and otherworldly fast as nineteen year old Ali coming off a gold medal.  If you were living in March 1971 and saw the vicious left hooks Ali was eating in that first Frazier fight, you would say there is no way this dude fights ten more years let alone REGAINS the heavyweight title twice when that was virtually unheard of then. However, Muhammad Ali found a way and it wasn't just because he was way better than everyone else.

I think finishing ability is obviously important, but Aldo was always a more dynamic fighter than Faber. If Aldo couldn't kick your goddamn leg off or didn't have abnormal level takedown defense, he wouldn't be Jose Aldo. He would be another Luiz Azeredo or some other lower level Chute Boxe fighter from their heyday. Faber has relied so much on being a super fast, slick submission grappler who could blend it in with his wrestling or hurting you with a punch and then grabbing a guillotine that he didn't need to be a legit puncher. However, like I said, the talent level now is high enough where you can't get away with that. A guy like Jose Aldo could come in ANY era and win a world title. He may not be as dominant every time, but he at the very least will be a perennial contender. A guy like Urijah Faber is now a relic because the game has evolved to the point where it's no longer simplistic game planning and point A to B that wins big fights. Even someone like Kamaru Usman who is a lights out wrestler can do more than just wrestle and maintain top control. Remember two of Faber's proteges in Dillashaw and Cody Garbrandt who fight much differently won UFC titles and not him.

Aldo is top 5-10 best fighters of all time and the most sophisticated defensive fighter in the history of the sport.  His skill level is top notch, but his athleticism is what made him an all-time great.  With that said, if Aldo was an average athlete, his skill level is high enough that he could still be a contender.  Faber's skill level isn't nearly that high.  What does he do at an elite level at this point, and how does any of that work 10 years past his athletic prime?  At his peak he was a less skilled, less athletic, Frankie Edgar.  He's coming back into a deep division full of young, athletic fighters who came into the UFC at his skill level.  Over the last couple of weeks, I've rewatched pretty much every UFC PPV from the beginning of 2018, and it's pretty apparent that the skill level between 135 and 170 is exponentially better than the higher weight classes.  Everybody in the UFC in those divisions is a rock solid, well-rounded, fighter.  There is a minimum of 25 bantamweights better than him, and that's generously low.  He may very well be the worst bantamweight on the roster upon his return.  When he retired he was having close, nip tuck fights with Frankie Saenz...who ain't exactly a world beater at bantamweight.

[Elsalvajeloco]

18 hours ago, supremebve said:

Aldo is top 5-10 best fighters of all time and the most sophisticated defensive fighter in the history of the sport.  His skill level is top notch, but his athleticism is what made him an all-time great.  With that said, if Aldo was an average athlete, his skill level is high enough that he could still be a contender.  

The thing with fighting, ESPECIALLY in the lower weight classes, is you kinda need to be athletic. If you blew up Jose Aldo and made him a light heavyweight as just an average athlete, he could be Glover Teixeira. The thing is if you're fighting people like Max Holloway, the only way to beat him is to be a better athlete or be bigger and hit harder. An average athlete at featherweight is Nik Lentz and Darren Elkins. They're solid fighters but still not contenders. That's why I said if he ain't an athlete at that level, he is basically Luiz Azeredo. Prior to Jose Aldo in WEC, the prototype Nova Uniao guy was Shaolin Ribeiro and then it became BJJ guys who sorta know how to strike but still win primarily on the ground like Ronnys Torres and Leonardo Santos (who still somehow is in the UFC). Jose Aldo was an outlier and changed the entire dynamic of that team. It went from from BJJ champs who barely qualified as athletes to Jose Aldo and Renan Barao smoking dudes in Zuffa and Marlon Sandro and Dudu Dantas going on streaks around the world. Jussier Formiga is more old Nova Uniao and he still is well rounded enough to have some longevity. So knowing that, Jose Aldo as just an athlete and not THE athlete is Hacran Dias who was suppose to be his successor.

18 hours ago, supremebve said:

At his peak he was a less skilled, less athletic, Frankie Edgar.

I wouldn't say that because first off, Edgar relies so much on his chin and Faber didn't have to start doing that until he ran into Mike Brown and Jose Aldo. KOTC and Gladiator Challenge Urijah Faber looked like someone who was going to be around as the first guy in the modern era to be a star under 155 pounds. Hence, why the dream match was Faber vs. KID. He was a very good grappler and solid enough as a striker to beat damn near everyone in an era where there were so many specialists. Then slowly but surely, that tide changed. As for Edgar, no one knew Edgar was going to be THAT good coming from Ring of Combat. No one. He was super gritty and once he linked up with Mark Henry and Ricardo Almeida, he turned that corner. Without that grittiness and chin, I don't think he reaches half the potential because he gets stopped by Gray Maynard and changes the trajectory of the lightweight division. Plus, he was always undersized. I think Urijah Faber is really the first Urijah Faber because all the guys pre Zuffa owned WEC faded away and Faber even with Aldo dominating and Chad Mendes sliding into Faber's role at 145 was still good enough to win. Where the hell is Pequeno Nogueira? Where is Lion Takeshi? Where is Antonio Carvalho? Jeff Curran? Wagnney Fabiano? All the dudes that were the shit then wouldn't even be top 20 now. Faber at his best could still be that. It would be harder to win, but he could still go to 135 if need be.

 

18 hours ago, supremebve said:

 There is a minimum of 25 bantamweights better than him, and that's generously low. 

I would say about 11-12 bantamweights easy. Eddie Wineland is top 20-25 bantamweight. Eddie Wineland like 450 years old in bantamweight years his damn self and Faber beat him already. When you start getting to the inconsistent dudes like Thominhas who fall apart in fights, it gets interesting because those dudes are flawed enough to make Faber look more than competent. Brian Kelleher is the highest level fringe UFC fighter of all time, but at the same time, he has found a way to look like someone who clearly doesn't belong in the UFC. Raoni Barcelos would beat Faber at this point because his wrestling and top game is great. Luke Sanders is bootleg Urijah Faber. Faber could win that. Soukhamthath is solid, but at the same time, he lost a fight to one legged man LAST YEAR. Firas Zahabi's brother Aiemann is ok at best, but he is far from UFC level. Once you get past the top 15 (since Horiguchi and Caldwell are outside the UFC), it gets murky real goddamn quick. If you look at the Tapology rankings, it is the MMA equivalent "X is still in the league?!" game from the NBA and NFL. Bantamweight is way way better, but it ain't featherweight or lightweight just yet.  

Edited May 29, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6

16 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I would say about 11-12 bantamweights easy. Eddie Wineland is top 20-25 bantamweight. Eddie Wineland like 450 years old in bantamweight years his damn self and Faber beat him already. When you start getting to the inconsistent dudes like Thominhas who fall apart in fights, it gets interesting because those dudes are flawed enough to make Faber look more than competent. Brian Kelleher is the highest level fringe UFC fighter of all time, but at the same time, he has found a way to look like someone who clearly doesn't belong in the UFC. Raoni Barcelos would beat Faber at this point because his wrestling and top game is great. Luke Sanders is bootleg Urijah Faber. Faber could win that. Soukhamthath is solid, but at the same time, he lost a fight to one legged man LAST YEAR. Firas Zahabi's brother Aiemann is ok at best, but he is far from UFC level. Once you get past the top 15 (since Horiguchi and Caldwell are outside the UFC), it gets murky real goddamn quick. If you look at the Tapology rankings, it is the MMA equivalent "X is still in the league?!" game from the NBA and NFL. Bantamweight is way way better, but it ain't featherweight or lightweight just yet.  

1. Marlon Moraes
2. Henry Cejudo
3. Pedro Munhoz
4. Cody Garbrandt
5. Raphael Assuncao
6. Aljamain Sterling
7. Jimmie Rivera
8. Peter Yan
9. Cory Sandhagen
10. John Lineker
11. Cody Stamann
12. John Dodson
13. Rob Font
14. Thomas Almeida
15. Ricky Simon
16. Alejandro Perez
17. Bryan Caraway
18. Nathaniel Wood
19. Brett Johns
20. Douglas Andrade
21. Marlon Vera
22. Montel Jackson
23. Sergio Pettis
24. Said Nurmagomedov
25. Sean O'Malley
26. Manny Bermudez
27. Raoni Barcelos
28. Ricardo Ramos

If the fight was signed for tomorrow, I'd be surprised if 40-year-old Urijah Faber gets a win over any of the above fighters.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, supremebve said:

1. Marlon Moraes
2. Henry Cejudo
3. Pedro Munhoz
4. Cody Garbrandt
5. Raphael Assuncao
6. Aljamain Sterling
7. Jimmie Rivera
8. Peter Yan
9. Cory Sandhagen
10. John Lineker
11. Cody Stamann
12. John Dodson
13. Rob Font
14. Thomas Almeida
15. Ricky Simon
16. Alejandro Perez
17. Bryan Caraway
18. Nathaniel Wood
19. Brett Johns
20. Douglas Andrade
21. Marlon Vera
22. Montel Jackson
23. Sergio Pettis
24. Said Nurmagomedov
25. Sean O'Malley
26. Manny Bermudez
27. Raoni Barcelos
28. Ricardo Ramos

If the fight was signed for tomorrow, I'd be surprised if 40-year-old Urijah Faber gets a win over any of the above fighters.  

He isn't fighting Garbrandt. I would favor him over Perez, Johns, and Ricardo Ramos easily. If you remember, Ramos was losing to Aiemann Zahabi BEFORE he KO'd him and Aiemann ain't UFC level. Sergio Pettis is in this weird place because at flyweight, he can be really good. At 135, I don't really seeing him doing anything significant. There is a reason why he got booked against Ramos because that's one of the few BWs Sergio could beat. Caraway just got released. Silva de Andrade impressed me in the Briones fight and Marlon Vera is a pretty good win, but he is still a level below Faber was before he retired the first time. Bermudez's competition has a combined UFC record of 3-8-1. He ain't fought no one at UFC level yet. He is a solid prospect though. Said Nurmagomedov would be a tossup at best for Said because so far he has only fought Justin Scoggins who is far from consistent and Ricardo Ramos who I already went over. Montel Jackson is another one who it would be a tossup. I can forgive the loss to Ricky Simon. Like I said, Kelleher is the best fringe UFC fighter you're going to find. He doesn't belong in the UFC, but he is good enough to upset lower mid tier fighters who aren't on their A game. He can also beat someone like Barao who hasn't been himself in awhile. With that said, Montel Jackson beating him isn't all that impressive. Kelleher is going to be an underdog going into virtually every fight. Soukhamthath is another inconsistent guy now that he isn't scoring highlight reel KOs on AXS TV anymore. Plus, the whole O'Malley fight. So Montel beating him doesn't tell us much about him. Whereas Barcelos has impressed since leaving the AXS TV level, Soukhamthath has went in the opposite direction. Stamann...I dunno about. It took Duquesnoy a minute to get going against Patrick Williams in his UFC debut. Duquesnoy arguably lost the Terrion Ware fight. I didn't expect Duquesnoy to flame out as quickly as he did. He looked like a world beater in BAMMA. I knew Petr Yan was can't miss and I felt Duquesnoy could be that if he had some wrestling skills. Duquesnoy retiring last week doesn't reflect well on Stamann's resume. I think he knows if he's struggling to beat Terrion Ware (even though Ware is hard to beat even as a lower level fringe type fighter), he can't compete with anyone that is better than that, which is sad since Duquesnoy offensively was a marvel to watch. Petr Yan being somehow better offensively lessens the sting a little, but Duquesnoy losing to Stamann in a really borderline mediocre fight says a lot about where Duquesnoy was. The Caraway fight could have went either way. Hell, Terrion Ware may be Stamann's best win because Ware finds a way to be competitive against everyone. I think the Font fight in a few weeks will tell us more about Stamann than any of his previous fights. I would favor Faber over O'Malley in that he struggled against Ware and didn't look all that great. Soukhamthath should have beat him, but he made a giant bonehead move. Chito Vera is on a roll right now. It wouldn't shock me if Chito steamrolled O'Malley. I don't trust Thominhas at this point to beat Faber. I like Almeida offensively, but he is too flawed. Dodson would be a tossup. Just too inconsistent for me to pick him. He is 3-4 since going back up to 135.

So leaving out his teammate Garbrandt and Dillashaw who is on the shelf, I would take Dominick Cruz, Cejudo, Munhoz,  Raphael Assuncao, Aljamain, Yan, Marlon Moraes, Jimmie Rivera, Sandhagen, Font, Lineker, Simon, Wood, Chito Vera, and Barcelos. That's 15 guys. Sandhagen and Wood are still unfinished products. Chito has some bad losses. He is far from unbeatable. I would still pick him to lose against those guys, but I would not be shocked if he beat those three. So that is 11 or 12 guys I'm confident beat Faber.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[Elsalvajeloco]

Also: If Dom Cruz isn't coming back anytime soon, I would swap out Dom with Merab Dvalishvili. His fights aren't pleasant to watch and he wins by taking as little risk as possible, but I would favor him slightly over Faber.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Felicia Spencer vs. Cris Cyborg is almost a done deal for the Edmonton card. It will be the co-main event.

[The Natural]

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

21 minutes ago, The Natural said:

 

Ladd vs. GdR is the best WBW matchup you could make at this point not involving a title. So yeah, he had that coming. 

[hammerva]

Maybe 6 months isn't a good judge of anything but is about how long the UFC on ESPN deal has been.  Has their been any signs that it has helped the product?  I mean money wise it probably does because they got a huge check from them.  But because there is almost nothing on the non ESPN+ channels except PPV prelims I wonder if interest has risen, fallen, or stayed the same.   

[supremebve]

5 minutes ago, hammerva said:

Maybe 6 months isn't a good judge of anything but is about how long the UFC on ESPN deal has been.  Has their been any signs that it has helped the product?  I mean money wise it probably does because they got a huge check from them.  But because there is almost nothing on the non ESPN+ channels except PPV prelims I wonder if interest has risen, fallen, or stayed the same.   

Apparently, UFC 236 did well under 100K buys, and that may be the best card of the year.  It didn't have the most star power, but that is very low for a card that good.  If I had to guess, it is a huge hit to their PPV buys, but much better for their free cards.  I still think they're going to figure out a price point that allows access to all PPVs, but that is probably at least a year or so down the line.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

37 minutes ago, hammerva said:

Maybe 6 months isn't a good judge of anything but is about how long the UFC on ESPN deal has been. 

Been more like four months.

37 minutes ago, hammerva said:

Maybe 6 months isn't a good judge of anything but is about how long the UFC on ESPN deal has been.  Has their been any signs that it has helped the product?  I mean money wise it probably does because they got a huge check from them.  But because there is almost nothing on the non ESPN+ channels except PPV prelims I wonder if interest has risen, fallen, or stayed the same.   

I mean there hasn't been any real big major shows besides two ESPN shows, the first show which had ESPN prelims, and UFC 235 which was not a particularly stacked card. The Fort Lauderdale/Sunrise card was suppose to be on ESPN but when Romero fell out, they switched it to an ESPN+ card.

IMO You're only going to be able to tell the next time they have a big card. I think 239 would be more telling than the card next week. Cejudo/Moraes is a very interesting fight on paper and that card is great especially with Ferguson/Cerrone being added, but as a big PPV that will get people intrigued to sign up for the service just to watch said PPV? No, I don't see it. The prelims should do well though. All four of those fights are great and should be entertaining in some shape and form. 

However, if you compare this deal to the deal ESPN made when they brought in Top Rank, the only way to tell is to wait awhile. When Top Rank got on ESPN, they pulled stars that HBO made in Terence Crawford, Manny Pacquiao, and Vasyl Lomachenko off HBO and put them on ESPN. Every card they put on ESPN was a hit even with these young guys casuals never heard of top lining like Jose Ramirez and Oscar Valdez. That was a year and some change in. Now? They not even beating UFC ESPN prelim numbers in primetime on ESPN. They're doing Bellator numbers does when they have someone like Saad Awad in the main event with their best fighters. The lead ins suck so it's not all their fault, but every card isn't going to be after the goddamn Heisman trophy ceremony or some big time college basketball game. They're falling into the pattern they had when they were on truTV briefly where it's bootleg HBO Boxing After Dark from Barrera-McKinney in 96 and Zaragoza-Morales in 97 to about the early aughts but with a lot of pointless analysis/debating in between fights and video packages. That's awesome for hardcores like myself but nobody wants to watch that shit in big numbers. That's why they're tanking now besides the two stars they have who do really well.

UFC is in the opposite lane where they're purposely trying not to have a bunch of content on actual ESPN and saving the important content when they do have a big PPV or a big TV card. Plus, you're trying to transition to an entire new platform for paid content. So for me, it's way too early to tell.

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Elsalvajeloco

[supremebve]

27 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Been more like four months.

I mean there hasn't been any real big major shows besides two ESPN shows, the first show which had ESPN prelims, and UFC 235 which was not a particularly stacked card. The Fort Lauderdale/Sunrise card was suppose to be on ESPN but when Romero fell out, they switched it to an ESPN+ card.

IMO You're only going to be able to tell the next time they have a big card. I think 239 would be more telling than the card next week. Cejudo/Moraes is a very interesting fight on paper and that card is great especially with Ferguson/Cerrone being added, but as a big PPV that will get people intrigued to sign up for the service just to watch said PPV? No, I don't see it. The prelims should do well though. All four of those fights are great and should be entertaining in some shape and form. 

However, if you compare this deal to the deal ESPN made when they brought in Top Rank, the only way to tell is to wait awhile. When Top Rank got on ESPN, they pulled stars that HBO made in Terence Crawford, Manny Pacquiao, and Vasyl Lomachenko off HBO and put them on ESPN. Every card they put on ESPN was a hit even with these young guys casuals never heard of top lining like Jose Ramirez and Oscar Valdez. That was a year and some change in. Now? They not even beating UFC ESPN prelim numbers in primetime on ESPN. They're doing Bellator numbers does when they have someone like Saad Awad in the main event with their best fighters. The lead ins suck so it's not all their fault, but every card isn't going to be after the goddamn Heisman trophy ceremony or some big time college basketball game. They're falling into the pattern they had when they were on truTV briefly where it's bootleg HBO Boxing After Dark from Barrera-McKinney in 96 and Zaragoza-Morales in 97 to about the early aughts but with a lot of pointless analysis/debating in between fights and video packages. That's awesome for hardcores like myself but nobody wants to watch that shit in big numbers. That's why they're tanking now besides the two stars they have who do really well.

UFC is in the opposite lane where they're purposely trying not to have a bunch of content on actual ESPN and saving the important content when they do have a big PPV or a big TV card. Plus, you're trying to transition to an entire new platform for paid content. So for me, it's way too early to tell.

 

It is really early, especially since there hasn't been a Jon Jones/Conor McGregor fight yet.  If the next Jon Jones fight does under 100K, there will be some kind of adjustment.  The fact that you have to pay for a whole new service just to buy the PPVs is an issue that could come back and bite them in the ass.  If people are reluctant to pay for ESPN+, they'll have to reconsider some things.   

[Elsalvajeloco]

27 minutes ago, supremebve said:

It is really early, especially since there hasn't been a Jon Jones/Conor McGregor fight yet.  If the next Jon Jones fight does under 100K, there will be some kind of adjustment.  The fact that you have to pay for a whole new service just to buy the PPVs is an issue that could come back and bite them in the ass.  If people are reluctant to pay for ESPN+, they'll have to reconsider some things.   

I think a big problem, which wasn't much of an issue (just that people didn't watch which is an entirely different issue) in the Fox era, is the lack of shoulder programming. They don't even put the countdowns and weigh ins on ESPN from what I can tell. I dunno if that is ESPN's call, but it seems that way based on Top Rank having weigh ins on ESPN for some months and then they just stopped cold. It isn't so much important for Top Rank other than trying to have a big fight feel and hype etc, but if you're UFC and you are not on ESPN with your main cards at all in long stretches, you need that programming as a reminder that yes, you do still exist. The graphics on the scroll and ads every other ad break are good and all but that's just one tiny piece. You would think ESPN would be designing shows like a UFC Primetime, Road to the Octagon w/ the cool Ron Perlman narration, or some glorified Embedded style show that's not just fighters packing their shit to go to the airport or chilling with their kids. Top Rank has done some cool pieces with Mark Kriegel like the Don King vs. Bob Arum rivalry one (which could be its on 30 for 30) for the Jose Ramirez vs. Amir Imam card. They should be doing stuff like that. Obviously, there isn't a bunch of great narratives with meat on the bone like that with UFC since the modern era is 2000/2001. However, you have to do something if you're only doing ESPN main cards every once in awhile. Hopefully, that is something coming down the pipeline. You need awareness moreso than instruction on how to subscribe to ESPN+ and then buy a PPV. You can't bake a cake without buying all the ingredients first. In January, February, and March, having no programming like that was fine because you've already done a lot of good work letting people see UFC is going to be part of the family. Now you need to get to work on making folks believe it's going to be an integral part of the ESPN family besides doing a bunch of ESPN+ contents. And I get turning that Jacare/Hermansson card into an ESPN+ card because you don't want to skew the ESPN card average. Most of these cards really are not ESPN worthy cards like that. Knowing that though, you have to combat that bottleneck. Ngannou vs. Dos Santos is on 6/29. I should be seeing these big lugs all over the goddamn place with new programming you've introduced like the aforementioned stuff above in the next 4 weeks along with stuff for UFC 239. You have to make the effort.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Didn't know it was still on the Youtube channel, but apparently it is.

 

[AA484]

Finding replays (if they even exist) on the app is absolutely maddening.  Shouldn't any fight -- prelim or otherwise -- that aired on one of the ESPNs or the + service be on there?  PPV fights I can understand (although compared to how quick they put them on Fight Pass, it sucks), but to not even have prelims replayed two months after the fact?  Ridiculous.  Even their customer service reps couldn't tell me when or where to find them.

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, AA484 said:

Finding replays (if they even exist) on the app is absolutely maddening.  Shouldn't any fight -- prelim or otherwise -- that aired on one of the ESPNs or the + service be on there?  PPV fights I can understand (although compared to how quick they put them on Fight Pass, it sucks), but to not even have prelims replayed two months after the fact?  Ridiculous.  Even their customer service reps couldn't tell me when or where to find them.

I dunno about two months after the fact or even 48 hours after, but the replay (or if you're joining the action in progress) should be on the main page on ESPN+ at the top during and immediately after the event. It's the same way for Top Rank boxing on ESPN+. It's seperated into three or four different squares: Prelims, Main Card (if it's an ESPN+ plus exclusive), and the Spanish feed. If it aired on ESPN or ESPN2 it won't be there because ESPN+ isn't the same as ESPN or ESPN2. If you're tracking down old, old stuff, that's going to be hard due to sheer amount of content.

[AA484]

Yeah, I was looking for the UFC 236 prelims that aired on ESPN.  Pretty asinine that it is not available when I pay for both ESPN and ESPN+ and it's not available this long after the fact.